Do you agree with this statement?

Berean777 · Aug 31, 2015

However the Lord is saviour when in the world and also when going into heaven. Jesus remains the same when on earth even in heaven because his humanity and his Devine natures are inseparable, however that doesn't apply to Mary or a created being.

You see our natures unlike the Lord changes at the grave. We no longer continue as humans within the family definition of human. The wife that had all seven brothers cannot say she is related to all seven husbands that she had. Mary post resurrection cannot say she is the mother of Christ because all created beings cease that family construct without exception.
Mary just like all the servants of God fulfilled her role as Virgin that brought our saviour into the world. Mary is not merited for this miraculous act nor can she claim merit.

patricius79 · Sep 1, 2015

Berean777 said:
The Creator is much more than our earthly experiences and we have not yet been revealed that reality. When you are brought before the creator you are not being introduced to a stranger like members of your earthly family or even your church congregation who are the family of Christ. When you come before Christ's feet you know with all your being that this Devine being is in essence your very own existence, you just know this. I call it the Creator's DNA soul signature, it is his created rights. I was revealed this because I have been brought before his feet.

This changed my life and see that everything in this world including myself and my agenda is meaningless and that this Devine being is the source to knowing who I am and my place. You don't find that out from saints or Mary or any other created being. Those people are in the same boat like you and I.

I grow in my relationship to God through the Mother of God, because He came to us through Her.

justinangel · Sep 2, 2015

Berean777 said:
What do they call it when people have relationship with the departed?

Necromancy.

Family or no family I am not a necromancer, who speaks to the departed, even if the departed are with the Lord.

We have to draw a line in the sand, that is, to death do us apart. This applies to all departed including Mary.

"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed"
Deuteronomy. 18:10–15

Did Jesus practise necromancy when he spoke with Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration? (Mt.17:2-3) Or did Saul when he called on Samuel? (1 Sam. 28:15)

NECROMANCY.
The art of divining the future through alleged communication with the dead. It was mentioned in the Bible and found in every ancient nation. It was forbidden by Mosaic law in any form, whether as alchemy, magic, or witchcraft. It is also forbidden by the Church. One reason is that the practice lends itself to dependence on the evil spirits who can pretend to foretell the future, but only to deceive and mislead the practitioners. In modern times it is called spiritism or spiritualism. (Etym. Greek nekros, corpse + manteia, divination; Latin necromantia.)

COMMUNION OF SAINTS.
The unity and co-operation of the members of the Church on earth with those in heaven and in purgatory. They are united as being one Mystical Body of Christ. The faithful on earth are in communion with each other by professing the same faith, obeying the same authority, and assisting each other with their prayers and good works. They are in communion with the saints in heaven by honoring them as glorified members of the Church, invoking their prayers and aid, and striving to imitate their virtues. They are in communion with the souls in purgatory by helping them with their prayers and good works.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, by Father John Hardon, S.J.

What God has forbidden is the practice of conjuring up spirits for privileged information. Necromancy is when a person consults with spirits to determine the future or gain some knowledge from them. This is not what praying to the saints is. Praying to them is simply asking them to pray for us, to intercede with God on our behalf; we are asking them to hand our prayers to God through their righteous hands. We would be indulging in necromancy if a group of us sat around a table and held a séance to conjure the spirit of the Blessed Virgin Mary so she could infallibly tell us what might happen with the stock market next week. There's quite a huge difference here. Keep in mind, also, that we do not perceive the saints to have the power and authority to answer our prayers. Our communication with the saints is not so direct or exclusively made between us. Our communication is with Christ through his saints who participate in his mediation. He is the one principal mediator who has the power and authority to answer our prayers. Yet our Lord has established that we pray for each other in his name, and he encourages us to do so, since we are a family as members of his mystical body of which he is the head.

The prayers of the saints in Heaven are most effective, for they have been made fully righteous, and the prayers of the righteous avail much. The saints in heaven plead with Jesus who is the one intercessor between God and man just as we who are still on earth plead with Him for each other by our prayers. Thus, as members of one mystical family, we are united in the love of Christ which death cannot separate us from each other, since Christ is the head of this family. He is the one vine, and we are the branches united together on the vine (John 15:1-6). Your 'only-Jesus-and-me' paradigm, which isolates us from each other, has many same vines with single different branches on them, unconnected with the branches on the other vines. But in his metaphor of the vine and the branches, Jesus addressed and referred to an entire single community of believers together as belonging to one family. He had his Church in mind which includes the Church militant (the saints on earth who are struggling to reach moral perfection), the Church suffering (the saints in Purgatory whose bad works are being burned up) , and the Church triumphant (the glorified saints in Heaven who have attained perfection and received their crowns). Since we all are united in one baptism, death cannot separate us from each other.

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.... If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1 Corinthians 12, 12-13, 26-27

The saints in heaven aren't dead, but more alive than we are.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
1 Corinthians 13, 12

Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3, 2

In the NT, saints are often referred to as those who are made holy by baptism. And these saints include both the living and the faithful departed united by that common baptism. The suffering persecuted saints on earth and the martyred saints in Heaven are members of one body and family in Christ by virtue of that same baptism. If one member suffers, they all suffer for the sake of that member; if one member is honoured for his martyrdom, they all rejoice together as members of Christ's body who mutually participate in the suffering and death of the Lord. "Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also" (John 15:20).

But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem."
Acts 9, 13

And I did so in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.
Acts 26, 10

The Sadducees not only disbelieved in the resurrection of the just, but also denied that the soul was immortal. Once you died, you were positively dead. You personally no longer existed - period, not anywhere. But what did Jesus have to say about that?

But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God... And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Matthew 22, 29-32

The Patriarchs were as much alive for Jesus as were Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration.

It appears that even Jews at the time called to the departed saints (the righteous) for their intercession. Those by the cross mistakenly assumed that Jesus had when he cried out. But they didn't rebuke him for it. All they must have thought was that Elijah wouldn't appear to save Jesus, since they regarded our Lord to be a false prophet and blasphemer.

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la′ma sabach-tha′ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli′jah.” And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Eli′jah will come to save him. And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
Matthew 27, 45-50

And this is what happened as soon as Jesus gave up his spirit:

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27, 51-53

The expression "to fall asleep" at death refers to the bodies which lie in repose. The soul, which includes conscious awareness, is never extinguished. The idea of 'soul-sleep' embraced by some Protestant groups (i.e., Seventh Day Adventists) is unbiblical. It isn't true that we fall asleep (lose conscious awareness) at death and wake up (regain consciousness) at the resurrection. The angels' trumpets on the Last Day don't serve as alarm clocks. Before Stephen "fell asleep", he cried out, "Lord, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59-60). A spirit deprived of consciousness and self-awareness makes no sense. But a dead body that is does, for what animates the body has departed from it. And we mustn't forget that before Jesus yielded his spirit (we shouldn't presume that Jesus' human soul differed from our own or else he wasn't truly the God-man), he promised the good thief that they would be in paradise (not Heaven) together that day (Lk. 23:43). The spirit is immaterial, unlike the brain, and so the soul and self-awareness continue on when the body entirely ceases to function at death.

Finally, Paul believed in the continuation of conscious existence after death. Debating with himself whether it would be better to be alive so he could honour Christ in his body by the fruits of his apostolic labour, he decided it would be better to be united with Christ in Heaven so he could actually be with him and see him. 'I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better' (Phil. 1:23). In his Second Letter to the Corinthians, Paul speaks of his being caught up to paradise (a place) and of his uncertainty whether this occurred "in the body or out of the body" (12:3-4). This would certainly be an odd way of speaking for someone who didn’t believe in an immaterial soul or if he believed in 'soul sleep'. Obviously Paul believed that his consciousness existed not only while he was in possession of his body, but also when his soul may have left his body. I'm afraid Paul didn't "draw a line in the sand".

Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven , so she is in an even better position to correspond with us than all the other saints there. Her body has already been redeemed and glorified. Physically she is like her glorified Son in his humanity. And so, as our heavenly mother, she has appeared to us body and soul numerous times to exhort and guide us to her Son and draw the world back to God, notably at Lourdes and Fatima. Even those who fail to recognize the maternal prerogatives Jesus has conferred on his blessed mother receive graces from him only through her dispensation and intercession, and these include graces we receive through the intercession of all the other saints in the divine order of grace. For Christ is the head, Mary the neck, and we saints the lower members of his mystical body.

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 189)

"Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?"
Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403)

"Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God."
Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291(ante A.D. 560)

"She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God."
John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 740)

"Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul's affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance."
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante A.D. 778)

"For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all."
Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799)

"May we deserve to have the help of your intercession in heaven, because as the Son of God has deigned to descend to us through you, so we also must come to him with you."
Peter Damian, (ante A.D. 1072)

PAX

Berean777 · Sep 2, 2015

justinangel said:
"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed"
Deuteronomy. 18:10–15

Did Jesus practise necromancy when he spoke with Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration? (Mt.17:2-3) Or did Saul when he called on Samuel? (1 Sam. 28:15)

NECROMANCY.
The art of divining the future through alleged communication with the dead. It was mentioned in the Bible and found in every ancient nation. It was forbidden by Mosaic law in any form, whether as alchemy, magic, or witchcraft. It is also forbidden by the Church. One reason is that the practice lends itself to dependence on the evil spirits who can pretend to foretell the future, but only to deceive and mislead the practitioners. In modern times it is called spiritism or spiritualism. (Etym. Greek nekros, corpse + manteia, divination; Latin necromantia.)

COMMUNION OF SAINTS.
The unity and co-operation of the members of the Church on earth with those in heaven and in purgatory. They are united as being one Mystical Body of Christ. The faithful on earth are in communion with each other by professing the same faith, obeying the same authority, and assisting each other with their prayers and good works. They are in communion with the saints in heaven by honoring them as glorified members of the Church, invoking their prayers and aid, and striving to imitate their virtues. They are in communion with the souls in purgatory by helping them with their prayers and good works.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, by Father John Hardon, S.J.

What God has forbidden is the practice of conjuring up spirits for privileged information. Necromancy is when a person consults with spirits to determine the future or gain some knowledge from them. This is not what praying to the saints is. Praying to them is simply asking them to pray for us, to intercede with God on our behalf; we are asking them to hand our prayers to God through their righteous hands. We would be indulging in necromancy if a group of us sat around a table and held a séance to conjure the spirit of the Blessed Virgin Mary so she could infallibly tell us what might happen with the stock market next week. There's quite a huge difference here. Keep in mind, also, that we do not perceive the saints to have the power and authority to answer our prayers. Our communication with the saints is not so direct or exclusively made between us. Our communication is with Christ through his saints who participate in his mediation. He is the one principal mediator who has the power and authority to answer our prayers. Yet our Lord has established that we pray for each other in his name, and he encourages us to do so, since we are a family as members of his mystical body of which he is the head.

The prayers of the saints in Heaven are most effective, for they have been made fully righteous, and the prayers of the righteous avail much. The saints in heaven plead with Jesus who is the one intercessor between God and man just as we who are still on earth plead with Him for each other by our prayers. Thus, as members of one mystical family, we are united in the love of Christ which death cannot separate us from each other, since Christ is the head of this family. He is the one vine, and we are the branches united together on the vine (John 15:1-6). Your 'only-Jesus-and-me' paradigm, which isolates us from each other, has many same vines with single different branches on them, unconnected with the branches on the other vines. But in his metaphor of the vine and the branches, Jesus addressed and referred to an entire single community of believers together as belonging to one family. He had his Church in mind which includes the Church militant (the saints on earth who are struggling to reach moral perfection), the Church suffering (the saints in Purgatory whose bad works are being burned up) , and the Church triumphant (the glorified saints in Heaven who have attained perfection and received their crowns). Since we all are united in one baptism, death cannot separate us from each other.

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.... If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1 Corinthians 12, 12-13, 26-27

The saints in heaven aren't dead, but more alive than we are.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
1 Corinthians 13, 12

Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3, 2

In the NT, saints are often referred to as those who are made holy by baptism. And these saints include both the living and the faithful departed united by that common baptism. The suffering persecuted saints on earth and the martyred saints in Heaven are members of one body and family in Christ by virtue of that same baptism. If one member suffers, they all suffer for the sake of that member; if one member is honoured for his martyrdom, they all rejoice together as members of Christ's body who mutually participate in the suffering and death of the Lord. "Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also" (John 15:20).

But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem."
Acts 9, 13

And I did so in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.
Acts 26, 10

The Sadducees not only disbelieved in the resurrection of the just, but also denied that the soul was immortal. Once you died, you were positively dead. You personally no longer existed - period, not anywhere. But what did Jesus have to say about that?

But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God... And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Matthew 22, 29-32

The Patriarchs were as much alive for Jesus as were Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration.

It appears that even Jews at the time called to the departed saints (the righteous) for their intercession. Those by the cross mistakenly assumed that Jesus had when he cried out. But they didn't rebuke him for it. All they must have thought was that Elijah wouldn't appear to save Jesus, since they regarded our Lord to be a false prophet and blasphemer.

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la′ma sabach-tha′ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli′jah.” And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Eli′jah will come to save him. And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
Matthew 27, 45-50

And this is what happened as soon as Jesus gave up his spirit:

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27, 51-53

The expression "to fall asleep" at death refers to the bodies which lie in repose. The soul, which includes conscious awareness, is never extinguished. The idea of 'soul-sleep' embraced by some Protestant groups (i.e., Seventh Day Adventists) is unbiblical. It isn't true that we fall asleep (lose conscious awareness) at death and wake up (regain consciousness) at the resurrection. The angels' trumpets on the Last Day don't serve as alarm clocks. Before Stephen "fell asleep", he cried out, "Lord, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59-60). A spirit deprived of consciousness and self-awareness makes no sense. But a dead body that is does, for what animates the body has departed from it. And we mustn't forget that before Jesus yielded his spirit (we shouldn't presume that Jesus' human soul differed from our own or else he wasn't truly the God-man), he promised the good thief that they would be in paradise (not Heaven) together that day (Lk. 23:43). The spirit is immaterial, unlike the brain, and so the soul and self-awareness continue on when the body entirely ceases to function at death.

Finally, Paul believed in the continuation of conscious existence after death. Debating with himself whether it would be better to be alive so he could honour Christ in his body by the fruits of his apostolic labour, he decided it would be better to be united with Christ in Heaven so he could actually be with him and see him. 'I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better' (Phil. 1:23). In his Second Letter to the Corinthians, Paul speaks of his being caught up to paradise (a place) and of his uncertainty whether this occurred "in the body or out of the body" (12:3-4). This would certainly be an odd way of speaking for someone who didn’t believe in an immaterial soul or if he believed in 'soul sleep'. Obviously Paul believed that his consciousness existed not only while he was in possession of his body, but also when his soul may have left his body. I'm afraid Paul didn't "draw a line in the sand".

Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven , so she is in an even better position to correspond with us than all the other saints there. Her body has already been redeemed and glorified. Physically she is like her glorified Son in his humanity. And so, as our heavenly mother, she has appeared to us body and soul numerous times to exhort and guide us to her Son and draw the world back to God, notably at Lourdes and Fatima. Even those who fail to recognize the maternal prerogatives Jesus has conferred on his blessed mother receive graces from him only through her dispensation and intercession, and these include graces we receive through the intercession of all the other saints in the divine order of grace. For Christ is the head, Mary the neck, and we saints the lower members of his mystical body.

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 189)

"Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?"
Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403)

"Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God."
Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291(ante A.D. 560)

"She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God."
John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 740)

"Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul's affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance."
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante A.D. 778)

"For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all."
Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799)

"May we deserve to have the help of your intercession in heaven, because as the Son of God has deigned to descend to us through you, so we also must come to him with you."
Peter Damian, (ante A.D. 1072)

PAX

Yes and yes blessed child of Christ I agree with you, but I am in love with only one person. All those you mentioned are signs and symbols that make me glorify Christ even more.
When I consider Mary in prayer service I see her as a symbol, I see the Lord and love him even more. When I look at saints, I see the Lord and love him even more. All these I love are signs and symbols of him who I reserve my love for, because I only love him and only know him. All these signs and symbols remind me of him.
How could I disagree with you in that matter.

Berean777 · Sep 2, 2015

patricius79 said:
I grow in my relationship to God through the Mother of God, because He came to us through Her.

Then she is a sign and symbol that reflects your love for the Lord. So that when you see her, you are actually seeing the love you have for the Lord, for she is a sign (virgin) and symbol (hope).

It all points to the Lord doesn't it.

patricius79 · Sep 2, 2015

Berean777 said:
Then she is a sign and symbol that reflects your love for the Lord. So that when you see her, you are actually seeing the love you have for the Lord, for she is a sign (virgin) and symbol (hope).

It all points to the Lord doesn't it.

Yes. In a sense, the Mother of God is the love I have for the Lord. And St. Louis said, the more we look to Mary, the more we look to God. The more we praise Mary, the more God is praised.

bbbbbbb · Sep 2, 2015

patricius79 said:
Yes. In a sense, the Mother of God is the love I have for the Lord. And St. Louis said, the more we look to Mary, the more we look to God. The more we praise Mary, the more God is praised.

That is an interesting logical sequence. One could also say that the more we look to President Obama the more we look to American democracy and the more we praise President Obama the more we praise American democracy.

Berean777 · Sep 2, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
That is an interesting logical sequence. One could also say that the more we look to President Obama the more we look to American democracy and the more we praise President Obama the more we praise American democracy.

Got it!
We are all signs and symbols that point to the Lord, that is why we are called living stones, because the Lord lives in us and stones are symbols of reflection.
All our meditations and reflections are towards the devine being.

concretecamper · Sep 18, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
That is an interesting logical sequence. One could also say that the more we look to President Obama the more we look to American democracy and the more we praise President Obama the more we praise American democracy.

Slightly over 50% of Americans would agree with your view

Rick Otto · Sep 21, 2015

After all that, it still doesn't seem right to pray to the deceased, even if they are more alive.

Rick Otto · Sep 21, 2015

patricius79 said:
I grow in my relationship to God through the Mother of God, because He came to us through Her.

That's nice.
A little wierdly indirect, but whatever works.

Open Heart · Oct 5, 2015

JoeP222w · Nov 25, 2015

Lion King said:
"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

No, disagree.

Jesus has eternally existed. His existence has no dependence on any human being, including Mary. However, God used Mary as a vessel to bring Jesus, the Son, to us here on earth. But God chose Mary according to the counsel of His own will and according to His grace. It had nothing to do with how special Mary was or anything she had done.

And there is no concept of "Mother Church" in the Bible. And Mary is most certainly not the head of the church, nor is (was) the church dependent on the existence of Mary.

JoeP222w · Nov 25, 2015

InnerPhyre said:
Because of Eve's disobedience all men died. Because of Mary's obedience, all men live. Who is more worthy of a title?

Completely unbiblical thought you post there.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Eve was deceived, Adam was the one who sinned.

And salvation does not come from Mary. It comes from Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus never told us that "No one comes to the Father except through me and my mother Mary."

justinangel · Nov 26, 2015

JoeP222w said:
Jesus has eternally existed. His existence has no dependence on any human being, including Mary.

Do you believe that God has existed incarnate eternally? :scratch:

God could only have depended on Mary if He didn't know how she would respond at the Annunciation. But God already knows our souls when he creates us, so He says through the Psalmist. In this way He predestines us to grace and glory. The Greek word for predestine in the NT means "to know in advance". It does not mean to predetermine. Protestants who reject Catholic Marian doctrines do so partly because of their novel and false idea of dispensationalism.

However, God used Mary as a vessel to bring Jesus, the Son, to us here on earth.

Did the Father use Jesus as a human vessel? If I recall, in the Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus' sacrifice is said to have been made perfect by his free obedience to the Father's will.
Did God use Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world according to the counsel of his will? Both Adam and Eve disobeyed God and sinned by their own free will. Their sin could only be undone by the free obedient acts of faith demonstrated by Jesus and Mary. it is in his humanity that Jesus acts as our principal mediator before God. Thus, we who partake in the divine nature as a kingdom of priests can by right of filial adoption participate in Christ's mediation in a subordinate capacity. In his Mystical Body, Christ is the head and his faithful disciples are its members. Jesus is the vine, and they are the branches (1 Pet. 2:4-5; 2 Pet. 1:4; 1 Cor. 12:27; Jn. 15:5).

But God chose Mary according to the counsel of His own will and according to His grace.

God endowed Mary with the fullness of His grace (Lk. 1:28), so that she could be the advocate of Eve - most blessed among women (Lk. 1:42). Mary's act of faith informed by charity temporally vindicated Eve's transgression when the mother of our Lord gave her free salutary consent to be his mother. By default, the incarnation would not have happened if Mary refused to align her will with God's will as Eve had. The Early Church Fathers of the 2nd century tell us that. According to the Divine counsel, the original sin should be undone reciprocally (Gen. 3:15; Lk. 1:42, 45).

It had nothing to do with how special Mary was or anything she had done.

Then I suppose nothing we do has an affect on our salvation. But the Scriptures say that God shall judge every person according to their works. Our salvation does depend on how well we cooperate with God's actual graces (Rom. 2:6-10, 13); a person is saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of their works (1 Cor. 3:15); on the day of Judgment we are judged according to the deeds of our bodies, not by the faith we might have in Christ's merits (2 Cor. 5:10); whatever good anyone does, they shall receive the same from the Lord (Eph. 6:8); we shall receive due payment for the good we have done (Col. 3:24-25); indeed, God is not so unjust as to dismiss our good works done in grace and the love we have genuinely shown for His sake above all (Heb. 6:10); without holiness no living soul shall see the Lord. Holiness requires self-denial, personal sacrifice, and works of charity in grace. Thus God doesn't declare any human being holy simply by judging how much faith they have placed in the merits of Christ (Heb. 12:14); Jesus warns us that not everyone who says to him, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 7:21); a man shall reap whatever he sows. it isn't Christ who bears fruit and reaps for us as we fail to sow (Gal. 6:7-9); God judges us impartially according to our deeds. Salvation isn't reserved only for an elect group who have placed their faith in Christ's merits (1 Pet. 1:17); if we walk in the light as Jesus walked in the light, only then shall his blood cleanse us of all sin. Sanctification is the essence of justification. Conversely, the person who is personally and intrinsically unrighteous is unjustified (1 Jn. 1:7). God hears the prayers of the righteous. Their prayers are powerful and effective before God on account of their standing just before Him. Those who are in the state of sanctifying grace can temporally merit an increase in grace and charity for both themselves and others (Jas. 5:13-18); Jesus himself says that the faithful are repaid for the works they have done at the resurrection of the just by right of friendship with God. Good works lead to salvation, now that Christ alone has gained this gift for us by his merits in strict justice. Neither our faith nor good works are the principal cause of our salvation, since grace precedes our faith and good works, without which we can do nothing to merit our eternal reward. (Lk. 14:14; Eph. 2:10; Phil. 2:13).

Hence, Mary acted on our behalf, as well as for her own salvation, by declaring: "Let it be done to me according to your word" (Lk 1:38). In the grace of God, she temporally merited for us the coming of the Saviour into the world. God does not have to save us, but in His love and mercy He desires to save the whole world (1 Tim. 2:4). And God does not desire to save everyone by coercion or the imposition of a legal ordinance - not at any point. Human free will and charity are an essential part of the equation (Deut. 30:19; Hosea 6:6). Protestants who believe Mary had nothing to do with the salvation Christ had gained for us or couldn't have merited any reward from God both for herself and the human race, despite her plenitudes of grace, do so primarily because of their false idea of sola fide and its corollary sola Christo. These are doctrines that were unheard of in Christendom until the 16th century with the rise of Protestantism. None of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church taught these doctrines, which is evident in their Marian teachings. The idea of Mary being the new Eve and Mother of the Church, and the pure and undefiled Ark of the New Covenant, was explicitly taught in unanimity since the 2nd century by way of sacred Tradition.

And there is no concept of "Mother Church" in the Bible. And Mary is most certainly not the head of the church, nor is (was) the church dependent on the existence of Mary.

How would you know? In the OT, Daughter Zion foreshadows the Church as Mother (See Isaiah 66). Catholics regard Jesus as the Head of the Church. Mary is the neck in his Mystical Body, we are its lower members in the order of grace. All the signal graces we receive from the Head are channelled through the neck. In our own physical bodies, the neurological signals are transmitted through the neck. Mary is Mother of the Church (Jn. 19:26-27). By the way, sola Scriptura isn't in the Bible.

PAX

Rick Otto · Nov 26, 2015

He didn't say "incarnate" eternally.
If it wasn't for your army of strawmen, you'd have no one to argue with.

prodromos · Nov 26, 2015

Rick Otto said:
He didn't say "incarnate" eternally.

To be fair, God the Son has only gone by the name "Jesus" since the incarnation, so it would not be accurate to say "Jesus has eternally existed".

Rick Otto · Nov 27, 2015

prodromos said:
To be fair, God the Son has only gone by the name "Jesus" since the incarnation, so it would not be accurate to say "Jesus has eternally existed".

It would be perfectly accurate, Mr. p.
The NAME not having existed is not the same as the person going by it not existing.
What's up with you re: that?
You don't usually make that basic of a mistake.

justinangel · Nov 27, 2015

Rick Otto said:
He didn't say "incarnate" eternally.
If it wasn't for your army of strawmen, you'd have no one to argue with.

It seems to me that you love to argue with Catholics. Perhaps you should reread what Joe said, that Jesus has existed eternally and does not depend on anyone for his existence, including Mary. The divine Word chose to take his flesh and blood from Mary. His human existence as Jesus began in time at the Incarnation. Meanwhile, Catholics don't believe that the divine Word depended on Mary to exist eternally, if that's what Joe meant. This would be a straw man.

:angel:

JoeP222w · Nov 30, 2015

justinangel said:
Do you believe that God has existed incarnate eternally? God could only have depended on Mary if He didn't know how she would respond at the Annunciation. But God already knows our souls when he creates us, so He says through the Psalmist. In this way He predestines us to grace and glory. The Greek word for predestine in the NT means "to know in advance". It does not mean to predetermine. Protestants who reject Catholic Marian doctrines do so partly because of their novel and false idea of dispensationalism.

Did the Father use Jesus as a human vessel? If I recall, in the Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus' sacrifice is said to have been made perfect by his free obedience to the Father's will.
Did God use Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world according to the counsel of his will? Both Adam and Eve disobeyed God and sinned by their own free will. Their sin could only be undone by the free obedient acts of faith demonstrated by Jesus and Mary. it is in his humanity that Jesus acts as our principal mediator before God. Thus, we who partake in the divine nature as a kingdom of priests can by right of filial adoption participate in Christ's mediation in a subordinate capacity. In his Mystical Body, Christ is the head and his faithful disciples are its members. Jesus is the vine, and they are the branches (1 Pet. 2:4-5; 2 Pet. 1:4; 1 Cor. 12:27; Jn. 15:5).

God endowed Mary with the fullness of His grace (Lk. 1:28), so that she could be the advocate of Eve - most blessed among women (Lk. 1:42). Mary's act of faith informed by charity temporally vindicated Eve's transgression when the mother of our Lord gave her free salutary consent to be his mother. By default, the incarnation would not have happened if Mary refused to align her will with God's will as Eve had. The Early Church Fathers of the 2nd century tell us that. According to the Divine counsel, the original sin should be undone reciprocally (Gen. 3:15; Lk. 1:42, 45).

Then I suppose nothing we do has an affect on our salvation. But the Scriptures say that God shall judge every person according to their works. Our salvation does depend on how well we cooperate with God's actual graces (Rom. 2:6-10, 13); a person is saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of their works (1 Cor. 3:15); on the day of Judgment we are judged according to the deeds of our bodies, not by the faith we might have in Christ's merits (2 Cor. 5:10); whatever good anyone does, they shall receive the same from the Lord (Eph. 6:8); we shall receive due payment for the good we have done (Col. 3:24-25); indeed, God is not so unjust as to dismiss our good works done in grace and the love we have genuinely shown for His sake above all (Heb. 6:10); without holiness no living soul shall see the Lord. Holiness requires self-denial, personal sacrifice, and works of charity in grace. Thus God doesn't declare any human being holy simply by judging how much faith they have placed in the merits of Christ (Heb. 12:14); Jesus warns us that not everyone who says to him, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 7:21); a man shall reap whatever he sows. it isn't Christ who bears fruit and reaps for us as we fail to sow (Gal. 6:7-9); God judges us impartially according to our deeds. Salvation isn't reserved only for an elect group who have placed their faith in Christ's merits (1 Pet. 1:17); if we walk in the light as Jesus walked in the light, only then shall his blood cleanse us of all sin. Sanctification is the essence of justification. Conversely, the person who is personally and intrinsically unrighteous is unjustified (1 Jn. 1:7). God hears the prayers of the righteous. Their prayers are powerful and effective before God on account of their standing just before Him. Those who are in the state of sanctifying grace can temporally merit an increase in grace and charity for both themselves and others (Jas. 5:13-18); Jesus himself says that the faithful are repaid for the works they have done at the resurrection of the just by right of friendship with God. Good works lead to salvation, now that Christ alone has gained this gift for us by his merits in strict justice. Neither our faith nor good works are the principal cause of our salvation, since grace precedes our faith and good works, without which we can do nothing to merit our eternal reward. (Lk. 14:14; Eph. 2:10; Phil. 2:13).

Hence, Mary acted on our behalf, as well as for her own salvation, by declaring: "Let it be done to me according to your word" (Lk 1:38). In the grace of God, she temporally merited for us the coming of the Saviour into the world. God does not have to save us, but in His love and mercy He desires to save the whole world (1 Tim. 2:4). And God does not desire to save everyone by coercion or the imposition of a legal ordinance - not at any point. Human free will and charity are an essential part of the equation (Deut. 30:19; Hosea 6:6). Protestants who believe Mary had nothing to do with the salvation Christ had gained for us or couldn't have merited any reward from God both for herself and the human race, despite her plenitudes of grace, do so primarily because of their false idea of sola fide and its corollary sola Christo. These are doctrines that were unheard of in Christendom until the 16th century with the rise of Protestantism. None of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church taught these doctrines, which is evident in their Marian teachings. The idea of Mary being the new Eve and Mother of the Church, and the pure and undefiled Ark of the New Covenant, was explicitly taught in unanimity since the 2nd century by way of sacred Tradition.

How would you know? In the OT, Daughter Zion foreshadows the Church as Mother (See Isaiah 66). Catholics regard Jesus as the Head of the Church. Mary is the neck in his Mystical Body, we are its lower members in the order of grace. All the signal graces we receive from the Head are channelled through the neck. In our own physical bodies, the neurological signals are transmitted through the neck. Mary is Mother of the Church (Jn. 19:26-27). By the way, sola Scriptura isn't in the Bible.

PAX

/QUOTE]

"Do you believe that God has existed incarnate eternally?"

I am not sure. But I do believe that Jesus has eternally existed. Is my understanding a pre-requisite of God's truth? No. Do I have a whole lot to learn about God? Absolutely, yes.

"Protestants who reject Catholic Marian doctrines do so partly because of their novel and false idea of dispensationalism."

I disagree. Protestant reject Marian dogmas and doctrines because there is no biblical support of them. We believe the Bible is the inerrant and all sufficient word of God. And when man teaches a doctrine that is not found to be in the Bible, that doctrine is suspect as being the truth, because it comes from fallible man. Additionally the early church followed nothing of the modern day Roman Catholic Marian dogmas and doctrines.

"Did the Father use Jesus as a human vessel?"

Jesus is fully God and fully Man. He was not merely a vessel. He is God.

"it is in his humanity that Jesus acts as our principal mediator before God. "

This sounds good, but I would remove "principal" and replace it with "only". Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. Mary is not a co-mediatrix. This is a false doctrine of the Roman church, with no biblical support.

"so that she could be the advocate of Eve"

There is no biblical support of this thought.

"when the mother of our Lord gave her free salutary consent to be his mother."

I disagree that Mary gave her consent as if God needed Mary's permission. That would mean Mary has a higher authority than God. That would be idolatry.

"By default, the incarnation would not have happened if Mary refused to align her will with God's will as Eve had."

That is a moot point, since Mary submitted to God's will. She did not necessarily "align" her will with God, she obeyed God's will. It was not synergism.

"Then I suppose nothing we do has an affect on our salvation. But the Scriptures say that God shall judge every person according to their works. Our salvation does depend on how well we cooperate with God's actual graces (Rom. 2:6-10, 13) "

But you cannot read a passage in isolation. The rest of the chapter, Paul refers to an inward change ("circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter" (Romans 2:29). Salvation is not of works, so that none may boast (Ephesians 2). Works are the fruit of salvation, not the root. The root of salvation is solely in God's grace and the fruit does not exist without the root. Yes, everyone will be judged according to their works and by their works (if they are not in Christ), they will be condemned.

"Hence, Mary acted on our behalf, as well as for her own salvation"

I see no support of Mary acting on our behalf, in the scriptures. She was obedient to God, but she was not our representative.

"In the grace of God, she temporally merited for us the coming of the Saviour into the world."

This language ("merited for us"), again, is not supported in scripture.

"God does not have to save us, but in His love and mercy He desires to save the whole world (1 Tim. 2:4)"

Meaning His elect, according to His will, His nature, His desires. This does not mean every single human being that has ever lived.

"Protestants who believe Mary had nothing to do with the salvation"

This is a bit of a false characterization. Mary had a very important role. But salvation comes from Jesus Christ and Him alone. If God had chosen another means to save mankind, He could have easily done so. There was no absolute dependence on Mary. She was merely a sinful fallen human like all of us. But God chose her according to His will and His grace, not because of anything special in Mary, in and of herself.

"Mary is the neck in his Mystical Body"

Again, there is no Biblical support of this.

"Mary is Mother of the Church (Jn. 19:26-27)"

John 19:26-27 is in no way appointing Mary as "Mother of the Church". Jesus is simply commanding John to take care of Mary. Joseph was dead at this time, so with the death of Jesus, Mary would have had nothing, since women were not allowed to own property at that time, and she had no husband. It was not establishing Mary as Mother of the Church.

"By the way, sola Scriptura isn't in the Bible."

Actually, it is.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

But don't misunderstand this passage. This is not saying that there is no place for Church authority. But Church authority is secondary and must come under submission, to the word of God, since the church is made up of fallible men.

Do you agree with this statement?

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