Who was this expert? There are problems if it was Samuel L. Mitchell or Professor Charles Anthon.Withwonderingawe said:
Do you happen to have a copy of these charactures that Harris took to N.Y.?
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I just figured it out
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Do you happen to have a copy of these charactures that Harris took to N.Y.?
Why would Harris make up the story? Why would he place his reputation at risk as he was well know high profile person who was admired and looked up to in his community? Joseph Smith didn't tell Harris to go and have the writings and translation confirmed it was Harris himself that came up with the idea. Joseph Smith didn't have any problem with it. If he was a fraud I would think he would have not allowed any such confirmation. Even though MH had scribed for the prophet he still had doubts and the reason for his trip. He was putting up $3000 for the printing of the Book of Mormon. If all this was a lie why would MH continue? Even after he had left the church he never denied the result of his trip or his witness to the Gold Plates. You know those that do not want to believe any of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon can cast any shadow of doubt they can. You can come up with all sorts of detracting innuendoes but it is a fact he went. The professors he visited said he did. If they told MH that it was a fake he would have dropped it like a bomb. Your version does not make sense.
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seekingsolace
Bah
I would imagine the same way Charles Manson got his followers. Often you will see it's not all too difficult to gather a following. I am sure these death cults convinced themselves of the 'special' message of their leader also. This is not an attack on you, just an observation.
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I'm not saying Harris made up the story. In fact it is true, I know he went to N.Y. with the charactures. In fact I can't find anything to dissagree with in your post above(I even checked on the figure of $3000,you're correct) . I'm just wondering who his experts were, as I may be able to give insights into what he/they said.
It would be rather super if you could find a copy of these characters Harris took to N.Y. People would probably like to see what was on the plates.
It would be rather super if you could find a copy of these characters Harris took to N.Y. People would probably like to see what was on the plates.
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I found the following for you at http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/2009/01/martin-harris-visits-3-noted-linguists.html
"There are two independent sources stating that Harris did indeed seek the opinion and advice of [Luther] Bradish [in Albany] concerning the transcription. The first source is Pomeroy Tucker. ... Tucker reports that Harris 'sought the interpretation and bibliological scrutiny of such scholars as Hon. Luther Bradish, Dr. Mitchell, Professor Anthon and others.' ..."
"The second source is a statement made by John H. Gilbert in September 1892. ... According to Gilbert, Harris 'stopped at Albany and called on Lt. Governor Bradish ...' (Furthermore, the statement by W.W.Phelps, that Harris 'went to New York City by way of Utica and Albany,' strengthens the possibility that Harris consulted Bradish about the transcription.)" [ATP 329-330]
Professor Anthon wrote two letters, approximately seven years apart, and in each of the two letters he states that Martin Harris arrived with a note of introduction from Dr. Mitchell.
"Some years ago, a plain, apparently simple-hearted farmer called on me with a note from Dr. Mitchell, of our city, now dead, requesting me to decipher, if possible, the paper which the farmer would hand me." Letter to E. D. Howe, February 17, 1834. [CHC1:103]
"Many years ago--the precise date I do not now recollect,--a plain-looking countryman called upon me with a letter from Dr. Samuel L. Mitchell, requesting me to examine, and give my opinion upon a certain paper, marked with various characters, which the doctor confessed he could not decipher, and which the bearer of the note was very anxious to have explained." . . .
"As Dr. Mitchell was our 'Magnus Appollo' in those days, the man called first upon him; but the Doctor, evidently suspecting some trick, declined giving any opinion about the matter, and sent the countryman down to the college, to see, in all probability, what the 'learned pundits' in that place would make of the affair." Letter to T. W. Coit, April 3, 1841. [CHC
According to Joseph Smith's history, Martin Harris indicates that he saw Professor Anthon before seeing Dr. Mitchill.
"He [Professor Charles Anthon] replied 'I cannot read a sealed book' I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthony had said respecting both the characters and the translation." [PJS 1:285-286 and HC 1:20]
If, as Professor Anthon states, Dr. Mitchell initially declined giving any opinion on the matter, it is reasonable to believe that Martin Harris might return to see if Dr. Mitchell would be willing to make some definite statement after Professor Anthon had first expressed an opinion. This would tend to reconcile the differences in the accounts about the sequence of the visits.1:104-105, 106]
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Found this at Mormonfair
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Anthon_transcript
More than one copy of the "Anthon transcript" exists
The oldest known copy (pictured here) is in the possession of the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). The paper seems to be of the same age and type as that used by Joseph Smith for the Book of Mormon translation.[6]
A copy of what may be the Anthon Transcript—not to be confused with a Hofmannforgery which was later produced. Original in Library Archives, Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, The Auditorium, Independence, Missouri.
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I don't know of any characters that are know to exist. From my research much of the evidence of early church ended up in Joseph Smiths wife Emma. Including the pypra that the book of Abraham was taken from. So there were much of the artifacts that were lost. Also professor Anthon was convincing enough for Harris to put the money up for the publishing. Harris claims that anton wrote out a certificate stating that the characters were Egyptian chaldaic Assyrian and the translation was a more pure translation. When Anthon asked Harris where he got the characters he was told that it was taken from an ancient record that was delivered by an angel. Anthon asked for the certificate back and tore it up stating that there were no such things as angels. He told MH to bring the record to him and he would translate it. MH told him that he couldn't and that part of it was sealed. Where Anthon remarked that he could not reasons sealed book.
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I only read the Wikipedia entry, and it indicated a lot of inconsistency in Harris' behavior and story. For example, the expert that Harris asked to verify the writing samples from the golden plates (Charles Anthon, professor of linguistics from Columbia College) claimed to have told Harris that he was being swindled. Harris claimed that professor Anthon initially authenticated the writing sample. But how could any expert authenticate writing samples from an unknown culture? From that incident alone, I would conclude that Harris was trying to give a hoax more credibility by misquoting an expert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Harris_(Latter_Day_Saints)
The nice thing about Wikipedia is that anybody can suggest corrections to the content. I don't know the exact procedure, but I think that would tend to make Wikipedia more balanced than many sources. I know people like to criticize Wikipedia, but I like it.
What is truly amazing to me about Mormonism is how it has developed into a normal healthy religion today. As an atheist, I don't believe in the Golden Tablets, but look at Mormonism today. Nobody can criticize the culture of Mormonism; the criticisms can only be directed at beliefs that seem silly to outsiders such as the Golden Tablets. If Mormonism started 1000 years ago instead of 200 years ago, then these beliefs would seem ancient and less silly.
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Having the Gold plates is not going to give people faith that the Book of Mormon is the word of God na person needs to read ponder and pray about whether or not it is the word of God. If you believe that God still loves us just as he did in ancient times and that God should give us more than we have then km telling you he has. God came to a young boy and said he was to do a great and marvelous work. That was the bringing forth the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the church Christ establish on earth. But read the book. Read it with an open mind and without all the knowledge gleaned from the critics of the church. If a person is sincere in really wanting the truth God will reveal it through the power of the Holy Ghost. If they do not they are just flapping their gums. Wasting time. But if what we are saying is true don't you think it would be important to find out?
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“….claimed to have told Harris that he was being swindled. Harris claimed that professor Anthon initially authenticated the writing sample….
Was Harris helping with a hoax or was Anthon trying to save his reputation?
Much of the anti stuff you might read about the Smith family or any of the others like Martin Harris were written many years later and is a lot of hearsay which would not hold up in court.
The very first anti Mormon pamphlet was written by Doctor Philastus Hurlbut who had been excommunicated for adultery not once but twice. He was not a doctor at all that was his first name, his mother had high ambitions for him. He ran around Palmary getting quotes from anyone who would say anything bad about the Smiths that he could. He wrote Mormonism Unvailed, which had to published by a man named E.D. Howe because Hurlbut had such a bad reputation. Much of what he collected has been discounted like the Smiths were lazy.
“All who became intimate with them during this period, unite in representing the general character of old Joseph and wife, the parents of the pretended Prophet, as lazy, indolent, ignorant and superstitious—having a firm belief in ghosts and witches; the telling of fortunes; pretending to believe that the earth was filled with hidden treasures, buried there by Kid or the Spaniards.”
I’m going to give you a little lesson in reading anti-mormon propaganda. The following is from by C. Clark Julius, MPS The Philalethes - August 1987. http://www.lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml
“He had been born twenty-one years earlier in Sharon, Vermont. His father, also named Joseph, and his mother, Lucy, had started their marriage auspiciously with Lucy's ample dowry of one thousand dollars. But the dowry was quickly spent and the farm was overgrown with weeds…”
How does this writer know the Smith Farm ‘was overgrown with weeds’ mmm? He’s perpetuating the lazy notion from the Hurlbut quotes over a hundred years ago.
Yes they suffered some business loses and they were poor but they were hard working. They lost that farm in Vermont because of an unusually cold summer caused by a volcano going off in Indonesia. “On 4 June 1816, frosts were reported in Connecticut, and by the following day, most of New England was gripped by the cold front. On 6 June 1816, snow fell in Albany, New York” (wik) So no one’s crops grew and lot’s of people lost their farms.
Again from Julius “Joseph's father moved his family to a farm near Palmyra, New York, in the western part of the state. There he fared little better than in Vermont. The Smith family often went hungry during the winter months. As soon as they were able to work, the Smith children had to help support their family. Consequently, Joseph obtained little schooling.”
How does he know they went hungry? Never heard that one before. Yes like all kids in those days the Smith children were taught to work.
Here’s a line from Hurlbut again;
“They were particularly famous for visionary projects, spent much of their time in digging for money which they pretended was hid in the earth; and to this day, large excavations may be seen in the earth, not far from their residence, where they used to spend their time in digging for hidden treasures.”
Now here’s the truth; When they moved to Palmyra they had to cleared their land of
“…. many tons of rock and cut down about six thousand trees, a large percentage of which were one hundred feet or more in height and from four to six feet in diameter. (dug out the stumps also) Then they fenced their property, which required cutting at least six or seven thousand ten-foot rails. They did an enormous amount of work before they were able even to begin actual daily farming…Furthermore, in order to pay for their farm, the Smiths were obliged to hire themselves out as day laborers. Throughout the surrounding area, they dug and rocked up wells and cisterns, mowed, harvested, made cider and barrels and chairs and brooms and baskets, taught school, dug for salt, worked as carpenters and domestics, built stone walls and fireplaces, flailed grain, cut and sold cordwood, carted, washed clothes, sold garden produce, painted chairs and oil-cloth coverings, butchered, dug coal, and hauled stone. And, along the way, they produced between one thousand and seven thousand pounds of maple sugar annually. "Laziness" and "indolence" are difficult to detect in the Smith family” Mormonfair
Yes the Smiths did a lot of digging and I bet they joked a lot about digging for treasure as they did it.
Little is known about Martin Harris’s early life except that he inherited 150 arcs which sounds like his family did well. He was in the War of 1812 as a first sergeant. He was a hard worker and had 320 acres at one time. He helped build the Erie Canal and was elected to many positions. I read through the wik article, what you have is hearsay, some body said that some one said that Martin said. There are no writings of Harris ever saying anything crazy unless you think claiming to see an angel is crazy.
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I don't mean to start an apologetics debate, but I'm confused about your assessment of the claim about professor Anthon. According to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Harris_(Latter_Day_Saints)
How could professor Anthon have possibly verified the authenticity of a copy of characters from the golden plates? Even if Harris had provided the actual golden plates, Anthon could not have verified their authenticity. Harris claimed that Anthon performed the impossible, so obviously he was not being honest IMO.
You own post in #25 seems to present a much more plausible description of what happened. Harris brought Anthon his copy of the writing, and Anthon politely said he could not authenticate.
So I'm a bit confused about who claimed what, and I'm not sure what you think about it.
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@withwonderingawe , I just wanted to clarify my post. Anthon couldn't have simply authenticated the copied snippet from the golden plates; Anthon would have needed to authenticate something more specific like:
- these characters are very similar to Hebrew characters from 600 BCE
- these characters are very similar to Mesoamerican writing from so and such culture at so and such time period
Anthon couldn't have authenticated that these characters were actual writing from an unknown culture speaking an unknown language using an unknown alphabet. That makes no sense. (I hope that makes my question in the previous post clearer.
)
- these characters are very similar to Hebrew characters from 600 BCE
- these characters are very similar to Mesoamerican writing from so and such culture at so and such time period
Anthon couldn't have authenticated that these characters were actual writing from an unknown culture speaking an unknown language using an unknown alphabet. That makes no sense. (I hope that makes my question in the previous post clearer.
)
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It does not matter whether the book of Mormon is errant or inerrant. When you take the entire body of Mormon doctrine and practice, it is contrary to Bible Christianity. One could go into great detail as to why Mormonism is regarded as a cult, with Masonic roots. Suffice it to say that it has "another Jesus" and "another Gospel'.
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All you have to do is read the Holy Bible and then compare it with Mormon writings and teachings. There's no such thing as an "anti-Mormon cult". There is Bible Christianity and then there are cults such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. Jerald and Sandra Tanner were dedicated Mormons who studied the Bible and discovered the truth. You can do the same. (Sandra's ancestor was Brigham Young).
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It's difficult for me to see the true intent of a text like the Book of Mormon when there is so much contradiction surrounding the core ideas of the religion already.
With regard to other Christians being nasty to Mormons about their faith; that's par for the course unless they find in you an ally for social conservatism. The moment that alliance is no longer useful, you resume being a threat. It resembles the rest of inter-denominational conflict within Christianity and you can see the patterns all over the boards here.
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I have known Sandra and Jerald for many years. Jerald was a jerk I like Sandra. I have read all their research. Much of it was really wel done but they also had gaps which they made distortions and at times lied to get to promote their agenda. They did do a lot of good by exposing some weaknesses in history. That I appaud. Jerald became too bitter. Because she is related to BY means very little. They like to promote themselves as being true believers. They have their own dirty laundry. They also are wealthy because of their hate for the church. Plenty of people out there who would buy their stuff so they could destroy a persons faith. That is something they will be judged for. How many have people now don't believe in anything? They are going to have to face that before their maker. I told Jerald this one tim he was being nasty.
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