Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

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bbbbbbb

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I don't know that Purgatory isn't dogmatic. Wasn't it defined at Trent?

The Council of Trent did not declare any dogma. It did define a multitudes of doctrines, however, but did not officially dogmatize any. Thus, Purgatory is a doctrine, not a dogma. Because it is a doctrine, on the order of the seven consecrated skulls of John the Baptist, are Catholics free to disbelieve in it?
 
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patricius79

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I apologize for mis-stating Catholic teaching before. The Fathers and Schoolmen were quite right to say that Mary gave birth miraculously, without pain, as she conceived miraculously, and did not lose any of her body's Virginal integrity in giving birth to Christ. She was a Virgin conceiving, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin Perpetual, just as St. Augustine said:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin


Here is the article that helped me to do better honor to my Beloved Mother of God, Mary, the New Eve:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2010/12/i-stand-corrected.html

Here is the statement which confirms that this is true from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm


I praise God that he has led me to a deeper belief in the glory of the Mother of God, the Mother particularly of each one of us.
 
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patricius79

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Where on earth did you get this idea from? That Jesus was born from Mary's side is not the Catholic tradition. Father Juniper Carol, OFM, sums up what the Patristic Fathers Doctors, and Magisterium have taught about the virginity of Mary during the birth of Jesus.

"At the appropriate time, Our Blessed Lord left the womb of His Mother through the natural channels but in a miraculous way, that is, without in any manner opening any part of Mary’s body. In other words, there was no dilatation of the normal passage, no opening of the vagina, no breaking of the virginal hymen."

I believe it was St. Ambrose in the late 4th century who first spoke of the virginitas inpartu by citing Ezekiel 44.

“Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed. He said to me: ‘This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.'” … Who is this gate, if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when he was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity (quando virginali fusus est partu, et genitalia virginitatis claustra non solvit). (15) … There is a gate of the womb, although it is not always closed; indeed only one was able to remain closed, that through which the One born of the Virgin came forth without the loss of genital intactness (per quam sine dispendio claustrorum genitalium virginis partus exivit)."
De institutione virginum

The Catechism of the Council of Trent


'For in a way wonderful beyond expression or conception, he is born of his Mother without any diminution of her maternal virginity. As he afterwards went forth from the sepulcher while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room in which his disciples were assembled, although “the doors were closed” (Jn. 20:19), or, not to depart from natural events which we witness every day, as the rays of the sun penetrate the substance of glass without breaking or injuring it in the least: so, but in a more incomprehensible manner, did Jesus Christ come forth from his mother’s womb without injury to her maternal virginity...

'To Eve it was said: “In pain you shall bring forth children” (Gen. 3:16). Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate, she brought forth Jesus the Son of God, without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.'


You may as well think that we believe Jesus entered through Mary's side when she conceived him. The truth is that both the conception and birth of Jesus were miraculous within the course of nature. The prophet Isaiah foretells this (7:14):

Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?

66, 7-8


The rays of the sun which penetrate through glass without damaging it consist of physical properties, so you can discard your false notion of any Docetism here.

PAX

:angel:

I'm ignorant and unworthy, but I am with Ambrose, Augustine, all the early Church fathers who agree with them, the Catholic Church, the Council of Trent, and the Prophet Isaiah.

Beautiful. I hope people go back and read your posts.
 
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prodromos

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Very simple. The Catholic Church has consecrated seven partial and/or full skulls as being the genuine skull of John the Baptist.
From what I have been able to determine, they are all different parts of the same skull. None are complete. What confuses people is that the head shaped reliquary for each of the pieces is of a complete head, so people assume that it contains a complete skull.
This is consistent with many of the reliquaries I have come across. Reliquaries in the shape of the Saints hand will often only have one finger or even just a knuckle bone because the rest of the relics have been distributed to many other churches and monasteries
 
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bbbbbbb

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From what I have been able to determine, they are all different parts of the same skull. None are complete. What confuses people is that the head shaped reliquary for each of the pieces is of a complete head, so people assume that it contains a complete skull.
This is consistent with many of the reliquaries I have come across. Reliquaries in the shape of the Saints hand will often only have one finger or even just a knuckle bone because the rest of the relics have been distributed to many other churches and monasteries

Although a few of the relics are indeed of portions of a skull (including the same portions of a skull), there are some entire skulls which are venerated.

This is a complete skull at San Silvestro in Capite -
200px-St_johns_head.jpg


This is a complete skull at Amiens Cathedral in France -
upload_2015-9-4_6-44-49.jpeg


Here is a top of a skull in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul -
john-the-baptist-skull.jpg


Here is a skull in the Residenz in Munich, Germany -
head_john_baptist_residenz_munich.jpg


You are fortunate in that, being Eastern Orthodox, you can dismiss most of the skulls as being Catholic and Islamic fakes. Catholics, of course, have an entirely different conundrum because they have authenticated at least two complete skulls as being the actual skulls of John the Baptist, not to mention various portions of skulls including at least two crania.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm ignorant and unworthy, but I am with Ambrose, Augustine, all the early Church fathers who agree with them, the Catholic Church, the Council of Trent, and the Prophet Isaiah.

Beautiful. I hope people go back and read your posts.

So, you have chosen, along with your church, to believe that Jesus Christ did not actually enter this world as a real, physical baby, but as a specter which passed through Mary's side. Interesting. I have a bridge in Brooklyn which is for sale.
 
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prodromos

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Although a few of the relics are indeed of portions of a skull (including the same portions of a skull), there are some entire skulls which are venerated.
Nope, not one of them is entire.
This is a complete skull at San Silvestro in Capite
No, it is only a small piece of the skull embedded in a model of the skull. [edit] I have since learned that it it the back of the skull.
This is a complete skull at Amiens Cathedral in France
Wrong again. The visible bone is all there is, just the front of the skull. The rest is a model of the missing parts.
Here is a top of a skull in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul
Which is missing from the other two.
Here is a skull in the Residenz in Munich, Germany
This is the only one where the portion of the skull is not visible, but the reliquary takes the shape of a complete skull, just like the first two
You are fortunate in that, being Eastern Orthodox, you can dismiss most of the skulls as being Catholic and Islamic fakes. Catholics, of course, have an entirely different conundrum because they have authenticated at least two complete skulls as being the actual skulls of John the Baptist, not to mention various portions of skulls including at least two crania.
I have had a pretty good look at whatever photos are available and am satisfied that none of the pieces overlap. I presume that what ever was missing is wrapped up in Munich.
 
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prodromos

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So, you have chosen, along with your church, to believe that Jesus Christ did not actually enter this world as a real, physical baby, but as a specter which passed through Mary's side.
Jesus was no spectre when he entered the locked room where the disciples gathered.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Jesus was no spectre when he entered the locked room where the disciples gathered.

Quite true. Shall we then conclude that Jesus was born into this world with His resurrected body and that He did not actually have a physical body at all like ours?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Nope, not one of them is entire.

No, it is only a small piece of the skull embedded in a model of the skull.

Wrong again. The visible bone is all there is, just the front of the skull. The rest is a model of the missing parts.

Which is missing from the other two.

This is the only one where the portion of the skull is not visible, but the reliquary takes the shape of a complete skull, just like the first two

I have had a pretty good look at whatever photos are available and am satisfied that none of the pieces overlap. I presume that what ever was missing is wrapped up in Munich.

Rather than derail this thread further, I will conclude with my belief that even if scientific testing of the various bones showed different DNA types, it would not affect your faith in the slightest. Therefore, it is pointless to continue this aspect of the tread.
 
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Quite true. Shall we then conclude that Jesus was born into this world with His resurrected body and that He did not actually have a physical body at all like ours?

Here's some history from Schaff:

It was felt—and this feeling is shared by many devout Protestants—to be irreconcilable with her dignity and the dignity of Christ, that ordinary children should afterward proceed from the same womb out of which the Saviour of the world was born. The name perpetua virgo, ἀεὶ παρθένος, was thenceforth a peculiar and inalienable predicate of Mary. After the fourth century it was taken not merely in a moral sense, but in the physical also, as meaning that Mary conceived and produced the Lord clauso utero.783783 Tertullian(De carne Christi, c. 23: Virgo quantum a viro; non virgo quantum a partu), Clement of Alex. (Strom. vii. p. 889), and even Epiphanius (Haer. lxxviii. § 19, where it is said of Christ:Οὗτός ἐστινἀληθῶς ἀνοίγωνμήτρανμητρός), were still of another opinion on this point. Ambroseof Milan is the first, within my knowledge, to propound this miraculous view (Epist. 42 ad Siricium). He appeals to Ezek. xliv. 1-3, taking the east gate of the temple, which must remain closed because Jehovah passed through it, to refer typically to Mary.“Quos est haec porta, nisi Maria? Ideo clausa, quia virgo. Porta igitur Maria, per quam Christus intravit in hunc mundum.” De inst. Virg. c. 8 (Op. ii. 262). So Ambrosealso in his hymn, ” A solis ortus cardine,“and Jerome, Adv. Pelag. l. ii. 4. The resurrection of Jesus from the closed tomb and the entrance of the risen Jesus through the closed doors, also, was often used as an analogy. The fathers assume that the stone which sealed the Saviour’s tomb, was not rolled away till after the resurrection, and they draw a parallel between the sealed tomb from which He rose to everlasting life, and the closed gate of the Virgin’s womb from which He was born to earthly life. Jerome, Comment. in Matth. xxvii. 60: ” Potest novum sepulchrum Mariae virginalem uterum demonstrare.” Gregory the Great: ” Ut ex clauso Virginis utero natus, sic ex clauso sepulchro resurrexit in quo nemo conditus fuerat, et postquam resurrexisset, se per clausas fores in conspectum apostolorum induxit.” Subsequently the catholic view, consistently, removed every other incident of an ordinary birth, such as pain and the flow of blood. While Jeromestill would have Jesus born under all ” naturae contumeliis,“John Damascenus says (De orth. fide, iv. 14): ” Since this birth was not preceded by any [carnal] pleasure, it could also have been followed by no pangs.” Here, too, a passage of prophecy must serve as a proof: Is. lxvi. 7: ” Before she travailed, she brought forth,”&c. This, of course, required the supposition of a miracle, like the passage of the risen Jesus through the closed doors.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.x.viii.html

Scripture says Christ opened the womb, while the EV dogma states the womb remained closed. Amazing.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Here's some history from Schaff:

It was felt—and this feeling is shared by many devout Protestants—to be irreconcilable with her dignity and the dignity of Christ, that ordinary children should afterward proceed from the same womb out of which the Saviour of the world was born. The name perpetua virgo, ἀεὶ παρθένος, was thenceforth a peculiar and inalienable predicate of Mary. After the fourth century it was taken not merely in a moral sense, but in the physical also, as meaning that Mary conceived and produced the Lord clauso utero.783783 Tertullian(De carne Christi, c. 23: Virgo quantum a viro; non virgo quantum a partu), Clement of Alex. (Strom. vii. p. 889), and even Epiphanius (Haer. lxxviii. § 19, where it is said of Christ:Οὗτός ἐστινἀληθῶς ἀνοίγωνμήτρανμητρός), were still of another opinion on this point. Ambroseof Milan is the first, within my knowledge, to propound this miraculous view (Epist. 42 ad Siricium). He appeals to Ezek. xliv. 1-3, taking the east gate of the temple, which must remain closed because Jehovah passed through it, to refer typically to Mary.“Quos est haec porta, nisi Maria? Ideo clausa, quia virgo. Porta igitur Maria, per quam Christus intravit in hunc mundum.” De inst. Virg. c. 8 (Op. ii. 262). So Ambrosealso in his hymn, ” A solis ortus cardine,“and Jerome, Adv. Pelag. l. ii. 4. The resurrection of Jesus from the closed tomb and the entrance of the risen Jesus through the closed doors, also, was often used as an analogy. The fathers assume that the stone which sealed the Saviour’s tomb, was not rolled away till after the resurrection, and they draw a parallel between the sealed tomb from which He rose to everlasting life, and the closed gate of the Virgin’s womb from which He was born to earthly life. Jerome, Comment. in Matth. xxvii. 60: ” Potest novum sepulchrum Mariae virginalem uterum demonstrare.” Gregory the Great: ” Ut ex clauso Virginis utero natus, sic ex clauso sepulchro resurrexit in quo nemo conditus fuerat, et postquam resurrexisset, se per clausas fores in conspectum apostolorum induxit.” Subsequently the catholic view, consistently, removed every other incident of an ordinary birth, such as pain and the flow of blood. While Jeromestill would have Jesus born under all ” naturae contumeliis,“John Damascenus says (De orth. fide, iv. 14): ” Since this birth was not preceded by any [carnal] pleasure, it could also have been followed by no pangs.” Here, too, a passage of prophecy must serve as a proof: Is. lxvi. 7: ” Before she travailed, she brought forth,”&c. This, of course, required the supposition of a miracle, like the passage of the risen Jesus through the closed doors.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.x.viii.html

Scripture says Christ opened the womb, while the EV dogma states the womb remained closed. Amazing.

Amazing, indeed!
 
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patricius79

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I'm continuing to try to understand the Lord's teaching about the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of God.

Here is a four-part article (below) which I am finding helpful. It talks about many things, including how we know that the "brothers" of the Lord are relatives, not actual siblings. James, Jude, and their brothers are the sons of "the other Mary", the wife of Clopas. And about why Mary said "how can this be, since I do not know man?". And how Joseph did not believe that Mary might have fornicated/adulterated, but rather he believed himself unworthy and unable to be husband of the Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of the Son of the Most High. It explain how Mary as the New Eve (as the early Church saw her), was a Virgin because--like the New Adam--she was completely devoted to God, and had thus sacrificed her Virginity to God so that she could be totally devoted to Him, and in turn because of this she become the New Eve, the Mother of all humankind.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=9757&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=1553810
 
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prodromos

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Rather than derail this thread further, I will conclude with my belief that even if scientific testing of the various bones showed different DNA types, it would not affect your faith in the slightest. Therefore, it is pointless to continue this aspect of the tread.
It would not affect my faith because my faith is not centred on the relics of the Saints, but rather on the incarnation, death and resurrection of our Lord. If the different parts of the skull were shown to have different DNA then I would of course have to dismiss some of the relics. WIll you continue to perpetuate the silly myth that they are seven complete skulls despite my findings to the contrary?

I have edited post 1267 to add my finding that the relic at San Silvestro is actually the back of the skull.
 
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I'm continuing to try to understand the Lord's teaching about the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of God.

Here is a four-part article (below) which I am finding helpful. It talks about many things, including how we know that the "brothers" of the Lord are relatives, not actual siblings. James, Jude, and their brothers are the sons of "the other Mary", the wife of Clopas. And about why Mary said "how can this be, since I do not know man?". And how Joseph did not believe that Mary might have fornicated/adulterated, but rather he believed himself unworthy and unable to be husband of the Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of the Son of the Most High. It explain how Mary as the New Eve (as the early Church saw her), was a Virgin because--like the New Adam--she was completely devoted to God, and had thus sacrificed her Virginity to God so that she could be totally devoted to Him, and in turn because of this she become the New Eve, the Mother of all humankind.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=9757&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=1553810

Do you know when Mary was first given the title, "New Eve"?
 
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seashale76

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This thread is still going on 64 pages later, and I guarantee nobody has convinced anyone else of anything. I participated somewhere back there. I'll stick with what the Church (including the Reformers) has believed for over 2000 years, and that was that the Theotokos remained a virgin. I think those that disagree need to realize their view is the new one.
 
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bbbbbbb

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This thread is still going on 64 pages later, and I guarantee nobody has convinced anyone else of anything. I participated somewhere back there. I'll stick with what the Church (including the Reformers) has believed for over 2000 years, and that was that the Theotokos remained a virgin. I think those that disagree need to realize their view is the new one.

You are correct in your first assertion and incorrect on your second, if you had kept up with the posts here. The second is only true if you accept the definition of virginity that some of the ECF's argued (an unbroken hymen) and that Jesus Christ, therefore, was not born physically, but mystically emerged from Mary's right side. Other ECF's, however, held to the apostolic tradition that Jesus Christ was a physical being, as well as being God, and, therefore, entered this world through physical birth, in the process of which Mary's hymen was broken and her virginity ended for all time.
 
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