What if the end times already happened?

4thWatch

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ok I don't really believe this theory but I find it fascinating. I've had conversations with a few people who claim that the end times already have happened and that the anti Christ was ceaser.

Ok so let's say that's true, what then would the times we live in now be called and what's left to happen yet in the scriptures? Is it like the story's over and God just walked away and let the whole thing keep running while he's absent?

Anyway, I'm just having late night musings while on pain pills and listening to music and this thought popped into my head. Anyone have any thoughts?
 

Dave-W

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Gregory Thompson

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God is love. Love doesn't fight against the Ten Commandments.

ok I don't really believe this theory but I find it fascinating. I've had conversations with a few people who claim that the end times already have happened and that the anti Christ was ceaser.

Ok so let's say that's true, what then would the times we live in now be called and what's left to happen yet in the scriptures? Is it like the story's over and God just walked away and let the whole thing keep running while he's absent?

Anyway, I'm just having late night musings while on pain pills and listening to music and this thought popped into my head. Anyone have any thoughts?

Well .. there's this period of time in which the devil no longer deceives the nations, they have always been deceived and remain deceived, politician remains synonymous with liar. That's at least one thing that hasn't happened . but there are others.
 
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timewerx

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If the end times already happened, then we are the unsaved (dogs) outside the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom of God is already here and we just can't see it because it's in another dimension. And only those who are saved could go to and fro from it and they will be like angels from our perspective.

I think that's so cool!
 
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John 1:1 GodCZU

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If the end times already happened, then we are the unsaved (dogs) outside the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom of God is already here and we just can't see it because it's in another dimension. And only those who are saved could go to and fro from it and they will be like angels from our perspective.

I think that's so cool!
It certainly would go a long way to explain quite a few things. Churches turning from scripture. The politics around the world. America's fall.

Fascinating is right.

One question.
Hypothetically if this is the case.

What now?

BTW 4th watch, I love your avatar. ^_^
 
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timewerx

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One question.
Hypothetically if this is the case.

What now?

BTW 4th watch, I love your avatar. ^_^


Revelations does say, the leaves from the Tree of Life in the Kingdom, will bring healing to the nations.

So even if we are the "dogs" outside the Kingdom, our conditions will actually improve. Diseases like war, poverty, crime, corruption, etc will be gone. In the Book of Micah, says one day, wars and crimes will cease. Our society will not be destroyed, it will remain but changed dramatically.
 
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yesyoushould

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Well .. there's this period of time in which the devil no longer deceives the nations, they have always been deceived and remain deceived, politician remains synonymous with liar. That's at least one thing that hasn't happened . but there are others.

Thanks for the quote rep! Good thing Elijah and Enoch trust in it. :)
Don't forget David and the lion, Abraham and the sacrifice...Joseph and Noah, wouldn't want to cut them off.
 
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com7fy8

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I've had conversations with a few people who claim that the end times already have happened and that the anti Christ was ceaser.

Ok so let's say that's true, what then would the times we live in now be called and what's left to happen yet in the scriptures? Is it like the story's over and God just walked away and let the whole thing keep running while he's absent?
Well, for one thing . . . there is to be the thousand-year reign, then the final destruction of evil people > Revelation 20:7-10.

So, if the anti-Christ was Caesar, and then came the millennial, i.e., thousand-year, kingdom . . . now it has been more than a thousand years since Caesar. And we still have evil people on this planet. So, that does not fit, if my time understanding is correct.

Even so - - - let's say the anti-Christ has been here; now God will torch all the evil people, as Revelation 20:7-10 says. It won't touch us who are His people, because God has almighty self-control. You might consider how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were thrown into that fiery furnace but were not hurt, at all, by the flames; yet, the guys who threw them in there were killed > Daniel chapter 3. So, the fire did not hurt those men who honored God, but I can see those flames actually defended them.

Like this, if we are prepared by God, His fire can't hurt us, but will protect us.

So, people need to trust in Jesus (Ephesians 2:2), and trust our Father to correct us to become holy in His love (Hebrews 12:4-11).

Also, after the end-time ending of Satan's activity on this earth, there will be "a new earth" > Revelation 21:1. And Peter says what will happen to this old earth "and the works that are in it" > 1 Peter 3:10-16. "Obviously", God has not melted the whole earth and all its works, by means of "fire", and then resurrected it into "the glorious liberty of the children of God." (please see Romans 8:20-21)

So - - in case your friends are calling your attention back to Caesar, but they are not telling you about this, then I would say they are not helping your attention to where you belong.
 
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interpreter

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Good thread. The second coming was in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. The Great Tribulation of WW II has come and gone, and we are now fighting the Battle of Ar Mageddon which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry. The US, founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, is the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus, and is now dropping 100-pound "hailstones" on the latest face of the 7th head of Satan. Soon to come, Satan will be so thoroughly defeated that he wont be heard from again for a thousand years.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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I proposed writing a "Right Behind" book series once so I could have it on a shelf next to "Left Behind", and I could then turn both cheeks, butt that is another story.
 
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Imagican

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If the end times had already happened, then the END would have already taken place. Since it hasn't, then it's obvious that the END TIMES have not already taken place.
The answer is that the END TIMES are happening RIGHT NOW. Some of the predictions of Christ have already taken place. But there are still those that haven't.
The 'spirit of anti Christ' has existed ever since the time of His prophecy. But the entity has yet to manifest himself. For there has YET to be peace between Israel and the rest of the world for three and a half years.
But all the countries or powers are in place that were predicted by Daniel. the EU, Russia and America. So the branch is RIPE and it's only a matter of time before it starts to sprout it's leaves.
Preterists are simply 'wishful thinkers'. But in truth, couldn't be MORE confused.
Blessings,
MEC
 
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robycop3

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The view that the end-time events have already occurred is called PRETERISM, and I can tell you, it's all phony as a Ford Corvette! It focuses mainly on the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, as well as Revelation. All Christians are preterist to some degree, as we know SOME of those prophecies have come to pass, namely the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the flight of some Jews to Pella. But that's different from the false doctrine semi-officially called "preterism".

Preterism is divided into "full preterism", which is the belief that all Biblical prophecy is already fulfilled, and "partial preterism", whose advocates believe that all but the return of Jesus have occurred. Both views are incorrect.

We can quickly dispose of "partial preterism". In Matt. 24, Jesus speax of the 'great tribulation', and warns against believing anyone who says he has already come quietly or in secret. He then says, (Matt. 24, NASV)
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Obviously, those events have NOT yet occurred, so neither has the great trib, as they're to occur IMMEDIATELY after the trib. Thus, partial pret is proven false.

As for Nero or any other Caesar being the antichrist...the antichrist is to have a miracle-working false-prophet deputy, the "beast from the earth", and is to commit the "abomination of desolation", that is, enter the temple in Jerusalem, set up his statue, which the false prophet will supernaturally make speak, declare himself to be God, while the false prophet commands all to worship his boss and his statue. Obviously, no Caesar did that! Also, the AC & false prophet are to be cast alive into gehenna, without passing "GO!" or collecting $200 at Jesus' return. Every Caesar either died a natural death, or was assassinated. And the only then-future Caesar who entered Jerusalem at all was Titus when he led the Roman army that destroyed it.

The current preterist myth is mostly the work of Luis Del Alcazar (1554-1613), a Spanish Jesuit, who sought to dispel the idea, then prevalent among Protestants, that the line of Popes was the antichrist. That idea, is, of course, wrong also, but Alcazar could have dispensed with it by simply pointing out facts of history. instead, he compounded a set of false ideas into a whole set of false doctrines.

Preterists simply CANNOT account for in history the events they say have transpired. These are PROFOUND events, and would NOT have been overlooked by chroniclers had they already occurred, plus, the earth would have been forever altered. Preterism is simply.....FALSE!
 
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parousia70

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The view that the end-time events have already occurred is called PRETERISM, and I can tell you, it's all phony as a Ford Corvette! It focuses mainly on the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, as well as Revelation. All Christians are preterist to some degree, as we know SOME of those prophecies have come to pass, namely the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the flight of some Jews to Pella. But that's different from the false doctrine semi-officially called "preterism".

Can't have a "PHONY view that ALL Christians subscribe to in some degree.

Preterism is divided into "full preterism", which is the belief that all Biblical prophecy is already fulfilled, and "partial preterism", whose advocates believe that all but the return of Jesus have occurred. Both views are incorrect.

Yet you claim All Christians are preterist to some degree

We can quickly dispose of "partial preterism".

Except for your claim that All Christians are preterist to some degree

As for Nero or any other Caesar being the antichrist...the antichrist is to have a miracle-working false-prophet deputy, the "beast from the earth", and is to commit the "abomination of desolation", that is, enter the temple in Jerusalem, set up his statue, which the false prophet will supernaturally make speak, declare himself to be God, while the false prophet commands all to worship his boss and his statue. Obviously, no Caesar did that!

Antichrist of scripture nowhere is prophesied to do any of those things.
There is NO scripture that says "ANTICHRIST" does any of those things you claim. Not even one.

Preterists simply CANNOT account for in history the events they say have transpired. These are PROFOUND events, and would NOT have been overlooked by chroniclers had they already occurred, plus, the earth would have been forever altered. Preterism is simply.....FALSE!

Yet again, you claim ALL Christians are PRETERISTS to some degree.... your claim is that all Christians adhere to a FALSE doctrine to some degree?? Really? Even you?

One Question:
Matthew 21:33-45

Fulfilled?
 
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robycop3

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Can't have a "PHONY view that ALL Christians subscribe to in some degree.

All Christians know Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed in 70 AD as prophesied by jesus.



Yet you claim All Christians are preterist to some degree

there's a difference in knowing what prophecies are actually already fulfilled, and GUESSING which ones are.



Except for your claim that All Christians are preterist to some degree

The "official" doctrines of preterism say all or almost all Biblical prophecy is fulfilled.



Antichrist of scripture nowhere is prophesied to do any of those things.
There is NO scripture that says "ANTICHRIST" does any of those things you claim. Not even one.

The antichrist is just another name for "the man of sin", "that Wicked", "son of perdition", "the beast", etc. All those titles apply to one man, who will be the epitome of evil.



Yet again, you claim ALL Christians are PRETERISTS to some degree.... your claim is that all Christians adhere to a FALSE doctrine to some degree?? Really? Even you?

This is a silly game of semantics in which I won't engage further. I believe you know what the prevailing doctrine of preterism is.

One Question:
Matthew 21:33-45

Fulfilled?

Yes. The KOG is open to Jew and gentile alike.
 
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parousia70

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All Christians know Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed in 70 AD as prophesied by jesus.

Can you point me to those prophesies?
I personally have engaged with several Christians here on these boards who assert that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are NOWHERE prophesied in scripture, I of course disagree with them, but the assertion that ALL Christians believe such is demonstrably false.

there's a difference in knowing what prophecies are actually already fulfilled, and GUESSING which ones are.

Who do you believe is authorized to proclaim a specific event is the fulfillment of prophesy?
Anyone?
The antichrist is just another name for "the man of sin", "that Wicked", "son of perdition", "the beast", etc. All those titles apply to one man, who will be the epitome of evil.

Respectfully, such a view is taught NOWHERE in scripture. Such is PURELY MAN MADE Tradition. Indeed, Such a view is actually polar opposite to what is EXPLICITLY taught about antichrist in scripture.

Yes. [Matt 21:33-45 already fulfilled]

Really?? Do you know this or are you merely guessing?

Matt 21:40-41
40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Since you claim this has already been fulfilled,
When do you claim "The Lord of the Vineyard Came" and accomplished these things?
 
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robycop3

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Can you point me to those prophesies?
I personally have engaged with several Christians here on these boards who assert that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are NOWHERE prophesied in scripture, I of course disagree with them, but the assertion that ALL Christians believe such is demonstrably false.

Those who don't believe it don't know any history.

The destruction of the temple if prophesied by Jesus in Matt. 24:1-2.
jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21:20.



Who do you believe is authorized to proclaim a specific event is the fulfillment of prophesy?
Anyone?

Yes, if one sees an event that matches what is prophesied.


Respectfully, such a view is taught NOWHERE in scripture. Such is PURELY MAN MADE Tradition. Indeed, Such a view is actually polar opposite to what is EXPLICITLY taught about antichrist in scripture.

Just-as-respectfully, it actually IS taught, from Daniel thru Revelation. He is first mentioned in Daniel 9:27, then in daniel 11:21-45, Matt. 24:15, and in Rev. 13, where his deputy, the miracle-working false prophet, is introduced.

By studying these Scriptures, we see what the "abomination of desolation" is...the false prophet will command that a statue of his boss be made, which the FP will have set up in the temple which'll be built in Jerusalem, where the FP will supernaturally cause the statue to speak. Then, he & his boss will enter the temple where the AC will commit the AOD by declaring himself to be God, and the FP will command all to worship his boss & his statue.



Really?? Do you know this or are you merely guessing?

Matt 21:40-41
40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Since you claim this has already been fulfilled,
When do you claim "The Lord of the Vineyard Came" and accomplished these things?

OOPS! Read the wrong chapter!

No, He has NOT yet returned.
 
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parousia70

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Those who don't believe it don't know any history.

The destruction of the temple if prophesied by Jesus in Matt. 24:1-2.

Correct, after which the Apostles asked Him "When?" it would happen.
Do you believe He answered that question anywhere?

jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21:20.

Also correct - yet isn't Luke 21:20 completely parallel to Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14?

COMPARE THIS:
Mark 13:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

TO THIS:

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

AND TO THIS:

Matthew 24:15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

In all three of these parallel, synoptic passages from the very same discourse given by Jesus, we find:
1) the SAME "When"
2) the SAME "Desolation"
3) the SAME "Then"
4) The SAME time to "Flee"
5) The SAME "Woe" to Pregnant and nursing mothers
6) The SAME "Those Days"

Do we not?
Parallel, Synoptic passages can not be interpreted to have polar opposite meanings from one another, can they?

If your claim is that Luke 21:20 prophesies the time of Jerusalem's 66-70 AD destruction, How can you claim Mark 13:14 and Matthew 24:15 do not, when they are clearly PARALLEL passages from the exact SAME discourse given By Jesus speaking of the same event?


Just-as-respectfully, it actually IS taught, from Daniel thru Revelation. He is first mentioned in Daniel 9:27, then in daniel 11:21-45, Matt. 24:15, and in Rev. 13, where his deputy, the miracle-working false prophet, is introduced.

By studying these Scriptures, we see what the "abomination of desolation" is...the false prophet will command that a statue of his boss be made, which the FP will have set up in the temple which'll be built in Jerusalem, where the FP will supernaturally cause the statue to speak. Then, he & his boss will enter the temple where the AC will commit the AOD by declaring himself to be God, and the FP will command all to worship his boss & his statue.

And again I will point out that Daniel, Matthew and Revelation say noting about antichrist. Not one thing.

There is, however, actual specific teaching on what antichrist is, which can be found clearly taught in 1 & 2 John, and nowhere in that specific, actual teaching on antichrist are any of the descriptions you apply to The Beast, Man of Sin, False Profit, etc....

The teaching that the Beast, man of sin, false profit are one singular human being correctly, biblically identified as "antichrist" is found ONLY in the traditions of men, and can be found nowhere in scripture.

OOPS! Read the wrong chapter!

No, He has NOT yet returned.

So the Kingdom has not yet been taken away from the Saducees and Pharisees?
They were not destroyed miserably and their kingdom given to another nation who would bear its fruits, as Jesus said they would be in that passage, where the Pharisees understood He was speaking about them??
 
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robycop3

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Correct, after which the Apostles asked Him "When?" it would happen.
Do you believe He answered that question anywhere?



Also correct - yet isn't Luke 21:20 completely parallel to Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14?

COMPARE THIS:
Mark 13:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

TO THIS:

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

AND TO THIS:

Matthew 24:15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

In all three of these parallel, synoptic passages from the very same discourse given by Jesus, we find:
1) the SAME "When"
2) the SAME "Desolation"
3) the SAME "Then"
4) The SAME time to "Flee"
5) The SAME "Woe" to Pregnant and nursing mothers
6) The SAME "Those Days"

Do we not?
Parallel, Synoptic passages can not be interpreted to have polar opposite meanings from one another, can they?

If your claim is that Luke 21:20 prophesies the time of Jerusalem's 66-70 AD destruction, How can you claim Mark 13:14 and Matthew 24:15 do not, when they are clearly PARALLEL passages from the exact SAME discourse given By Jesus speaking of the same event?

Yes, they're all speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, but Jesus only mentioned the destruction of the temple once, in Matt. 24.

However, the AOD did NOT then occur. The 'beast' was not then come, nor his false prophet, and no one made a statue, set it up in the temple, and supernaturally made it speak. Nor was the siege/destruction of J the "great tribulation".




And again I will point out that Daniel, Matthew and Revelation say noting about antichrist. Not one thing.

There is, however, actual specific teaching on what antichrist is, which can be found clearly taught in 1 & 2 John, and nowhere in that specific, actual teaching on antichrist are any of the descriptions you apply to The Beast, Man of Sin, False Profit, etc....

The teaching that the Beast, man of sin, false profit are one singular human being correctly, biblically identified as "antichrist" is found ONLY in the traditions of men, and can be found nowhere in scripture.

I don't believe anyone could be more 'antichrist' than to declare himself to be God, and to accept worship. So, the implication is clear this evil man will be the worst human antichrist of all time.



So the Kingdom has not yet been taken away from the Saducees and Pharisees?
They were not destroyed miserably and their kingdom given to another nation who would bear its fruits, as Jesus said they would be in that passage, where the Pharisees understood He was speaking about them??

Jesus has NOT yet returned.

While Jesus preached mainly to Jews, we see He also accepted gentiles into the KOG while He was here, as well as afterwards. And quite a few people from many nations spread the Gospel after the Pharisees were finished. But Jesus has NOT yet returned.
 
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parousia70

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Yes, they're all speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, but Jesus only mentioned the destruction of the temple once, in Matt. 24.

So far so good......

However, the AOD did NOT then occur. The 'beast' was not then come, nor his false prophet, and no one made a statue, set it up in the temple, and supernaturally made it speak. Nor was the siege/destruction of J the "great tribulation".

You are interpreting parallel passages in polar opposite fashion from one another.

since you agree they are all speaking of the same event, and you believe that event was the 66-70 AD siege of Jerusalem, You must therefore hold Luke's interpretation of the AOD as authoritative, namely his assertion that Armies surrounding Jerusalem is SYNONYMOUS with the timing of the AOD Jesus told them to look for, and when they saw it it was THEN time to flee.

I don't believe anyone could be more 'antichrist' than to declare himself to be God, and to accept worship. So, the implication is clear this evil man will be the worst human antichrist of all time.

Then Show me from Scripture... take the ACTUAL teaching on antichrist found in 1 & 2 John, and show me what part of THOSE scriptures this end time tyrant fulfills.

Jesus has NOT yet returned.

While Jesus preached mainly to Jews, we see He also accepted gentiles into the KOG while He was here, as well as afterwards. And quite a few people from many nations spread the Gospel after the Pharisees were finished. But Jesus has NOT yet returned.

Please share your interpretation of Matt 21:33-45 then.
Did Jesus lie to the Pharisees when He told them they would be destroyed "When the Lord of the Vineyard comes"??
 
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robycop3

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You are interpreting parallel passages in polar opposite fashion from one another.

Not at all.

since you agree they are all speaking of the same event, and you believe that event was the 66-70 AD siege of Jerusalem, You must therefore hold Luke's interpretation of the AOD as authoritative, namely his assertion that Armies surrounding Jerusalem is SYNONYMOUS with the timing of the AOD Jesus told them to look for, and when they saw it it was THEN time to flee.

He didn't say they were synonymous. He said when they saw J surrounded by armies, it was timeta skeedaddle. We know that Vespasien arrived with a roman army 7 surrounded J, but he heard tidings from Rome & returned there to be named Caesar. The Jews who heeded Jesus' warning then fled to the mountain fortress of Pella. Titus then returned with the army & they destroyed J & the temple.

The AOD did NOT then occur. Titus had no miracle-working mfalse-prophet deputy, nor did he have a statue of himself set up in the temple, nor did he declare himself God & have a deputy command all to worship him & his statue. Such events would not have been overlooked by those who chronicled the sack of J & the destruction of the temple.



Then Show me from Scripture... take the ACTUAL teaching on antichrist found in 1 & 2 John, and show me what part of THOSE scriptures this end time tyrant fulfills.

I agree there are and were many antichrists, but "that Wicked" shall be the ultimate AC. He will deny everything that's been worshipped as God, including the REAL God, which is in accordance with the Scriptures to which you allude.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
(1 John 2:22)



Please share your interpretation of Matt 21:33-45 then.
Did Jesus lie to the Pharisees when He told them they would be destroyed "When the Lord of the Vineyard comes"??

Easy way to settle this: Please provide **PROOF** that Jesus has returned. Remember, He is to return in great power & glory.(Matt. 24:30) History would NOT have missed it!
 
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