Equinoxes vs. solstices

cloudyday2 · Aug 31, 2015

As I've been reading about astrology, it seems that ancient people attached more significance to the equinoxes than the solstices - particularly the spring equinox. I am not a stargazer, so I have never observed either an equinox or a solstice. Why would ancient people attach more significance to an equinox? The spring actually starts with the winter solstice IMO. That is when the days begin to lengthen. The spring equinox is only the halfway point between the shortest and longest days.

What do people observe on an equinox? Do the shadows do anything special on that day? What is the big deal with an equinox?

In an agricultural society, I suppose the spring equinox helped them time their planting to maximize probability of a good harvest. It was a solar calendar.

What would be the significance of an equinox for nomadic pastoral societies such as the ancient Israelites? The first month of the Jewish calendar contains the spring equinox.

awitch · Aug 31, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
As I've been reading about astrology, it seems that ancient people attached more significance to the equinoxes than the solstices - particularly the spring equinox. I am not a stargazer, so I have never observed either an equinox or a solstice. Why would ancient people attach more significance to an equinox? The spring actually starts with the winter solstice IMO. That is when the days begin to shorten. The spring equinox is only the halfway point between the shortest and longest days.

What do people observe on an equinox? Do the shadows do anything special on that day? What is the big deal with an equinox?

Not sure about the ancients, but for me it's a celebration of the end of winter; the return of wildlife, more daylight hours and better weather. What's not to celebrate?

cloudyday2 · Sep 1, 2015

awitch said:
Not sure about the ancients, but for me it's a celebration of the end of winter; the return of wildlife, more daylight hours and better weather. What's not to celebrate?

After thinking some more, I suspect the significance comes from the birth of herd animals in the spring. That was an important time for pastoral societies. An agricultural society might decide the best time to plant is N weeks before or after the spring equinox, so it would become very important to measure the equinox. A hunting society might also value the spring equinox as the time when their are more animals to hunt.

Zoness · Sep 1, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
After thinking some more, I suspect the significance comes from the birth of herd animals in the spring. That was an important time for pastoral societies. An agricultural society might decide the best time to plant is N weeks before or after the spring equinox, so it would become very important to measure the equinox. A hunting society might also value the spring equinox as the time when their are more animals to hunt.

I think your conjecture is accurate.

Nowadays from a modern pagan perspective, I observe the Sabbats and Esbats as recognition of Earth, her natural beauty and the changing of the seasons as well as celebrating aspects of humanity that align with the seasons. Plus of course the end of winter is absolutely worth celebrating.

In these days of modern agriculture I do not attribute more ancient meanings to the days since farming has changed so much over the centuries.

awitch · Sep 1, 2015

Zoness said:
I think your conjecture is accurate.

Nowadays from a modern pagan perspective, I observe the Sabbats and Esbats as recognition of Earth, her natural beauty and the changing of the seasons as well as celebrating aspects of humanity that align with the seasons. Plus of course the end of winter is absolutely worth celebrating. In these days of modern agriculture I do not attribute more ancient meanings to the days since farming has changed so much over the centuries.

A lot of the ancient stuff seems to be about farming, hunting, and fertility.
My idea of hunting and farming is driving 3 miles to the grocery store and picking up a packaged steak and a bag of salad.

Zoness · Sep 1, 2015

awitch said:
A lot of the ancient stuff seems to be about farming, hunting, and fertility.
My idea of hunting and farming is driving 3 miles to the grocery store and picking up a packaged steak and a bag of salad.

Right which is why instead of trying to shoehorn an outmoded agrarian approach into the system I just accept the fact that things have changed and attribute different meanings to the dates. Though that's one of the big debates going on within paganism right now. There is quite a bit of fighting around it.

ContraMundum · Sep 1, 2015

So, where does the word Sabbat come from?

Zoness · Sep 1, 2015

ContraMundum said:
So, where does the word Sabbat come from?

The word itself is French and literally means "Sabbath", I believe it originated in the 17th century. Traditionally the high holidays of Western European traditions (and later, Wicca) were called the "Witch's Sabbaths". Either Sabbat or Sabbath would suffice in conversation, to most pagans its simply a matter of personal preference nowadays.

An interesting summary of the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches'_Sabbath

ContraMundum · Sep 1, 2015

Zoness said:
The word itself is French and literally means "Sabbath", I believe it originated in the 17th century. Traditionally the high holidays of Western European traditions (and later, Wicca) were called the "Witch's Sabbaths". Either Sabbat or Sabbath would suffice in conversation, to most pagans its simply a matter of personal preference nowadays.

An interesting summary of the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches'_Sabbath

OK...so it is from the ancient Hebrew ultimately as it appears. But it doesn't imply primarily a rest, so it's kind of an extension of the notion of a convocation. Thanks.

Zoness · Sep 1, 2015

ContraMundum said:
OK...so it is from the ancient Hebrew ultimately as it appears. But it doesn't imply primarily a rest, so it's kind of an extension of the notion of a convocation. Thanks.

Sure, anytime. I know there can be debate in Christianity about the term with regard to Seventh Day Adventists and the like. An interesting discussion but its out of scope for me.

Arthra · Sep 1, 2015

The vernal equinox was when Naw-Ruz (New Day) is set the ancient Persian New Year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz

It is also observed by Baha'is.

cloudyday2 · Sep 1, 2015

Arthra said:
The vernal equinox was when Naw-Ruz (New Day) is set the ancient Persian New Year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz

It is also observed by Baha'is.

Interesting... so the spring equinox is the Persian New Year too.
It looks like the Sumerians may have started the tradition (if not their ancestors).

smaneck · Sep 2, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
Interesting... so the spring equinox is the Persian New Year too.
It looks like the Sumerians may have started the tradition (if not their ancestors).

Tradition has it that Naw Ruz was started by Jamshed, a king said to have been the fourth king to reign on earth. God had offered Jamshed the mantle of prophethood but because Jamshed refused it kingship and prophethood were separated. Jamshed ruled for a thousand years during which the world of men was without sickness or aging and demons were deprived of wealth and power. But because of the separation of religion and state Jamshed was eventually consumed with pride, becoming susceptible to the attacks of Zahhak who was empowered by the Evil One (Ahriman) who eventually murdered him leading to Dark Age for mankind. At the end of time sovereignty and prophethood will again be united.

cloudyday2 · Sep 3, 2015

smaneck said:
Tradition has it that Naw Ruz was started by Jamshed, a king said to have been the fourth king to reign on earth. God had offered Jamshed the mantle of prophethood but because Jamshed refused it kingship and prophethood were separated. Jamshed ruled for a thousand years during which the world of men was without sickness or aging and demons were deprived of wealth and power. But because of the separation of religion and state Jamshed was eventually consumed with pride, becoming susceptible to the attacks of Zahhak who was empowered by the Evil One (Ahriman) who eventually murdered him leading to Dark Age for mankind. At the end of time sovereignty and prophethood will again be united.

Interesting story. I think in the beginning the people of Uruk thought of themselves as slaves of their goddess, so there was no civil leadership - only priests and a temple that distributed food rations to the people in standardized bowls. Then Uruk invented the idea of a king, but I believe the kings were usually separate from the priests. It's amazing to think of a society with no king, but apparently that was normal long ago - weird.

It's interesting how people in the past thought heaven would unite church and state, but today we think that would be hell. Times change I guess.

cloudyday2 · Sep 3, 2015

BTW, how do people celebrate the autumn equinox? I see it is coming up on Sept 23. I thought I might try pointing a stick at the specified angle and watch the shadow disappear. It sounds a bit boring actually.

Robban · Sep 3, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
BTW, how do people celebrate the autumn equinox? I see it is coming up on Sept 23. I thought I might try pointing a stick at the specified angle and watch the shadow disappear. It sounds a bit boring actually.

Not sure if I,m getting it,
If it is about the day being equal in length as the night,
Then it is just a fact, an observation.
In the spring it will mean the Days will become longer
and in the autumn the nights will become longer.
Celebrate?

There is also midsummer, dancing around a pole, and young maidens picking seven different flowers and putting them under their pillow and wishing to meet their dream Prince,

It gives people milestones on their way.

smaneck · Sep 3, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
Interesting story. I think in the beginning the people of Uruk thought of themselves as slaves of their goddess, so there was no civil leadership - only priests and a temple that distributed food rations to the people in standardized bowls. Then Uruk invented the idea of a king, but I believe the kings were usually separate from the priests. It's amazing to think of a society with no king, but apparently that was normal long ago - weird.

Ancient Sumeria was definitely a priestly dominated society. Kings emerge only after bronze technology leads to the rise of an aristocratic warrior class. There is now evidence that religion as much as agriculture led to the founding of civilization. Even among foragers, religion could mobilize enough labor to build temple complexes. Here is the most famous one that goes back to the Paleolithic period. http://www.electrummagazine.com/201...an-archaeological-stone-age-site-in-anatolia/

Close to where I live there is another sacred site built by Native American hunter-gatherers:
http://www.examiner.com/article/america-s-architectural-heritage-poverty-point-louisiana

This dates to about 1700 B.C. No evidence of farming in the region.

cloudyday2 · Sep 3, 2015

smaneck said:
Ancient Sumeria was definitely a priestly dominated society. Kings emerge only after bronze technology leads to the rise of an aristocratic warrior class. There is now evidence that religion as much as agriculture led to the founding of civilization. Even among foragers, religion could mobilize enough labor to build temple complexes. Here is the most famous one that goes back to the Paleolithic period. http://www.electrummagazine.com/201...an-archaeological-stone-age-site-in-anatolia/

Close to where I live there is another sacred site built by Native American hunter-gatherers:
http://www.examiner.com/article/america-s-architectural-heritage-poverty-point-louisiana

This dates to about 1700 B.C. No evidence of farming in the region.

In addition to Poverty Point, that link describes Watson Brake that dates to 3500 BCE. I can't help wondering if Watson Brake was designed to trap shellfish somehow.

cloudyday2 · Sep 3, 2015

It's really amazing that people were able to learn that the zodiac constellations determined the season of the year more accurately than other methods such as counting moons, measuring the temperature, etc.

Those people didn't understand that the angle of the sun's rays determined the season. They didn't know the Earth orbited around the Sun. ... All they could do is try different methods over many generations to see what worked best for a calendar. Think about how much weather fluctuates. Sometimes we have extra rainy summers, mild winters, etc. It would be really hard to know if your calendar is accurate or not without recording many, many years of data. We owe a lot to those ancient people.

cloudyday2 · Sep 3, 2015

^I just realized the ancients had no way of knowing that seasons were predictable by any calendar at all. For all they knew, the seasons might be longer or shorter depending on the whim of the gods. They didn't know that there was an N day cycle that they could discover to help predict the weather... but they figured it out.

Equinoxes vs. solstices

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