Romans 10:17, The Bible contains all knowledge in the spiritual gifts!

random person · Aug 31, 2015

Not every Christian in the 1st century had a spiritual gift.

But the purpose of a gift was to provide God's new knowledge.

In the New Testament and in the early church, spiritual gifts were used and a means to teach the Gospel.

Miracles were always accompanied by Gospel teaching.

The purpose of the gift of tongues was to speak in unknown languages.

"Tongues" is another word for languages. Nothing else.

The purpose of gifts was to perfect or complete the truth.

The Bible provides all knowledge contained in the spiritual gifts.

The Bible replaced the spiritual gifts.

Romans 10:17, says we get faith from the Bible.

Tongues are not needed because we have the Bible.

Tongues were to be used in a orderly fashion (2 or 3 in order) and not even to be spoken without an interpreter.

Biblicist · Sep 1, 2015

random person said:
Not every Christian in the 1st century had a spiritual gift.

But the purpose of a gift was to provide God's new knowledge.

In the New Testament and in the early church, spiritual gifts were used and a means to teach the Gospel.

Miracles were always accompanied by Gospel teaching.

The purpose of the gift of tongues was to speak in unknown languages.

"Tongues" is another word for languages. Nothing else.

The purpose of gifts was to perfect or complete the truth.

The Bible provides all knowledge contained in the spiritual gifts.

The Bible replaced the spiritual gifts.

Romans 10:17, says we get faith from the Bible.

Tongues are not needed because we have the Bible.

Tongues were to be used in a orderly fashion (2 or 3 in order) and not even to be spoken without an interpreter.

Interesting, of the 12 lines that you provided it seems that only line 12 has any bearing on the Scriptures; I would imagine that even the hard-core cessationist John MacArthur would cringe with many of your points.

I must admit that your recent posts on a few threads on this forum have certainly been . . . umm . . . entertaining . . . or maybe just bemusing.

PS. I failed to address the key point of your thread in that even though the Scriptures certainly provide us with the guidelines for the proper use of tongues and prophecy within the congregational setting, there is still much that we can gain from experiencing these Operations of the Spirit which help us to better understand what Paul has told us.

random person · Sep 2, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Interesting, of the 12 lines that you provided it seems that only line 12 has any bearing on the Scriptures; I would imagine that even the hard-core cessationist John MacArthur would cringe with many of your points.

I must admit that your recent posts on a few threads on this forum have certainly been . . . umm . . . entertaining . . . or maybe just bemusing.

PS. I failed to address the key point of your thread in that even though the Scriptures certainly provide us with the guidelines for the proper use of tongues and prophecy within the congregational setting, there is still much that we can gain from experiencing these Operations of the Spirit which help us to better understand what Paul has told us.

Preaching the Gospel always accompanied the operations of the Spirit.

These operations of the Spirit are no longer required because it has been perfected with the Bible.

What is the point of holding a church service where everyone is speaking gibberish and nobody knows what is being said?

What is the point of speaking gibberish if the church isn't edified by it?

And what is the point of praying to God for the gift of Tongues when God distributed these gifts individually as He willed. Not as how someone prayfully willed. I don't ever recall there ever being a choice in what gift a individual is distributed. I don't recall ever reading about anyone in the Bible praying for tongues? Yet, I have been watching videos of Charismatics sharing their stories of how long they prayed for tongues some over the course of years... before being answered with "unintelligible gibberish".

Why can't any of you interpret the gibberish you speak? Don't you want to know what this gibberish means?

The Charismatic movement doesn't even know the purpose of tongues is, and that it isn't even the greatest gift at all either.

It is a means for the 1st century saints to share the Gospel to all nations and all tongues:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Biblicist · Sep 2, 2015

random person said:
Preaching the Gospel always accompanied the operations of the Spirit.

This is certainly not the case as most congregational meetings that are comprised of Believers where they would not need to present the Gospel to themselves.

These operations of the Spirit are no longer required because it has been perfected with the Bible.

Oh, so praying in the Spirit (tongues) has now been replaced with Bible doctrine, that's novel. As for the Office of healings, how has the Scripture negated this activity of the Holy Spirit. As prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with teaching then how can the Written Word replace it. By the way, should we abolish prayer, which involves God communicating back to the originator of the prayer?

Then there is the Operation of faith, maybe you can find that in the Scriptures as I know that no-one else has been able to; then theres wisdom and knowledge which certainly cannot be found in the Scriptures - by the way, have you actually attend a church?

What is the point of holding a church service where everyone is speaking gibberish and nobody knows what is being said?

Who does this? Unless you are referring to the many (far too many) Pentecostal churches that allow their members to both sing and speak in the Spirit during times of praise and worship, if so, then I fully agree that this practice is absolutely wrong.

What is the point of speaking gibberish if the church isn't edified by it?

Very good, your learning! That's why each word of praise that is given in a tongue must be immediately interpreted.

And what is the point of praying to God for the gift of Tongues when God distributed these gifts individually as He willed. Not as how someone prayfully willed. I don't ever recall there ever being a choice in what gift a individual is distributed. I don't recall ever reading about anyone in the Bible praying for tongues? Yet, I have been watching videos of Charismatics sharing their stories of how long they prayed for tongues some over the course of years... before being answered with "unintelligible gibberish".

As this point has been discussed to the point of distraction, then you should probably go back and read what I have said about this.

Why can't any of you interpret the gibberish you speak? Don't you want to know what this gibberish means?

Wow . . . I could never imagine the Holy Spirit giving me an interpretation of maybe an hours worth of praying in the Spirit, where if he did I don't think that we humans would be capable of bearing what he had to say to the Father . . . that would be pretty scary.

The Charismatic movement doesn't even know the purpose of tongues is, and that it isn't even the greatest gift at all either.

Now your being plain silly.

It is a means for the 1st century saints to share the Gospel to all nations and all tongues:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

As I've said on numerous occassions, where you need to get into the habit with engaging with what people say to you, there is a growing (almost) universal agreement (by both Pentecostals and prudent cessationists) that tongues has nothing to do with presenting the Gospel, never has and never will.

random person · Sep 3, 2015

What is the purpose of tongues to you?

Which btw were always a human language and give as a sign to unbelievers not the gibberish we hear today.

The 1st Century saints weren't engaged in all of appearance of pagan ektasis rituals.

What are the benefits of tongues in the church services and to you personally?

Wiccans, Kundalini Yoga, Mormons, the New Age, participate in the very same ritualized worship as you pentacostals do.

Biblicist · Sep 4, 2015

random person said:
What is the purpose of tongues to you?

Which btw were always a human language and give as a sign to unbelievers not the gibberish we hear today.

The 1st Century saints weren't engaged in all of appearance of pagan ektasis rituals.

What are the benefits of tongues in the church services and to you personally?

Wiccans, Kundalini Yoga, Mormons, the New Age, participate in the very same ritualized worship as you pentacostals do.

As the points that you have presented have been addressed in great detail then I think that your collection of odd questions probably belongs over on the 'humour forum' or something similar. If you cannot grasp the material that has been presented to you (or maybe you really don't care in the first place), then you should probably avoid interacting on those threads which address aspects of Pneumatology.

random person · Sep 5, 2015

Biblicist said:
As the points that you have presented have been addressed in great detail then I think that your collection of odd questions probably belongs over on the 'humour forum' or something similar. If you cannot grasp the material that has been presented to you (or maybe you really don't care in the first place), then you should probably avoid interacting on those threads which address aspects of Pneumatology.

No, my questions were addressing what purpose does tongues serve in the life of Charismatics? What are their benefits?

Biblicist · Sep 5, 2015

random person said:
No, my questions were addressing what purpose does tongues serve in the life of Charismatics? What are their benefits?

Fair enough!

The ability to pray in the Spirit (Tongues) allows us to offer words of praise to the Father (within the congregational setting) and where we can allow the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf, as per 1 Cor 14:15, Eph 6:18 and Jude 20 during times of personal prayer.

There is also another aspect to to tongues in that it also signifies the local Christian congregation as being an Eschatological community who is awaiting the return of the Lord in his future Kingdom. Currently, my favourite defination of tongues has been provided by Prof. Peter Althouse:

“The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit renews the covenantal community in anticipation of the parousia, and tongues is a theophanic sign of divine self-disclosure like that of the burning bush in the calling of Moses and the giving of the Law. As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in leveling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its "groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation”.

Peter Althouse

random person · Sep 5, 2015

Biblicist said:
Fair enough!

The ability to pray in the Spirit (Tongues) allows us to offer words of praise to the Father (within the congregational setting) and where we can allow the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf, as per 1 Cor 14:15, Eph 6:18 and Jude 20 during times of personal prayer.

There is also another aspect to to tongues in that it also signifies the local Christian congregation as being an Eschatological community who is awaiting the return of the Lord in his future Kingdom. Currently, my favourite defination of tongues has been provided by Prof. Peter Althouse:

“The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit renews the covenantal community in anticipation of the parousia, and tongues is a theophanic sign of divine self-disclosure like that of the burning bush in the calling of Moses and the giving of the Law. As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in leveling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its "groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation”.

Peter Althouse

Liberation? Chaos and disorder prevalent in the worship services? Yeah, I guess it is a liberation of sorts to conduct one with occult-like ectasis but not the one desired and promoted Biblically.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

The Holy Spirit liberates us from the bondage of the law from the yoke of the Mosaic Law and from corruption of sin as per Galatians 2:4; Galatians 5:1; Galatians 5:13; 1 Peter 2:16; & 2 Corinthians 3:17.

Biblicist · Sep 5, 2015

random person said:
Liberation? Chaos and disorder prevalent in the worship services? Yeah, I guess it is a liberation of sorts to conduct one with occult-like ectasis but not the one desired and promoted Biblically.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

The Holy Spirit liberates us from the bondage of the law from the yoke of the Mosaic Law and from corruption of sin as per Galatians 2:4; Galatians 5:1; Galatians 5:13; 1 Peter 2:16; & 2 Corinthians 3:17.

With Althouse’s reference to “As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers”. This does not refer to either the content of what the Spirit is saying, be it of praise, thanks or intercession, or with the location if it be within the congregational setting or when we are at home during times of personal praise and prayer.

The connection is with the nature of tongues in that it is a foretaste of the Parousia where we now await our incorporation into the future Kingdom of God. Here on earth, when we pray in the Spirit we are doing so in inarticulate sounds which only the Holy Spirit and the Father understand, whereas once we are established in the future Kingdom of God we will be speaking 'angelic tongues' that we fully understand, this is why tongues is referred to as being a theophonic sign.
It has a possible (and probable) connection with Rom 8:26 where Paul refers to how the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf with wordless groans, which is most likely an euphemism for the inarticulate language of tongues. As with the rest of God's Creation, we are impatiently waiting for the establishment of God's Kingdom.

Biblicist · Sep 5, 2015

random person said:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

As our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) has nothing to do with preaching a message to anyone, where tongues is entirely an inarticulate language of praise and prayer to the Father, then any reference to angels bearing false wittness has no bearing on the matter.

random person · Sep 5, 2015

Biblicist said:
As our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) has nothing to do with preaching a message to anyone, where tongues is entirely an inarticulate language of praise and prayer to the Father, then any reference to angels bearing false wittness has no bearing on the matter.

Gibberish accompanied with altered state of consciencness due to the craftiness of the preacher and praise team usually through energetic redundant repetitiveness which can even culminate in laughter, barking, physical bodily jerks, twitches, and contortions.

random person · Sep 5, 2015

Biblicist said:
With Althouse’s reference to “As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a "cry of abandonment;' which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers”. This does not refer to either the content of what the Spirit is saying, be it of praise, thanks or intercession, or with the location if it be within the congregational setting or when we are at home during times of personal praise and prayer.

The connection is with the nature of tongues in that it is a foretaste of the Parousia where we now await our incorporation into the future Kingdom of God. Here on earth, when we pray in the Spirit we are doing so in inarticulate sounds which only the Holy Spirit and the Father understand, whereas once we are established in the future Kingdom of God we will be speaking 'angelic tongues' that we fully understand, this is why tongues is referred to as being a theophonic sign.
It has a possible (and probable) connection with Rom 8:26 where Paul refers to how the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf with wordless groans, which is most likely an euphemism for the inarticulate language of tongues. As with the rest of God's Creation, we are impatiently waiting for the establishment of God's Kingdom.

Yeah, complete abandonment into emotionalism.

Biblicist · Sep 5, 2015

random person said:
Yeah, complete abandonment into emotionalism.

As I regularly pray in tongues along with many millions of others, I will have to say that emotionalism never comes into it. Though if I were to maybe spend several hours praying consistently in the Spirit then maybe this could allow me to have a heightened awareness of the Father, which could possibly be deemed to be emotionalism, which is something that I certainly would not object to.

If you want to connect praying in the Spirit with emotionalism, you may as well say that when we fervently pray with our minds (i.e., English) that that this could eventually lead to emotionalism as well.

random person · Sep 5, 2015

Biblicist said:
As I regularly pray in tongues along with many millions of others, I will have to say that emotionalism never comes into it. Though if I were to maybe spend several hours praying consistently in the Spirit then maybe this could allow me to have a heightened awareness of the Father, which could possibly be deemed to be emotionalism, which is something that I certainly would not object to.

If you want to connect praying in the Spirit with emotionalism, you may as well say that when we fervently pray with our minds (i.e., English) that that this could eventually lead to emotionalism as well.

The fruits of Pentacostalism is rendering themselves into an altered state of conscienceness and believing it to be a personal experience with God. Meanwhile, there is no edification within the church due to no interpreters and tongues no longer serves as sign for unbelievers, it is plain and simple, chaos and disorder in the gathered body of Christ which its adherents label liberty and abandonment.

Biblicist · Sep 5, 2015

random person said:
The fruits of Pentacostalism is rendering themselves into an altered state of conscienceness and believing it to be a personal experience with God.

I must say that I have never come across any Pentecostals who have have entered into an "altered state of conscienceness", I wonder what it would look like, though I regularly see Pentecostals and charismatics sucumbing to a bit of hype where they allow their emotions to get the better of them, such as where some pretend to be "slain in the Spirit" which in my opinion is a horrible term. Maybe moving into an "altered state of conscienceness" could be what we do when we have to sit through a boring Sunday sermon.

Meanwhile, there is no edification within the church due to no interpreters and tongues no longer serves as sign for unbelievers, it is plain and simple, chaos and disorder in the body of Christ which its adherents label liberty and abandonment.

How interesting indeed! So you are saying that tongues + interpretation had a role with edifying the early Church, but as your worldview suggest (without any Biblical support) that these two Operations of the Spirit have ceased then so has the edification factor.

Oh well, at least your recognise that these two Operations of the Spirit can indeed edifiy the Church and as you have absolutely no Biblical evidence that these things have ceased then obviously they edify the Church of today as the Spirit did in the Church of the first few centuries.
As uninterpreted tongues within the congregational setting became a negative sign to the unbeliever and cessationist of the first century, nothing has changed in that the unbeliever and cessationist are still perturbed by these Operations of the Spirit. Unlike our cessationist brethren, we can at least enjoy the liberty of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and that we can abandon ourselves to the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit as well.

toLiJC · Sep 9, 2015

random person said:
Not every Christian in the 1st century had a spiritual gift.

But the purpose of a gift was to provide God's new knowledge.

In the New Testament and in the early church, spiritual gifts were used and a means to teach the Gospel.

Miracles were always accompanied by Gospel teaching.

The purpose of the gift of tongues was to speak in unknown languages.

"Tongues" is another word for languages. Nothing else.

The purpose of gifts was to perfect or complete the truth.

The Bible provides all knowledge contained in the spiritual gifts.

The Bible replaced the spiritual gifts.

Romans 10:17, says we get faith from the Bible.

Tongues are not needed because we have the Bible.

Tongues were to be used in a orderly fashion (2 or 3 in order) and not even to be spoken without an interpreter.

it is about listening in Romans 10:17, not just reading, because faith means to believe in God, not just in the Bible, for God is a living being that can think and decide quite perfectly, and then speak, while the Bible is an inanimate object, which cannot think and decide, neither speak, but it just contains the written form of His word concerning one-time cases that was recorded before, that's why it is written:

Romans 1:16-17 "I am not ashamed of the gospel(i.e. the witness) of Christ(i.e. that comes out of Christ): for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.",

Galatians 3:11-12 "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.",

Hebrews 5:11-12 "we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

some worshipers of the hebrews did not believe in the true Lord God properly, and therefore remained unlearned as believers, and St Paul said they (as it were) need/want for someone among the humans to teach them, which is inadvisable as to the main principle of awareness/familiarity in the faith, because it is (more and most) right that believer/worshiper be enlightened by the true Lord God through faith rather than be taught by any human, or as St John says:

1 John 2:27-28 "the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

Blessings

random person · Sep 11, 2015

Biblicist said:
I must say that I have never come across any Pentecostals who have have entered into an "altered state of conscienceness", I wonder what it would look like, though I regularly see Pentecostals and charismatics sucumbing to a bit of hype where they allow their emotions to get the better of them, such as where some pretend to be "slain in the Spirit" which in my opinion is a horrible term. Maybe moving into an "altered state of conscienceness" could be what we do when we have to sit through a boring Sunday sermon.

How interesting indeed! So you are saying that tongues + interpretation had a role with edifying the early Church, but as your worldview suggest (without any Biblical support) that these two Operations of the Spirit have ceased then so has the edification factor.

Oh well, at least your recognise that these two Operations of the Spirit can indeed edifiy the Church and as you have absolutely no Biblical evidence that these things have ceased then obviously they edify the Church of today as the Spirit did in the Church of the first few centuries.
As uninterpreted tongues within the congregational setting became a negative sign to the unbeliever and cessationist of the first century, nothing has changed in that the unbeliever and cessationist are still perturbed by these Operations of the Spirit. Unlike our cessationist brethren, we can at least enjoy the liberty of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and that we can abandon ourselves to the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit as well.

Without an interpreter within the congregation to share the message of the Spirit is unscriptural.

Barking like dogs is unscriptural.

Holy laughter is unscriptural.

Slain in the Spirit is unscriptural.

The gift of tongues being a universal gift is unscriptural.

The gift of tongues being the greatest and most important gift is unscriptural.

Multiple individuals speaking in tongues simultaneously is unscriptural.

Paul said let only two or three AT MOST speak in tongues but not without an interpreter and let them each take their own turns in an orderly fashion - OTHERWISE SHUT UP!

Either tongues is completely fake and perhaps psychosomatic or there is something very false and demonic about the phenomenon because it is identical to pagan glossosalia. Or it is a combination of both. The Scripture are our guide book in trying the spirits in this matter. The charismatic movement fails the test IMHO.

When I attended Charismatic services I always got a cold chill running up and down my spine, my "spidey sense was tingling". My heart sank at the sight of the things I witnessed.

And I also witnessed all of evidence of mass hypnosis or individuals en masse being siezed by an altered state of conscienceness held in thrall by rthymic body movements and music beats, and repeated choruses.

Like self-induced trances and emotional outbursts (hysteria).

Biblicist · Sep 12, 2015

random person said:
Without an interpreter within the congregation to share the message of the Spirit is unscriptural.

Amen and Amen!

Barking like dogs is unscriptural.

As much as I would probably upset a few fellow Pentecostals with my next comment, how does the saying go, "Stupid is as stupid does".

Holy laughter is unscriptural.

Now this is a tough one! Even though I can find absolutely no support for this practice, which I admit I haven't seen for a fair while, as it is nothing more than a release of our emotions then it cannot be categorically deemed to be a bad thing, but I'm not all that sure that it is a result of the leading of the Spirit.

Slain in the Spirit is unscriptural.

I agree.

The gift of tongues being a universal gift is unscriptural.

That's quite true, at least when it relates to those who choose not to pray in the Spirit (tongues); if some choose to be among the "have nots" then this is their choice I suppose.

The gift of tongues being the greatest and most important gift is unscriptural.

As far as I know, probably 99.999% of Pentecostals and charismatics would agree with this.

Multiple individuals speaking in tongues simultaneously is unscriptural.

Paul said let only two or three AT MOST speak in tongues but not without an interpreter and let them each take their own turns in an orderly fashion - OTHERWISE SHUT UP!

True indeed, this is something that else that you've got right - well done; except that Paul did not say "shut up" but that we are permitted to speak to God and to ourselves, this is quite a different thing.

Either tongues is completely fake and perhaps psychosomatic or there is something very false and demonic about the phenomenon because it is identical to pagan glossosalia. Or it is a combination of both. The Scripture are our guide book in trying the spirits in this matter. The charismatic movement fails the test IMHO.

As all the research that I have observed says the opposite, which is something that swordsman1 came unstuck on in the Cessationist Question thread, you may want to leave this specialist field to those who understand the research. Your comment regard pagan glossolalia displays that you are both completely unaware of the reseach into the psychological and theological aspects of glossolalia and that you are unable to understand the fundamental principles; as such, your viewpoint belongs to the catergory of being an old wives tale.

When I attended Charismatic services I always got a cold chill running up and down my spine, my "spidey sense was tingling". My heart sank at the sight of the things I witnessed.

Were you the only person in these meetings? Contrary to your previous objections, I tend to suspect that you might struggle to even point out where a Pentecostal church might even be.

And I also witnessed all of evidence of mass hypnosis or individuals en masse being siezed by an altered state of conscienceness held in thrall by rthymic body movements and music beats, and repeated choruses.

Like self-induced trances and emotional outbursts (hysteria).

As this type of thing probably began with the teachings of the cessationist Bill Hybels where the seeker-sensitive ethos encouraged the use of massive sound and light presentations for both the later Pentecostals and cessationists (presuming the cessationists are awake in the first place), I will agree that they can both be influenced by the use of mood conditioning music and lights. But as you have demonstrated an inability to understand the difference between the use of hypnosis (the plaything of the novice) as against mood altering techniques, then you should probably leave this field alone as well.

random person · Sep 12, 2015

Biblicist said:
As all the research that I have observed says the opposite, which is something that swordsman1 came unstuck on in the Cessationist Question thread, you may want to leave this specialist field to those who understand the research. Your comment regard pagan glossolalia displays that you are both completely unaware of the reseach into the psychological and theological aspects of glossolalia and that you are unable to understand the fundamental principles; as such, your viewpoint belongs to the catergory of being an old wives tale.

Were you the only person in these meetings? Contrary to your previous objections, I tend to suspect that you might struggle to even point out where a Pentecostal church might even be.

As this type of thing probably began with the teachings of the cessationist Bill Hybels where the seeker-sensitive ethos encouraged the use of massive sound and light presentations for both the later Pentecostals and cessationists (presuming the cessationists are awake in the first place), I will agree that they can both be influenced by the use of mood conditioning music and lights. But as you have demonstrated an inability to understand the difference between the use of hypnosis (the plaything of the novice) as against mood altering techniques, then you should probably leave this field alone as well.

Don't talk down to me Biblicist, it is a known fact both music and repetitive energetic activity will not only create mass hypnosis but will also release endorphins that will reproduce a euphoric feeling called a "runner's high" or "adrenaline rush". Both signs of an altered state of conscienceness.

Romans 10:17, The Bible contains all knowledge in the spiritual gifts!

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