And off to jail she goes [Kentucky county clerk]

Alithis said:

nope they cannot actually marry ..
only legally marry on a piece of paper .

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Welcome to the discussion.

you see christian marriage is the coupling of male and female to become one and produce offspring.. so you can wave the piece of paper all you want .. It will never equate to a christian marriage thus is remain null and void forever in the eyes of God and thus in our eyes . now that doe not mean you (they) should be treated as inferior humans -that's wrong . but it remains the truth . So this lady ,from a true christian perspective cannot "give licence " to marry a same sex couple- its like asking a goat to marry a motor bike .

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The discussion has nothing to do with christian marriage. It's only about that piece of paper. Perhaps if attenion was paid to the actual discussion, we wouldn't have folks invoking goats and motorcycles.

ken777 said:

iyho

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And in the judge's opinion. Which is why she's in jail.

ken777 said:

Yeah, like a 30 minute drive to another office.

Neither you nor I have the right to tell other people what they should think or believe.

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What if all the county clerks in Kentucky and the neighboring states decided to no longer issue marriage licenses to anyone because of their deeply held personal or religious convictions? There are numerous feasible scenarios of a couple seeking a license to marry that someone could find objection to based on the tenets of their religion. Divorcees remarrying. Being unequally yolked.

All she needs to simply do is resign. With all the publicity that has been generated, chances are high that those who do support her would help her to find a new one.

Archaeopteryx said:

How about removing Davis?

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How about applying workplace religious accommodation?

ken777 said:

Well you just did ... again!

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I did no such thing. She can keep thinking that. But such thinking is not in line with the duties of her office and invites a whole host of problems for the people of the county, the county government, and herself. So she should resign.

Thinking or truly believing something does not insulate you from the consequences of such a position. And in certainly doesn't insulate you from just being objectively wrong.

AirPo said:

And in the judge's opinion. Which is why she's in jail.

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But not in God's.

Being in jail for her beliefs puts her among some rather elevated company going right back to Peter & Paul.

ken777 said:

How about applying workplace religious accommodation?

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We already established that there are limits to that and that denying someone their legal rights clearly goes beyond those limits.

ken777 said:

But not in God's.

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Whose God? There are many liberal Christians who feel differently about "God's opinion."

Artemis97 said:

What if all the county clerks in Kentucky and the neighboring states decided to no longer issue marriage licenses to anyone because of their deeply held personal or religious convictions? There are numerous feasible scenarios of a couple seeking a license to marry that someone could find objection to based on the tenets of their religion. Divorcees remarrying. Being unequally yolked.

All she needs to simply do is resign. With all the publicity that has been generated, chances are high that those who do support her would help her to find a new one.

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Now, now, now ... calm down and stop being alarmist. This is one woman in a state that until a few weeks ago banned ssm. A little period of adjustment and conflict resolution is all that is needed, not jailing a person and bringing it to world wide attention (I am not in the US).

You break the law, you go to jail. Shrug.

Archaeopteryx said:

Whose God? There are many liberal Christians who feel differently about "God's opinion."

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Her God. That's what workplace religious accommodation is all about.

ken777 said:

Her God. That's what workplace religious accommodation is all about.

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Can I refuse to do my job by appealing to "God's opinion"?

ken777 said:

Her God. That's what workplace religious accommodation is all about.

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Sure. And I'm sure you'll be happy for Muslims to quote the Koran and advocate for Sharia law, and for Jewish employees to put up the Star of David and openly state that the Messiah has yet to come. And then you can have the Calvinists telling all the other Christians that they aren't really Christians, because you have to be chosen by God, and perhaps the Pentecostals can refuse to speak to the public other than in tongues. Uh, no. I want my workplace to remain religion free.

trunks2k said:

I did no such thing. She can keep thinking that. But such thinking is not in line with the duties of her office and invites a whole host of problems for the people of the county, the county government, and herself. So she should resign.

Thinking or truly believing something does not insulate you from the consequences of such a position. And in certainly doesn't insulate you from just being objectively wrong.

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How many times do I have to say "workplace religious accommodation". With a little patience, WRA can provide solutions to this situation that are acceptable to all. It's not as if anyone is pregnant and has to get married in a hurry.

Archaeopteryx said:

Can I refuse to do my job by appealing to "God's opinion"?

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Yes ... and legally.

Over her years in that office... I wonder how many unrepentant, divorced, adulterers she's issued marriage licenses to?

Hetta said:

You break the law, you go to jail. Shrug.

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The judge in this case had other options.

ken777 said:

But not in God's.

Being in jail for her beliefs puts her among some rather elevated company going right back to Peter & Paul.

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It's not about God's opinion. We are a secular nation, so God doesn't get a say. Furthurmore, a county clerk's interpertation of God's opinion is not a valid defense. Hence, she's in jail!

ken777 said:

The judge in this case had other options.

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Really? How is that post consistant with the fact that the judge put her in jail?

ken777 said:

Now, now, now ... calm down and stop being alarmist. This is one woman in a state that until a few weeks ago banned ssm. A little period of adjustment and conflict resolution is all that is needed, not jailing a person and bringing it to world wide attention (I am not in the US).

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In these discussions here people who support this woman have made preposterous comparisons to the Nazis and slavery, so I don't think my post was lacking in calm or alarmist......

It was a hypothetical scenario not intended to be taken literally, but to make a point about how many people, if not most of us, have sincerely held beliefs. If everyone in public servant positions was permitted to cite them as reasons to fail to perform their jobs they're being paid for, society couldn't function properly.

She has brought the matter to the world's attention, she has escalated the conflict when reasonable resolutions have been offered to her, she has in essence chosen to go to jail. If she had quietly resigned back in June when she felt her religious beliefs prevented her from performing her job in its expanded capacity, perhaps a few headlines would have been made but not to the same global extent, and it would have quickly died down. She was graciously relieved of having to issue same-sex marriage licenses herself. All she had to do was agree to not interfere with five deputy clerks who had told the federal judge they'd issue them in her stead. Judge Bunning had asked Davis' six deputy clerks whether they would issue the licenses, and despite some of them holding the same religious beliefs as Davis, five told him they would. The only one who didn't agree to was Davis' son. Despite the willingness of the clerks and the reprieve it would offer Davis, she still refused to allow them to issue the licenses.