Pagan finding his way to Christianity

eae45

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@dhornace I went through a period in my life where I struggled with my faith and the presence of God resulting in my faith diminishing. But by the Grace of God he guided me back towards him through a number of ways but the most prominent was through a lady of wisdom, who I'd known for a long time. She guided back to my faith. She recently started a website to share her christian faith and wisdom with believers and nonbelievers and I wanted to direct you there because she has some posts that I pray will guide and strengthen you in your walk back to christianity. Her website is lizdirect.com
 
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food4thought

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I have thought a lot about it. I am not one to discount the idea of what the bible says. I mean, looking at some Pagan traditions, Asatru for example, they say the earth is the brains of one deity and the sky is made from the hair of another. For me the idea of creation has been a battle, I wouldn't say just because of what is written in the old testament. I think everyone has their opinions on it and I'm sure a lot of people question what really happened. So that stuff isn't so much what I object to.
I would say the parts that I have a hard time connecting with are the idea that we must be submissive. I don't quite understand the need for us to be submissive to a loving God? Maybe I misinterpreted it, if you could shine some light on that, that would really help me. I am not a submissive person by nature so this is a hard concept for me to grasp. Especially coming from a religion that is largely based on being, not necessarily dominant, but more so being strong, hardened and forthright. Again, maybe these are things you can still be as a Catholic and I just don't quite have the right understanding of it.

Thanks for reaching out to help me better understand!

While I generally agree with gsldisciple, I think we would be doing you a disservice if we did not acknowledge that the Bible calls us to submit ourselves to God (James 4:7). Look around at the world we live in... despite God's restraint upon us, look at the wreckage following our own will has led to (
) ! It is right and good for us to surrender our will in order to do God's, because He is good, He knows every outcome of every possible action, and He has the ultimate best for every one of us individually and corporately as His goal.

Love sometimes entails surrendering our desires in order to help accomplish the best for someone else. The highest form of relationship is agape love, which is when someone gives of themselves and their treasure for the ultimate good of the one loved. This requires that the one who loves must submit his/her desires for their own betterment in order to accomplish the ultimate good for the one loved.

Pride is the opposite of all this. Pride says that I am number one. Pride will step all over someone else if it gets us what we want. Prideful actions are often born out of fear that others will do the same to us. Agape love is the cure for our pride and our fear. God will not unnecessarily cause us hurt in order to get what He wants, because in His love for us what He wants is our own good, and the good of others. Submitting to Him is in our own best interest. Submitting ourselves to others for their good will be rewarded by God, even if it isn't by the ones we love in this way.

Hope this helps;
Mike
 
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dhornace

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While I generally agree with gsldisciple, I think we would be doing you a disservice if we did not acknowledge that the Bible calls us to submit ourselves to God (James 4:7). Look around at the world we live in... despite God's restraint upon us, look at the wreckage following our own will has led to! It is right and good for us to surrender our will in order to do God's, because He is good, He knows every outcome of every possible action, and He has the ultimate best for every one of us individually and corporately as His goal.

Love sometimes entails surrendering our desires in order to help accomplish the best for someone else. The highest form of relationship is agape love, which is when someone gives of themselves and their treasure for the ultimate good of the one loved. This requires that the one who loves must submit his/her desires for their own betterment in order to accomplish the ultimate good for the one loved.

Pride is the opposite of all this. Pride says that I am number one. Pride will step all over someone else if it gets us what we want. Prideful actions are often born out of fear that others will do the same to us. Agape love is the cure for our pride and our fear. God will not unnecessarily cause us hurt in order to get what He wants, because in His love for us what He wants is our own good, and the good of others. Submitting to Him is in our own best interest. Submitting ourselves to others for their good will be rewarded by God, even if it isn't by the ones we love in this way.

Hope this helps;
Mike

That makes a lot of sense and actually in James 4:6 it explains what you wrote about pride "But he gives more grace. So that the Writings say, God is against the men of pride, but he gives grace to those who make themselves low before him."
 
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faroukfarouk

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@dhornace I went through a period in my life where I struggled with my faith and the presence of God resulting in my faith diminishing. But by the Grace of God he guided me back towards him through a number of ways but the most prominent was through a lady of wisdom, who I'd known for a long time. She guided back to my faith. She recently started a website to share her christian faith and wisdom with believers and nonbelievers and I wanted to direct you there because she has some posts that I pray will guide and strengthen you in your walk back to christianity. Her website is lizdirect.com
eae45: Hi; I looked at the site and it seems to quote a lot of helpful Scripture verses. So do you happen to know Ms. Liz personally? :)

dhornace: It's always good to make sure that something is Scripture based.
 
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fat wee robin

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“I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand.” ~ St. Augustine
I am not a great fan of Augustine ,and he can put people off altogether .
 
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Blank Stair

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Hi Blank Stair!
When I first started looking for that spiritual connection I found Wicca, started delving into that but it didn't really click with me to well. To me it was very vague in a lot of aspects (gods to worship, meditation, etc.) Thru more research I found Paganism as a general religion and found that there were many branches within that religious tree. I figured I would look into my own background for the best one and I am German and Irish so the Celtic traditions fit really well with me. It was more specific and I could actually begin a connection with the teachings that were there.
:) Thank you.
 
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oi_antz

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Wow. Powerful, full of impact, thank you. Recently I have seen that God's purpose is opposed most greatly by a devaluation of life. Whether by religion, science or simply human beliefs/attitudes, yet Christianity states clearly every time, we live once and then face judgement. Life just has become so generally accepted as a disposable commodity, it is naturally difficult to regard it as seriously as it ought to be, and we are easily persuaded to trade it as such.
 
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fat wee robin

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Wow. Powerful, full of impact, thank you. Recently I have seen that God's purpose is opposed most greatly by a devaluation of life. Whether by religion, science or simply human beliefs/attitudes, yet Christianity states clearly every time, we live once and then face judgement. Life just has become so generally accepted as a disposable commodity, it is naturally difficult to regard it as seriously as it ought to be, and we are easily persuaded to trade it as such.
Wow. Powerful, full of impact, thank you. Recently I have seen that God's purpose is opposed most greatly by a devaluation of life. Whether by religion, science or simply human beliefs/attitudes, yet Christianity states clearly every time, we live once and then face judgement. Life just has become so generally accepted as a disposable commodity, it is naturally difficult to regard it as seriously as it ought to be, and we are easily persuaded to trade it as such.
I believe that Hebrews says "we DIE once, and then the judgement ".
This is not exactly the same as "we live once" ,
and also, this the author of this text, has never been proven .
 
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oi_antz

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I believe that Hebrews says "we DIE once, and then the judgement ".
This is not exactly the same as "we live once" ,
and also, this the author of this text, has never been proven .
That is very astute, thank you.
 
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fat wee robin

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That is very astute, thank you.
Thankyou .
If they are wrong on this, it would change a fundamental belief ,of orthodox christianity
ie .we life one life ,before the 'final judgement ' .
Were they talking about physical or spiritual death when they said 'we die once'. Are
we truly alive ,until we truly recieve the the Holy Spirit ?
Some of these things need revisited by theologians .Apparently Pope Benedict
was doing just that before he 'retired , 'Revisiting ' Origen' .
 
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hedrick

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I have thought a lot about it. I am not one to discount the idea of what the bible says. I mean, looking at some Pagan traditions, Asatru for example, they say the earth is the brains of one deity and the sky is made from the hair of another. For me the idea of creation has been a battle, I wouldn't say just because of what is written in the old testament. I think everyone has their opinions on it and I'm sure a lot of people question what really happened.
Right. Outside conservative Protestantism — which isn’t what you’re looking at — creation doesn’t mean 7 days and a young earth. You can certainly understand the specific Genesis stories (remember, there are two different ones, Gen 1 and 2) as legendary. But the idea it reflects underlies the whole Bible, which is that God is responsible for the universe.

That means he’s legitimately in charge. It also means that the universe reflects his nature. One of the big mysteries for scientists is why the mathematical models work so well. Why is the universe constructed so rationally? After quantum mechanics we no longer thing it’s quite so much like a simple machine, but still, why can it be described so well by laws? The Christian answer is that its rationality reflects God’s rationality.

Not only does the universe reflect God, but we do. We are made in his image. If you try to look at the Bible as a whole and ask what the overall plot is, it is God trying to restore (or if you consider the Fall to be legend, to establish) his image to man. And through man, to the whole universe. He established a covenant with Israel to help it develop that way. When that failed, he sent prophets. Finally, he sent his son.

So that stuff isn't so much what I object to. I would say the parts that I have a hard time connecting with are the idea that we must be submissive. I don't quite understand the need for us to be submissive to a loving God? Maybe I misinterpreted it, if you could shine some light on that, that would really help me. I am not a submissive person by nature so this is a hard concept for me to grasp. Especially coming from a religion that is largely based on being, not necessarily dominant, but more so being strong, hardened and forthright. Again, maybe these are things you can still be as a Catholic and I just don't quite have the right understanding of it.

Christians can be (and probably should be) strong and forthright. But if God is our creator, and our purpose is to reflect his image, then we should be trying to develop in a way that does that. Jesus’ normal term is obedience, not submission. There’s overlap, but they may not be identical. But if God is really our creator, and the universe and our own lives reflect him, then what he asks of us should be good for us. So it’s like a young child obeying parents. Parents who are competent and want their children to grow into strong, independent people.

One of the strengths or weaknesses (depending at least in part upon our relationship with our own parents) of Jesus’ continual reference to God as Father is that what it means depends upon our image of what it means to be a father. Is it a father who just wants his children to do what he says? Or is it a father who is concerned about developing his children into the best possible people? The meaning of obedience and submission depend upon that concept.

There’s one other core concept that should be mentioned. That is that people are part of a web of relationships: God and man, husband and wife, parent and child, citizen and government. Some theologians have defined personhood as being constituted entirely be the relationship of the person to others.
 
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dhornace

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Right. Outside conservative Protestantism — which isn’t what you’re looking at — creation doesn’t mean 7 days and a young earth. You can certainly understand the specific Genesis stories (remember, there are two different ones, Gen 1 and 2) as legendary. But the idea it reflects underlies the whole Bible, which is that God is responsible for the universe.

That means he’s legitimately in charge. It also means that the universe reflects his nature. One of the big mysteries for scientists is why the mathematical models work so well. Why is the universe constructed so rationally? After quantum mechanics we no longer thing it’s quite so much like a simple machine, but still, why can it be described so well by laws? The Christian answer is that its rationality reflects God’s rationality.

Not only does the universe reflect God, but we do. We are made in his image. If you try to look at the Bible as a whole and ask what the overall plot is, it is God trying to restore (or if you consider the Fall to be legend, to establish) his image to man. And through man, to the whole universe. He established a covenant with Israel to help it develop that way. When that failed, he sent prophets. Finally, he sent his son.



Christians can be (and probably should be) strong and forthright. But if God is our creator, and our purpose is to reflect his image, then we should be trying to develop in a way that does that. Jesus’ normal term is obedience, not submission. There’s overlap, but they may not be identical. But if God is really our creator, and the universe and our own lives reflect him, then what he asks of us should be good for us. So it’s like a young child obeying parents. Parents who are competent and want their children to grow into strong, independent people.

One of the strengths or weaknesses (depending at least in part upon our relationship with our own parents) of Jesus’ continual reference to God as Father is that what it means depends upon our image of what it means to be a father. Is it a father who just wants his children to do what he says? Or is it a father who is concerned about developing his children into the best possible people? The meaning of obedience and submission depend upon that concept.

There’s one other core concept that should be mentioned. That is that people are part of a web of relationships: God and man, husband and wife, parent and child, citizen and government. Some theologians have defined personhood as being constituted entirely be the relationship of the person to others.

I appreciate this post a lot. Thank you for taking the time to write it for me (twice, I saw you posted it in another thread ;) ) Like I said before, the idea of creation hasn't really changed in the sense that God created it, like I said before, in Asatru the other Gods put the world together using bones, hair and brains. Really the stories are very similar when you break them down into segments and take out the theatrics that Asatru has. Asatru even has a first man and woman like Adam and Eve, if you can believe it. In really pondering over the idea of creation, the views described in the bible never really left me. It is really what I have always believed in. It was neat to see you put into context of the universe being reflective of his nature. Which goes along the lines of when you said there is a web of relationships. Everything seems to be tied to the idea of being the reflection of Gods image.

I like the analogies you used to describe the submission ideology. It put things into a different perspective for me.
I remember reading about Jesus referring to obedience and I can agree with that. It is a discipline.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi everyone! New guy here and this is my first post. Little back story first...

I was raised a Catholic and was very very close with my faith and with God. As I got older, I started questioning things, which I think a lot of people do in their early teens. I slowly began to lose my faith, it sort of dissipated. But I still felt a connection with something. I then found Paganism, found that connection with the Gods, etc, etc. So for the last 17 years I have been Pagan. About 5 years ago I was creeping back towards Christianity but it didn't stick. And again, over the last few months I have been creeping towards God again. I bought a Bible and have been reading it again for the first time in years. It's weird. It is like I want to believe, but it is hard when I have been following a certain path for so long. So many things to me that I have made it in my mind that "Christianity doesn't work" or it "contradicts itself". Maybe it will just take time? I'm not sure. I saw a post on here where a gentleman said that you need to fully believe in order to really understand your connection with God. I agree, but it is difficult.

So I guess what I'm looking for is some guidance? Has anyone else been where I am at? I feel like I'm alone with this.

Any responses would be greatly appreciated!

Dan

Hi Dan,

First off, Welcome to CF! It's good to see people take the opportunity to learn further about Christian faith, even if they are struggling with its credibility. That willingness is, in itself, a gift.

I'm going to keep this answer short:

In zeroing in on your comment about your tendency to make pragmatic evaluations of Christianity, I'd like to suggest that when you engage the Bible (or Christian thought in general), try not to cognitively force its contents into a literary service which its writers probably did not intend for it to fill. This way, you'll be less tempted to compare its message against a modern scientific paradigm and less stymied by its archaic thought patterns. The Bible was written to contend with the (Gentile and Pagan) ideas of its time(s), not with a 21st century scientific milieu, nor even with a 1st century scientific milieu.

Just some things to keep in mind, my friend. :cool:

2PhiloVoid
 
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hedrick

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I appreciate this post a lot. Thank you for taking the time to write it for me (twice, I saw you posted it in another thread ;) ) Like I said before, the idea of creation hasn't really changed in the sense that God created it, like I said before, in Asatru the other Gods put the world together using bones, hair and brains. Really the stories are very similar when you break them down into segments and take out the theatrics that Asatru has. Asatru even has a first man and woman like Adam and Eve, if you can believe it. In really pondering over the idea of creation, the views described in the bible never really left me. It is really what I have always believed in. It was neat to see you put into context of the universe being reflective of his nature. Which goes along the lines of when you said there is a web of relationships. Everything seems to be tied to the idea of being the reflection of Gods image.

The similarity to other creation stories is surely not a coincidence. If, as I assume, the Hebrews had no independent knowledge about how the earth was created, it's not surprising if they used accounts from the most sophisticated cultures around them -- most likely cultures from which their ancestors had come. But they used them as a framework for a story with a rather different message. (I've compared it at times with theistic evolution. It accepts the scientific account of creation, but sees it as part of God's plan.) Note that this may well not have been done by a single author. It's quite likely that the accounts were passed on in oral tradition, and thus developed over time. Here's an article describing similarities to Egyptian creation accounts, but also showing the differences: http://www.kevinstilley.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Creation-Myths.pdf. Like many scholars, the author regards the creation story as polemic, as an attack on the polytheistic concepts behind Egyptian and Mesopotamian versions of the story. Note that there are enough similarities that you'll find similar articles comparing it with Babylonian creation stories.
 
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dhornace

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Hi Dan,

First off, Welcome to CF! It's good to see people take the opportunity to learn further about Christian faith, even if they are struggling with its credibility. That willingness is, in itself, a gift.

I'm going to keep this answer short:

In zeroing in on your comment about your tendency to make pragmatic evaluations of Christianity, I'd like to suggest that when you engage the Bible (or Christian thought in general), try not to cognitively force its contents into a literary service which its writers probably did not intend for it to fill. This way, you'll be less tempted to compare its message against a modern scientific paradigm and less stymied by its archaic thought patterns. The Bible was written to contend with the (Gentile and Pagan) ideas of its time(s), not with a 21st century scientific milieu, nor even with a 1st century scientific milieu.

Just some things to keep in mind, my friend. :cool:

2PhiloVoid

I realized the other day that I have been doing just that. I am one of those people who like to question everything and find out the reasons why. I think in the case of Christianity I need to find the truth in it verses why (if that makes sense).
@faroukfarouk gave me some things to read from the bible and I read it and took into consideration the time it was written in. This allowed me to open my mind quite a bit more. Honestly, this is how I really was able to delve into Paganism to begin with, but I think I had such a chip on my shoulder against the Christian faith that I never allowed myself to do that when reading about it. Most Pagan ideas that I followed were based before/during the time of Christ so they too are archaic by nature. Anywho, reading the passages of John and really taking the time to understand what was trying to be said took me to a place that was familiar, but distant to me. Like walking out of a cave that you went into years ago. You recognize its entrance, but is now overgrown. The more I am reading and trying to put back together my belief in the Christian faith, it is becoming easier to allow my mind to relax in a way. Reading your post kind of reaffirms that, that is what I need to do.
 
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