Annhilationism or Eternal Torment?

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 3, 2015

Poor Beggar said:
True. But who is he?

Bill Weiss is a man who claims to have had a vision of Hell, where demons tormented him, and other people burned in a lake of fire eternally. He claims to have spoken with Jesus directly at the end of the vision, when he was told that the purpose of the vision was to motivate him and other Christians to spread the Gospel ardently, because so much is at stake.

For the life of me, I can't find anything wrong with his account. Everything fits reasonably well with the Bible, and the purpose of the vision also seems valid. I have no way of proving him either truthful or untruthful, even if his account is Biblically accurate. People who reject his account usually have a priori reasons for it, such as they just don't accept visions, or they don't accept the idea of eternal torment.

Poor Beggar · Sep 3, 2015

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Bill Weiss is a man who claims to have had a vision of Hell, where demons tormented him, and other people burned in a lake of fire eternally. He claims to have spoken with Jesus directly at the end of the vision, when he was told that the purpose of the vision was to motivate him and other Christians to spread the Gospel ardently, because so much is at stake.

For the life of me, I can't find anything wrong with his account. Everything fits reasonably well with the Bible, and the purpose of the vision also seems valid. I have no way of proving him either truthful or untruthful, even if his account is Biblically accurate. People who reject his account usually have a priori reasons for it, such as they just don't accept visions, or they don't accept the idea of eternal torment.

I'll have to look into it.

Pammalamma · Sep 4, 2015

Short Timer said:
That "Breath of God" that became your "living soul" will live as long as God lives.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I just keep thinking that if Hell is not terribly bad and scary, why would Jesus have to die to save us from it? And why did he talk about it so much? We hear, "Jesus talked mostly about love," but if you actually do a word search, Jesus talked more about Hell than he did about love. So, I think it must be eternal. Eternal life is what we want, and what is the opposite of that?

faroukfarouk · Sep 4, 2015

Pammalamma said:
I just keep thinking that if Hell is not terribly bad and scary, why would Jesus have to die to save us from it? And why did he talk about it so much? We hear, "Jesus talked mostly about love," but if you actually do a word search, Jesus talked more about Hell than he did about love. So, I think it must be eternal. Eternal life is what we want, and what is the opposite of that?

I've been surprised at how many professing evangelicals have wanted to turn aside from the historic Biblical viewpoint on this.

Pammalamma · Sep 4, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
I've been surprised at how many professing evangelicals have wanted to turn aside from the historic Biblical viewpoint on this.

It is all based on believers choosing to love the sins of their loved ones instead of God. If we truly loved God with all our hearts, we would never want anyone to sin, because it would be an offense to our beloved.

faroukfarouk · Sep 4, 2015

Pammalamma said:
It is all based on believers choosing to love the sins of their loved ones instead of God. If we truly loved God with all our hearts, we would never want anyone to sin, because it would be an offense to our beloved.

Yes, first and foremost we are 'accepted in the beloved One', which involves a strong moral and spiritual underpinning.

Avid · Sep 4, 2015

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Bill Weiss is a man who claims to have had a vision of Hell...

He wrote a book titled "23 Minutes in Hell" which I bought for my wife after reading some of it. I have read it, though, has been a number of years since I got it. I can't say it is exactly true, that this happened to him as he declared, but it is thought provoking, in the least. As you said, I did not find much reason to say it could not be what he described.

Short Timer · Sep 4, 2015

Goodbook said:
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

yes, for the "body made from dust",

But that soul isn't "dust".

Mr 9:44 Where their worm (soul) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mr 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mr 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Poor Beggar · Sep 4, 2015

Goodbook said:
I think that just means hell burns for a long time. It doesnt mean forever and ever but a thousand years is a long time for us.

After that it will be compeltely detroyed both death and hades will gone. All those outside the gate will be gone. Cos it will have burned itself out. And that is what it means by eternal. Forever finito.

What about these:

Poor Beggar said:
Matt. 25:46 tells us that the eternal hell described in Matt. 18:8 is an eternal punishment. It isn't that the fire burns for ever and we are simply burned up and gone, but we are continually punished. That is what is being described in Matt. 25:46.
Rev. 14:11 again tells us their torment is forever. If they are annihilated (all traces of them have ceased to exist), they wouldn't be able to experience torment forever.

Avid · Sep 4, 2015

Goodbook said:
... In revelation it does talk about a thousand years millenium...

The Great White Throne Judgment happens some time after that Millennium described there. There are many verses in scripture that describe the torments of Hell lasting forever with out ceasing, without mercy, and without end. The last three chapters of the Revelation specifically deal with that.

Pammalamma · Sep 4, 2015

Here is something I find very interesting about that 23 Minutes in Hell book. If I remember correctly, when he calls on the name of Jesus, he is immediately delivered from Hell. If that is an accurate depiction of Hell, then if you think about it, annihilation is less merciful, because it takes away the chance to call on the name of Jesus and be delivered from Hell. Spiritual death is based on stubbornness--Jesus said he was like the snake lifted up by Moses. Consider why you would not look at a snake. Probably because you didn't believe it had the power to save you. These are only thoughts, not doctrine.

Other thoughts: God is an infinite and eternal being. Hurting him could potentially cause infinite, eternal pain. So, what kind of punishment is the right one for offending an infinite, eternal God?

Furthermore, consider which burns worse: Hellfire or standing in the presence of Almighty God with your sins still on you? I think Hell might seem cold by comparison. When I consider this, I realize that everything, even Hell itself, can be viewed as God's mercy.

Most importantly, we can trust God, because we know he is good. In Revelation 16, God judges the earth by turning the water into blood.

"4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,
you who are and who were;
6 for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
7 And I heard the altar respond:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”"

My trust in God leads me to believe that if you and I were up there with the angels, and could see everything God sees, past, present, and future, we would say the same thing of God's judgments. Not only would we accept them, we would heartily agree and give a loud cry of "You are just in these judgments, O Holy One." So, even if God does give the damned eternal suffering, if we knew what God knows, I think we would be quite in agreement with God, and there would be no questioning at all of his actions.

Short Timer · Sep 4, 2015

Goodbook said:
The soul is not a worm. I think that just means hell burns for a long time. It doesnt mean forever and ever but a thousand years is a long time for us. In revelation it does talk about a thousand years millenium.

After that it will be compeltely detroyed both death and hades will gone. All those outside the gate will be gone. Cos it will have burned itself out. And that is what it means by eternal. Forever finito. Ghosts will not be around heaven trying to get in when the new earth and heaven are complete.

Hell is not something anyone likes to think about but in heaven we WILL be with our loved ones and God will do what is right. If you havent accepted Jesus before you take your last breath you will not know Him.

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Worms live in the earth, the earth produces their "bread of life",

They never eat of that "Spiritual bread" that came down from heaven.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:

Jesus compared physical things to spiritual things, because in some way physical things represents something spiritual.

Poor Beggar · Sep 4, 2015

Short Timer said:
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Worms live in the earth, the earth produces their "bread of life",

They never eat of that "Spiritual bread" that came down from heaven.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:

Jesus compared physical things to spiritual things, because in some way physical things represents something spiritual.

Wow, you totally just taught me something. I live for these moments. The whole eating earth versus eating bread thing. Wow.

Bluelion · Sep 4, 2015

God answered this for you He said.

Rev 20
10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide.12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

You see God says no one gets out of the lake of fire and they will be tormented day and night forever. If they were destroyed how could they be tormented? But Jesus said do not fear man who can kill the body but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. People think because He said destroy that means gone but no they are lost forever no one gets out of the lake of fire its why its the second death, there is no escape, so they are destroyed in a sense.

Avid · Sep 4, 2015

ron4shua said:
http://biblehub.com/isr/2_peter/2.htm
12But these, like natural unreasoning beasts, having been born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheme that which they do not know, shall be destroyed in their destruction,

13being about to receive the wages of unrighteousness, deeming indulgence in the day of pleasure, spots and blemishes, revelling in their own deceptions while they feast with you,

14having eyes filled with an adulteress, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable beings, having a heart trained in greed, children of a curse,

15having left the right way they went astray, having followed the way of Bil‛am the son of Be‛or, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,

16but he was rebuked for his transgression: a dumb donkey speaking with the voice of a man restrained the madness of the prophet.

17These are fountains without water, clouds driven by a storm, to whom the blackest darkness is kept forever.

Roast in a fire pit for ever and ever ?

Yes, a dark place without light. A place of torment. Their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.

II Peter 2
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Take note that, IF all sinners that are not redeemed in this life are incinerated, one person's incineration would be much like another person's incineration. However, to know the way of righteousness, and to begin following the way of the LORD, but then to turn back, and to embrace unrighteousness, deserves something worse in the words of the Apostle Peter.

For the people you mentioned in quoting II Peter 2, there is a worse thing waiting for them at the judgment before the great white throne (Rev.20) than had they no understanding and just blindly followed their own lusts. These people are mentioned twice in Hebrews - chapter 6 & chapter 10. They are worse than your average run-of-the-mill drunkards, thieves and adulterers. They know better, and they make motions to follow God's right way, but have returned to their base lusts and desires.

Bluelion · Sep 4, 2015

Avid said:
Yes, a dark place without light. A place of torment. Their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.

II Peter 2
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Take note that, IF all sinners that are not redeemed in this life are incinerated, one person's incineration would be much like another person's incineration. However, to know the way of righteousness, and to begin following the way of the LORD, but then to turn back, and to embrace unrighteousness, deserves something worse in the words of the Apostle Peter.

For the people you mentioned in quoting II Peter 2, there is a worse thing waiting for them at the judgment before the great white throne (Rev.20) than had they no understanding and just blindly followed their own lusts. These people are mentioned twice in Hebrews - chapter 6 & chapter 10. They are worse than your average run-of-the-mill drunkards, thieves and adulterers. They know better, and they make motions to follow God's right way, but have returned to their base lusts and desires.

I think you understand this but I wanted to make it clear these people you speak of are not saved nor were they ever saved, but taste of the fruit of heaven Heb 6 but have not swallowed the fruit. Meaning accepted Jesus.They do know God is God but like demons rebelling.If you disagree with me let me know I'll start a thread as to not go off topic and we can debate it.

Poor Beggar · Sep 4, 2015

Avid said:
Yes, a dark place without light. A place of torment. Their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.

II Peter 2
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Take note that, IF all sinners that are not redeemed in this life are incinerated, one person's incineration would be much like another person's incineration. However, to know the way of righteousness, and to begin following the way of the LORD, but then to turn back, and to embrace unrighteousness, deserves something worse in the words of the Apostle Peter.

For the people you mentioned in quoting II Peter 2, there is a worse thing waiting for them at the judgment before the great white throne (Rev.20) than had they no understanding and just blindly followed their own lusts. These people are mentioned twice in Hebrews - chapter 6 & chapter 10. They are worse than your average run-of-the-mill drunkards, thieves and adulterers. They know better, and they make motions to follow God's right way, but have returned to their base lusts and desires.

Do you think the audience of Hebrews is saved? I used to, but now I think they were progressing towards saving faith but had come to have an intellectual understanding that Christ's once for all sacrifice did what the annual atonement never could do. Because they know the truth they're being warned to commit to trusting in the Lord's saving sacrifice and not turn back to a dead law. Looking carefully at the structure of Heb. 10:14 changed my mind. If they had salvation it would be forever, and yet they're being warned of eternal judgment. I think they were still intellectualizing it.

ScottA · Sep 5, 2015

Poor Beggar said:
I thought I'd start a new thread if that's okay. One of our brothers has introduced the concept of annhilationism on another thread and I don't want to hijack that thread. I was thinking maybe we could discuss this as a community. Is eternal Torment something we've been eisegetically reading into the text, or exegetically drawing from it?

It is not we who read eternal torment into the text, but that it is written.

Likewise, God has written His story in Time for our understanding of what was timeless from His own perspective.

So, no, we can only take Him at His word, on the one hand, and yet would be remiss if we did not hear Him out on the other hand...and come to understand that "forever" is not a reference to time, but of permanence.

Bluelion · Sep 5, 2015

pat34lee said:
Except you aren't dealing with the scriptures. Opinions don't matter.

John 6

35 Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 10

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.30 The Father and I are one.”

Hows that for God's word? ARe you calling Jesus a lair? because it sound like your saying what belongs to Jesus can be lost, but here Jesus clearly says none are lost to him that are in fact His. So are you calling Jesus a lair?

Bluelion · Sep 5, 2015

pat34lee said:
It doesn't say they experience the punishment, and eternal separation from God IS punishment.

What do you think hell is? separation from God and all that is from God, I.E pain ins not from God but from sin, there is no pain in Heaven so hell is filled with pain. God created rest, on the seven day God rested, so that is in Heaven, i.e there is no rest day or night in hell, it says there torment what do you think that means Just what it says, those two things alone are torment but there is much more, a place with no rest from pain alone is great torment, a place with out rest is great torment.

Annhilationism or Eternal Torment?

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