"...And Your Lord is Never Forgetful..." II

brewmama said:

I would like to hear why Muslims kill so many other Muslims, as we are so often reminded when we complain about Muslims killing Christians.

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Why did Christians kill so many Christians in the two world wars?

ContraMundum said:

Honest, straight forward answer: It's hard to trust Islam based on it's current behaviour, because to an outsider you don't know who to believe.

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Islam is neither a person or an organization that it can have 'current behavior.' There are Muslims who might do certain things, but not Islam.

I realize fully that my Muslim neighbour may be a decent, peace-loving person, and if they suffered persecution I'd be outraged. I'd defend them, no problem.

However, I know that in my very own city people have been plotting acts of terrorism in innocent people in the name of Islam and there would have been bloodshed if not for decent law enforcement and intelligence.

Who is the real "Muslim"? Both claim to be the true Muslims. Both can cite their Quran, interpreting them differently of course.

What probably frustrates many people most of all is that the bad Muslims don't seem to have a conscience and would harm others if they have the opportunity, and if the victims or their protectors strike back, suddenly they are "victims". Roll the cameras, and the bad guys are suddenly victims.

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I suggest you read two books: What One Billion Muslims Really Think and Good Muslim, Bad Muslim.

One thing I have said in recent times. Muslims outside of the West (and some inside too) don't understand the West, and the West doesn't understand them either.

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It is true that the West generally doesn't understand Islam, but is it true that Muslims don't understand the West? I would say for the most part it is not true because most Muslims have received a secular, Western education. However, that is the Muslim laity. The same is not true of the clerics ['ulama]. Because of their traditional education they often know far less.

1) What do you think of the idea that when Islam in the minority it preaches tolerance, when in the ascending it demands special privilege and when it is in the majority it becomes the persecutor?

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Again, Islam does nothing of the sort. The real question is whether Muslims do this. And I would say that a lot depends on how they became the majority.

2) What do you think of the perceived pattern that when Islam comes to a nation it goes through three phases: a) after enforcing dhimmitude, get rid of the Jews then, b) the Christians [and Ba'hai etc] and finally c) turn on each other for not being "Muslim enough"?

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Except aside from the Hijaz region of the Arabia, prior to the establishment of the State of Israel Muslims never tried to get rid of the Jews. They fared much better in the Islamic world than they ever did in Christian Europe. Baha'is are a special case because Muslims must deny our very existence as a religion. None of these are 'phases'. Dhimmitude, by the way, is not a word, it is slur invented by Islamophobes. And it is rather ironic to hear Christians talk about Muslims turning on one another for following their brand of Islam. Doesn't Christianity have a rather impressive history of that?

brewmama said:

It's pretty easy to document. I can see why you wouldn't want to address it. Here's a source with actual numbers.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/08/s...lims-have-died-at-the-hands-of-fellow-muslims

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Jihadwatch is not a reliable source. For an accurate depiction of jihadists go here: http://www.jihadica.com/

But let's assume for arguments sake that the figure of 10 million Muslims dying at the hands of fellow muslims is correct. You do realize that the number of casaulties from the four short years of WWII was 40 million with mostly Christians killing Christians. That is without even mentioning the near extermination of Jews.

ContraMundum said:

Never heard of terrorism in the name of Judaism in the US. "Killing Americans for Moses" just isn't the sort of thing you hear about.

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That isn't exactly the slogan of the Jewish Defense League, but they most certainly have been associated with acts of terrorism. They have bombed Arab and Soviet properties in the US. JDL members have been linked to violent, and sometimes deadly, attacks in the United States and in other countries, including the murder of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee regional director Alex Odeh in 1985, outside the US they were involved in the Hebron Massacre in 1994 and in 2001 they were involved in a plot to assassinate Congressman Darrell Issa in 2001. The Southern Poverty Law Center lists them as a hate group whereas Homeland Security calls them a 'former terrorist organization.'

Also, keep in mind that terrorism helped found the State of Israel, the most famous example being the bombing of the King David Hotel.

Not many people are committing terrorism these days in the name of Jesus, or Moses...but how many do it in the name of Islam?

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What a minute, the name of Jesus or Moses are not religions or religious communities. The Jewish Defense League was most definitely acting in defense of the Jewish community.

Therefore, I pretty much reject the figures as they don't stack up as religious crimes unless they are done in the name of that religion.

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Okay, try this one. The Lord's Resistance Army in Africa. If there is less killing in the name of religion in the West nowadays, I submit this is largely because the West is frankly less religious. We've have gotten perfectly good at killing without having to turn to religion for its justification.

My personal belief is that most of this is triggered by politics, and religion is the rallying call/excuse. Most Muslims say that this is an abuse of Islam, but the Islamists say that this is "true" Islam. Who do I believe? Don't know. Both make compelling cases that they are the "true" Muslims and it seems like the Islamists take things a lot more literal.

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And literalism makes a religion more true? The Islamists and jihadists are following a revivalist movement that doesn't get started until the 18th century.

It is, in my estimation, sad that Islam is so tied up in politics. To my mind a pure religion transcends politics. Do you think Islam has that ability or goal? Or is Islam only complete with built-in political aspirations?

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Transcending politics ought not to mean ignoring the plight of the oppressed. There is certainly a difference between Christianity and Islam in this regard. Christians are more interested in saving individuals from a world which is otherwise going to hell, whereas Muslims seek to transform the world through action in the world.

I've always found that narrative a bit of a fantasy, actually. So much contradictory history as well. It's far more complex than that.

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Of course it was complex, but the fact remains Jews fared much better in the Islamic world than they did in Christendom. At least prior to 1948

LoAmmi said:

You mention Jews, but the statistics show that a Jewish extremist attack has not happened since 1986.

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That's not true, Loammi. The Jewish Defense League tried to assassinate a Congressman in 2001 and attempted to bomb a mosque that same year.

smaneck said:

That's not true, Loammi. The Jewish Defense League tried to assassinate a Congressman in 2001 and attempted to bomb a mosque that same year.

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I didn't see that in the FBI list of incidents. I'm not the one who picked the source.

LoAmmi said:

I didn't see that in the FBI list of incidents. I'm not the one who picked the source.

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http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-11-14-obit-rubin_x.htm

smaneck said:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-11-14-obit-rubin_x.htm

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I'm not saying it didn't happen. I found the report that the original statistic came from and the incident you are speaking of isn't on that report. I'm not going to add this one to that report as I have no intention to start looking into other incidents that might not be on there. My guess is that it stems from the definition of terrorist incident the FBI is using.

I can't help think that no matter what I post, how I think, or what I say I will always be wrong in the eyes of Islamic apologists. I don't matter. My opinions and world-view is invalid. I forgot that apparently it's all Christianity, Judaism and generally the West's fault for everything.

I'm a Jewish Christian from the West so I'm at fault by a factor of three. I should just stand in line and shut up and take the blame for everything that goes wrong on planet Earth. I can't point out that Al-Q and IS use the Quran to justify the slaughter of innocents. I can't point out wars in the Middle East are well known to be between competing sects of Islam....because....well....I don't know why. I can't point out that right now, there are millions fleeing wars fought between Islamic (not just political) sects vying for power and we just don't see that happening in that scale from other groups trying to acquire power for their religion. I'm just not allowed to state the obvious.

Apparently, Muslims don't kill harm or hurt anybody, but with a strange twist of logic and sanity secular political wars in the West are a "Christian" problem.

smaneck said:

What a minute, the name of Jesus or Moses are not religions or religious communities. The Jewish Defense League was most definitely acting in defense of the Jewish.....

......etc etc etc

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I really think you're just being argumentative here. Remember, body-count apologetics and semantic quibbling mean nothing to me. It's a waste of time, because no matter who says what, there's always another point to be made. What a waste of life.

ContraMundum said:

I'm a Jewish Christian from the West so I'm at fault by a factor of three.

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It has nothing to do with your being a Jewish Christian but has everything to do with your accepting Western stereotypes about Islam and Muslims.

Thank you for this thread, LoveBeingAMuslimah. It is important to remember and denounce injustice, and hold up its victims in prayer and if possible, help them in other ways also.

PS I will be away until Monday evening or Tuesday, inshAllah I will respond to your responses on the two hadith threads then, if you reply to my replies this weekend.

Allahma3k and take care,
TG123

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

What is it that makes some followers of other world religions (or sometimes Muslims themselves, whether or not they consider themselves religious) often persecute or treat unjustly the followers of Islaam, especially those who are deemed to be more observant than the persecutors may like? Please note that this is NOT to promote a religion other than Christianity.

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Frankly, I am afraid to trust a faithful Muslim. I will keep a distance from him no matter how kind and peaceful he seemingly is, if you take it as a unjust behavior.

If the Muslim is not a faithful one, I would be less alert to him.

Because a faithful Muslim is potentially aggressive. I think that is the nature of Islam.

smaneck said:

It has nothing to do with your being a Jewish Christian but has everything to do with your accepting Western stereotypes about Islam and Muslims.

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Oh gee thanks for insult...way to completely dismiss what I said. You just validated my point. My opinions don't matter, because apparently I'm too dumb to think for myself.

Furthermore, are you actually suggesting that there's not a tiny shred of truth in the concerns of millions and millions of people? We're all too stupid?

Lastly, know this my apologist friend- my opinions are formed far, far outside of Western stereotypes. I've been assisting refugees from Muslim nations for around five years now. They form the nucleus of my understanding of the matter at hand.

juvenissun said:

Frankly, I am afraid to trust a faithful Muslim. I will keep a distance from him no matter how kind and peaceful he seemingly is, if you take it as a unjust behavior.

If the Muslim is not a faithful one, I would be less alert to him.

Because a faithful Muslim is potentially aggressive. I think that is the nature of Islam.

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And that is called prejudice. . . .

ContraMundum said:

Furthermore, are you actually suggesting that there's not a tiny shred of truth in the concerns of millions and millions of people?

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I'm saying that if they actually studied Islam and its history, they would know that the threat they perceive, at least is far as Sunnis are concerned, that it is coming from a revivalist movement that started in the 18th century and was considered heretical through the 19th century. They would then realize there is nothing normative about it. I'm also saying that essentialisms for any religion just don't work in real life.

Lastly, know this my apologist friend- my opinions are formed far, far outside of Western stereotypes.

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That I find hard to believe.

I've been assisting refugees from Muslim nations for around five years now.

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How?

smaneck said:

And that is called prejudice. . . .

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Any prejudice must have a reason to cause it.
Think about the reason, I am not sure I have a prejudice.

smaneck said:

I'm saying that if they actually studied Islam and its history, they would know that the threat they perceive, at least is far as Sunnis are concerned, that it is coming from a revivalist movement that started in the 18th century and was considered heretical through the 19th century. They would then realize there is nothing normative about it. I'm also saying that essentialisms for any religion just don't work in real life.

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I already know that, and most of the people I know know that. So?

Doesn't explain the bad boy behaviour of Muslims prior to that.

How?

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I work in a parish that deals with them due to their placement in the area. No more details are necessary for the purposes of this forum.

smaneck said:

And that is called prejudice. . . .

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That is called exaggeration.

ContraMundum said:

I already know that, and most of the people I know know that. So?

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And yet you insist on depicting this as the real Islam.

Doesn't explain the bad boy behaviour of Muslims prior to that.

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Christianity was a much badder boy prior to this.