Abortion and the death penalty

AS a Christian are you:

  • Anti abortion and anti death penalty

    Votes: 6 31.6%
  • Anti abortion and pro death penalty

    Votes: 6 31.6%
  • Pro choice and anti death penalty

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Pro choice and pro death penalty

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19

Belk

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No.
No.
No.
And no.

You are confused by the differences between a misscariage and an abortion.

Most misscariages happen naturally and all abortions are by choice.

So no, no woman should be investigated for having a misscariage. That sounds like something only a pro-choice advocate would want.


You are apparently confused about the word abortion.


abortion

the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as

a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion

Any time a woman miscarriages an abortion has happened.
 
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Dave-W

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More stupidity....

EVERY pregnancy is a threat to a woman.
Pregnancy is a heavy burden to carry. It demands a LOT from a woman's body.
Your pregnancy can be medically perfect for 9 months and still the delivery will remain a risk.

Then there's all those other things that can go wrong... Like preeclampsia.

My girlfriend is 8 months pregnant at this point. No woman should be forced to go through those 9 months against her will.

Next to a right to self defense, humans also have a right to bodily autonomy.
Which is why I gave the kidney example. That is what that analogy is about.... the right to decide what happens to your body and what is allowed in and what not.
I do understand all that.

BUT - why take a perfectly good human being and kill them? Is that not more "risky" than the pregnancy?

If you do not see that fetus as a human being, with all the rights and privileges of that - then you are not seeing the whole picture.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I do understand all that.

BUT - why take a perfectly good human being and kill them? Is that not more "risky" than the pregnancy?

Why violate someon's bodily autonomy to save the life of another?
Why force a human to have her body used by another human if she doesn't want to do so?

If you do not see that fetus as a human being, with all the rights and privileges of that - then you are not seeing the whole picture.

As I have already clearly demonstrated, you don't see a fetus as a "human being, with all the rights and privileges of that" either!!!

Because if you DID, then you'ld also have to agree that every miscarriage requires a an investigation. Which can result in things like going to prison for "involuntary manslaughter".

Since not a single one of the "pro-lifers" in this topic is willing to support such practices, then clearly none of you consider a fetus as an actual human being with all the rights and privileges that come with that!!!

So, clearly, you DO see that there is a difference.

If a woman can be forced to have her body used as a life support system for another "human", even only for a little while, then the same must apply in every other scenario where the body of one human is used to support the life of another.

Since you don't agree with such things, and since you don't support miscarriage investigations and allegations of involuntary manslaughter.... it logically follows that you do no REALLY believe that a "fetus" has the same "rights and privileges" as any other "human".

See? That's how that works...

If a fetus is to be seen as an actual human, then the default rules apply. Which means that you can't force one human to have his body used to save/support the life of another.

So, even IF I would agree to the statemen that a fetus is a human with all the rights and privileges of a human, then ... it only becomes even harder for you to argue against abortion!!!

Because you can't violate someones bodily autonomy just to support or save the life of another....

Heck, even if you are DEAD, then STILL we can't harnass your organs to save living people unless you actually gave explicit permission to do so while you were still alive!

All of you "pro-lifers" consistently make this emotional appeal about "the human that dies" and his/her rights. What about the human that lives? What about the mother? What about HER rights? What about HER privileges? What about HER freedom?

Is she a second rate citizen? Does she not have the right to decide what happens to her body?

It works both ways you know!! The rights of one "person" doesn't get priority over the rights of another!

NOBODY has the right to force someone to have his body used for his or her benefit!!

Not you, not a baby, not a fetus.

If I say "no, you can't have my kidney" then you can't have my kidney!
If I say "no, you can't have my bone marrow" then you can't have my bone marrow!
If I say "no, you can't use my stemcells" then you can't use my stemcells!
If a woman says "no, you can't use my uterus", then you can't use her uterus!
 
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Dave-W

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Because if you DID, then you'ld also have to agree that every miscarriage requires a an investigation. Which can result in things like going to prison for "involuntary manslaughter".
I think that investigating miscarriages would be in order, and prosecution against the woman (or anyone else for that matter) who engaged in risky behavior that would knowingly put the viability of the baby in flux.

In the case of myself, my mom was date raped and then my dad tried to get her to miscarry by driving down rough country roads and railroad tracks. He should have been investigated and prosecuted for attempted murder.
 
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Dave-W

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All of you "pro-lifers" consistently make this emotional appeal about "the human that dies" and his/her rights. What about the human that lives? What about the mother? What about HER rights? What about HER privileges? What about HER freedom?
And another thing: what about the rights of the biological father? Does he want to have his own offspring killed off?
 
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Chriliman

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A perfectly healthy fetus results in a healthy pregnancy that never threatens to kill women - but unfortunately that is not always the case. Hence the medical procedure of abortion in some cases - including where the mental state of the mother is detrimentally affected - that's not a healthy pregnancy.

Really? So now instead of looking at the brain first to determine why her mental state is detrimentally affected, we instead assume it must be the perfectly healthy fetus that is causing this therefore it must die. Great rational objective conclusion there!
 
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asherahSamaria

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Really? So now instead of looking at the brain first to determine why her mental state is detrimentally affected, we instead assume it must be the perfectly healthy fetus that is causing this therefore it must die. Great rational objective conclusion there!

That's just part of a rejection of bodily autonomy argument. Either someone has the right to bodily autonomy or they don't.
 
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Chriliman

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That's just part of a rejection of bodily autonomy argument. Either someone has the right to bodily autonomy or they don't.

I'm not rejecting the bodily autonomy argument. Women do have the right to bodily autonomy, but when they choose to take an innocent life in order to maintain bodily autonomy, it becomes immoral.
 
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DogmaHunter

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And another thing: what about the rights of the biological father? Does he want to have his own offspring killed off?

In my view, nothing takes precedence over your rights over your own body.

In this case, I'ld say that it would depend on the situation.
If a commitment was made by the woman to have children then I'ld agree that the father has a say in things.

If the pregnancy was unintended and against the woman's will - then the rights of the woman have priority.

As far as I am concerned, people are the master of their own body.

You'ld have to convince me that they aren't in order to turn me to your side of the fence.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I'm not rejecting the bodily autonomy argument.

Yes, you do. Otherwise, you wouldn't be arguing FOR forcing women to carry out a pregnancy against their will.

Women do have the right to bodily autonomy, but when they choose to take an innocent life in order to maintain bodily autonomy, it becomes immoral.

By the same logic, it would be immoral to refuse to hand over one of my kidney's.

Also, I'ld like to state here that if your only position is that it is "immoral" in your opinion... I'm fine with that. The problem only arises once you want this opinion legislated and thus forced upon people that don't share your opinion.
 
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Chriliman

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Yes, you do. Otherwise, you wouldn't be arguing FOR forcing women to carry out a pregnancy against their will.

The only way I could force a woman to carry out a pregnancy is by raping a woman. Obviously, I would never do this. If a woman is not being raped then she should understands that what she is doing could result in pregnancy. This means the choice of having sex potentially leads to the immoral action of taking an innocent life. This is exactly why every man and woman should really think about what their doing before they do it. Don't use the argument of rape to show how abortion is moral, its a very weak argument because of the reasons I've stated before, rape and insest account for less than 1% of the reasons to have an abortion.

By the same logic, it would be immoral to refuse to hand over one of my kidney's.

Logical fallacy, because I did not choose to create your kidney with my body. Also, a kidney is not a human being. Again, don't use rape to refute this point because its not a reasonable argument.

Also, I'ld like to state here that if your only position is that it is "immoral" in your opinion... I'm fine with that. The problem only arises once you want this opinion legislated and thus forced upon people that don't share your opinion.

What can reasonably be shown to be immoral should be considered immoral by all reasonable people.
 
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Dave-W

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Cearbhall

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I'm not rejecting the bodily autonomy argument. Women do have the right to bodily autonomy, but when they choose to take an innocent life in order to maintain bodily autonomy, it becomes immoral.
Except when they're dying, in your opinion. Using that logic, it's fine for someone to drug me and remove tissue, blood, and organs, as long as they don't take any vital organs. Because hey, someone else needs them. If their life can be maintained without killing me, then my right to bodily autonomy hasn't kicked in...
Does that mean as a fetus I have rights over my own body?
Yes, but that's different from having the right to use someone else's body to maintain your body against that person's will. No one has that right. I don't. You don't. We can't even use a corpse in this way.

This is why infanticide is illegal. The woman doesn't have to kill the baby if she doesn't want to provide for him or her. She can just hand the child to a nurse, no questions asked.
 
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Chriliman

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This is why infanticide is illegal. The woman doesn't have to kill the baby if she doesn't want to provide for him or her. She can just hand the child to a nurse, no questions asked.

You mean (assuming the woman didn't get raped) no questions like; Why did you have sex in first place if you didn't want a baby? You know, the obvious question that the woman should be held accountable for because she's a thinking woman who should know that she could get pregnant by having sex. Don't use the rape argument against this if you want to understand our point of view that people should be held accountable for their actions. I'm not advocating that women be sent to prison for abortions, I'm willing to forgive them for what they've done, but please lets figure out how to get people to make good choices before having sex.
 
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Cearbhall

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Logical fallacy, because I did not choose to create your kidney with my body. Also, a kidney is not a human being. Again, don't use rape to refute this point because its not a reasonable argument.
Yes it is, and you know it. It's the one situation where your rhetoric about "choice" doesn't apply, so you don't want to discuss it. If you can come up with a logical reason for criminalizing abortion that applies to instances of rape, we'll drop it.
Don't use the rape argument against this if you want to understand our point of view that people should be held accountable for their actions.
I consider having an abortion to be the consequence. I don't view it as any different than having to go to the hospital if you do something dumb and break your leg. They are held accountable by having to address the situation, however they choose to do that.
 
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Chriliman

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Yes it is, and you know it. It's the one situation where your rhetoric about "choice" doesn't apply, so you don't want to discuss it. If you can come up with a logical reason for criminalizing abortion that applies to instances of rape, we'll drop it.

I consider having an abortion to be the consequence. I don't view it as any different than having to go to the hospital if you do something dumb and break your leg. They are held accountable by having to address the situation, however they choose to do that.

I'll concede that in the less than 1% chance a woman will need an abortion because of rape, they should at least have the option to abort early in the pregnancy. Now the challenge you have is to show how the rest of the over 99% of reasons to have an abortion should be considered moral and the fact is they cannot be shown to be moral. Don't ignore the over 99% of reasons just to make a point about the less than 1% of reasons. This is selective reasoning and is the opposite of being objective.
 
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Chriliman

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