Clarification on heterodox salvation

Apr 21, 2015
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Nope, I said a division away from, not within the Church. There's a difference. You can join, or leave the Church, but you cannot divide it. Is Christ divided?
I thought we established Christs body can't be divided?
I can label denominations that believe heretical beliefs that can lead people away from God. For example, denominations that believe in Calvinism, or deny in some manner free will. Another example would be oneness Pentecostals who deny the Trinity. The list can go on and on and on, as there are thousands of denominations that have broken away from each other.
I don't see how believing in free will or not affects a persons salvation. That is simply a view, not an imperative one. Any group denying the Trinity is a fringe group, we spoke of that. There is great diversity within the established faith groups per member, so we can't speak for the whole.
I refuse to make any judgments about any individual's salvation.
Nor do I, it's Gods decision. And I trust in His judgments.
 
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"The heavenly Church cannot be divided."

The heavenly and earthly Church cannot be divided, they are one and the same.
The believers that make up the Church and body of Christ, I agree cannot be divided. An institution run by men, surely has no bearing on the unfathomable God of ours.

Which Church is eternal: The earthly physical manifestation, or the heavenly?

Anyway, rather than disagree. Just consider what I said, see if the Bible disagrees. I don't think it does.
 
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It is very imperative because a God who damns some and saves others on a whim is a very different God from the one who offers salvation to all and desires all to come to Him, but allows them to freely chose!

Some other heretical beliefs of some Protestants (note not all who believe these heresies are "fringe groups")

chiliasm/millenarianism

Iconoclasm, Arianism

The 5 solas (sola fide, sola gratia, etc)

Calvinism

Total Depravity - We are severely damaged people, but not totally depraved. It is a denial of our free will to say we are incapable of choosing God.

Unconditional Election - Orthodoxy rejects predestination, that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (with the implication that God created people for damnation). (This is the more strict form, Double Predestination.

Limited Atonement - We believe Christ died for all mankind, not just the elect.

Irresistible Grace - Another rejection of free will, and a misunderstanding of Grace. Grace is God's energies, which we are free to walk into or out of; it's not a "thing" that God gives to us.

Perseverance of the Saints

Denying that Mary is the Mother of God, denying that Christ took flesh from Mary, thus coming close to being Nestorians (denying the full humanity of Christ)



 
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It is very imperative because a God who damns some and saves others on a whim is a very different God from the one who offers salvation to all and desires all to come to Him, but allows them to freely chose!

Some other heretical beliefs of some Protestants (note not all who believe these heresies are "fringe groups")

The 5 solas (sola fide, sola gratia, etc)

Calvinism

Total Depravity - We are severely damaged people, but not totally depraved. It is a denial of our free will to say we are incapable of choosing God.

Unconditional Election - Orthodoxy rejects predestination, that God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned (with the implication that God created people for damnation). (This is the more strict form, Double Predestination.

Limited Atonement - We believe Christ died for all mankind, not just the elect.

Irresistible Grace - Another rejection of free will, and a misunderstanding of Grace. Grace is God's energies, which we are free to walk into or out of; it's not a "thing" that God gives to us.

Perseverance of the Saints
The points I left, I genuinely don't see how they have any bearing on salvation. Whether God allows us free choice or not, salvation comes in the same form. There are 'heretics' as you name it who believe these in the whole spectrum of institutions. Where is the scriptural support to say these beliefs condemn a person as forfeiture of salvation?
 
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Nikti

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Seeking solace I should clarify my belief that I believe at this point with no evidence to persuade me to the contrary, that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the true apostolic church in its preservation of Holy Tradition, apostolic succession and historicity. Denominations outside of the church separated themselves, though I do not (in line with orthodox belief as I understand it) believe that christians outside the church are damned. Rather that they do not experience the fullness of the church as founded by Christ and His apostles. Unfortunately post reformation churches cannot make this claim, for many many reasons that others here would be more apt to detail to you. Ultimately the historicity of the Orthodox Church is really not disputable.

The point of my comment was that, I believe for myself and others that God leads us ultimately to the Church but we make stops along the way. I cannot in my right mind dismiss my friends and their experience, but I would say that because they participate in a church rooted in the reformation and not the apostles, they do not have the fullness of the faith. God willing and with many prayers I hope they someday do.
 
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"The points I left, I genuinely don't see how they have any bearing on salvation."

It has bearing because it isn't just what God did, who He is that saves us, for we are created in His image and likeness, and it is the likeness of God that we are to grow more and more into as we progress in our salvation. this is difficult for protestants to get because for the majority of them, salvation is something that was done on a cross. for us it is that but so much more.

Man, according to the scriptures, is created in the "likeness" and "image" of God (Gen 1:26-27).

To be like God, through the gift of God, is the essence of man's being and life. In the scriptures it says that God breathed into man, the "breath (or spirit) of life" (Gen 2:7). This teaching has given rise to the understanding in the Orthodox Church that man cannot be truly human, truly himself, without the Spirit of God.

The image of God signifies man's free will, his reason, his sense of moral responsibility, everything, which marks man out from the animal creation and makes him a person. But the image means more than that. It means that we are God's 'offspring' (Acts 17:28), his kin; it means that between us and him there is a point of contact, an essential similarity. The gulf between creature and Creator is not impassable, for because we are in God's image we can know God and have communion with him.




"When the Church is taken up to heaven, where is the earthly physical manifestation?"

We don't believe in the Rapture, which is another heretical belief held by many, not just fringe groups.
 
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Seeking solace I should clarify my belief that I believe at this point with no evidence to persuade me to the contrary, that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the true apostolic church in its preservation of Holy Tradition, apostolic succession and historicity. Denominations outside of the church separated themselves, though I do not (in line with orthodox belief as I understand it) believe that christians outside the church are damned. Rather that they do not experience the fullness of the church as founded by Christ and His apostles. Unfortunately post reformation churches cannot make this claim, for many many reasons that others here would be more apt to detail to you. Ultimately the historicity of the Orthodox Church is really not disputable.

The point of my comment was that, I believe for myself and others that God leads us ultimately to the Church but we make stops along the way. I cannot in my right mind dismiss my friends and their experience, but I would say that because they participate in a church rooted in the reformation and not the apostles, they do not have the fullness of the faith. God willing and with many prayers I hope they someday do.
I didn't think any different of your beliefs. Likely I worded my response poorly (guilty as charged).
 
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The gulf between creature and Creator is not impassable, for because we are in God's image we can know God and have communion with him.
I understand your points Greg. Honestly, this discussion I feel is fruitless, so best to end it. I consider you a brother in Christ, if you do too, I am thankful, if not - I understand. Until our time, lets leave it in Gods capable hands to lead us.
 
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Antony in Tx

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I would gently remind our non EO guests here that teaching or debating points/views that are not in keeping with the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church are not allowed in this subforum. We welcome you to join us in fellowship and to even join our conversations for your edification, but trying to correct or change the views of the EO members here is not appropriate. We have a special place for debate, St Justin's.
 
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Hi all,
I had a really discouraging conversation today with a friend of mine who is ex orthodox. It seems she's had a really bad experience with some priests and comments they've made... Her issues included that:

1) according to this priest, infants who are not baptised cannot be saved and go to hell.

2) that the heterodox go to hell

3) that when she asked him for advice he said something to the effect of " well as a priest I am the intercession for God and you" and he did not really support her when she asked about verification from scripture and tradition.

Can someone please clarify the actual Orthodox stance on these issues? I felt really bad for her, she is now evangelical and we're sharing our stories so it's really sad to see people experience this in a church I'd really really consider joining.

I'd agree with Matt. It does sound more like a possibly schismatic priest.

Do you know what parish she went to? I'm not asking you to post it here, but maybe you can look to see if it's actually a canonical parish. There are some Churches with "orthodox" as part of the name that are not canonical, or maybe not even orthodox in any sense of the word.

As others have said - we trust babies to the mercy of God. Being that they are innocent, and He is a good, loving, and merciful God ...

And we don't judge the salvation of anyone - certainly not the heterodox as a group. God judges. Though I have seen a number of laypeople who perhaps interpret certain statements by some Church Father in a way to say such a thing - but never a priest I trust.

As far as being an intercessor for us - well, yes, if a priest prays for people he is interceding for them. If I myself pray for someone, I'm interceding for them.

Did he say he was the mediator between her and Christ? I've never heard an Orthodox priest say such a thing implying we must go through a priest. I for one appreciate the sacrament of Confession, and I want Father's prayers of Absolution, but he is praying for Christ to forgive me. I ask forgiveness myself too, immediately, if I need to. That's all a little harder to address, but we don't place the priest as some kind of wall between ourselves and Christ. I'm just not sure what the priest meant.

God has been with me for a long time, and His hand has guided me through different situations. I wasn't always in the Orthodox Church. But I believe God taught me things, then brought me here.

For someone to deliberately leave I have much more grave concerns. God is always the judge, but I couldn't in conscience ever offer anyone assurance in making such a decision. You can certainly pray for her though.

I'm not sure if you were asking if the priest should be reported to his bishop? It's possible to do so. I'm also not sure if your friend "heard correctly" exactly - I can't judge from here at all of course. If a canonical priest was saying such things, perhaps there needs to be a conversation. I don't really know much about such things though - I can only ask questions and have slight opinions, but if that's what you're asking, maybe someone more knowledgeable can suggest a course of action. I would think making sure what the priest really did say ought to come before bringing before a bishop? Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding ... Perhaps not?
 
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buzuxi02

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Hi all,
I had a really discouraging conversation today with a friend of mine who is ex orthodox. It seems she's had a really bad experience with some priests and comments they've made... Her issues included that:

1) according to this priest, infants who are not baptised cannot be saved and go to hell.

2) that the heterodox go to hell

3) that when she asked him for advice he said something to the effect of " well as a priest I am the intercession for God and you" and he did not really support her when she asked about verification from scripture and tradition.


Its indeed possible that this person spoke with an Orthodox priest who said these things, but I'm skeptical of this alleged encounter. The reasons why is because these answers tend to be typical accusations that protestants have put forth against roman catholic clergy for centuries. In fact even the terminology is "protestantesque". The phrase, "Cannot be saved and go to hell", is actually what protestants teach! It is a phrase sola scripturalists use for people in the non-christian religions. This terminology is protestantesque to the core. Orthodoxy on the other hand will use the following phrase instead, 'adding to those being saved" without ever qualifying an alternate destination.

Most Orthodox priests are aware of St. Gregory of Nyssa treatise on, "Infants Early Death's", where infants being sent to hell is never entertained in the saint's writings. Instead St Gregory concedes that no punishment whatsoever can befall an infant as it had never sinned. The entire writing which looked at the issue from different angles instead tried to answer a different question altogether; what kind of rewards can a babe who never brought forth any fruits of virtue nor put forth any struggle in this life, nor matured enough to appreciate the better things in life, what can such a babe inherit in the afterlife?

Lets take a look at the second response, "Heterodox go to hell". This is a protestant-centric response of sola scripture. Because mosts bible believers truly believe that while heterodox christians can be saved, non-christians cannot, based on those same scriptures:

For example John 3.3:
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[a] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Mark 16.16:
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoeverdoes not believe will be condemned.

As you can see, based on the sola scripture doctrine all Christians have the potential of being saved while everyone else is destined to 'hell'. This initial skepticism I have of your friend's account is also reinforced from Hillsong's very own website:

We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives.We believe that in order to live the holy and fruitful lives that God intends for us, we need to be baptised in water and be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to use spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues.
What We Believe | About

In other words your friend believes the identical thing that she has concerns over. Only difference is that since infants can't 'believe in the Lord Jesus' (faulty quintessential protestant argument against infant baptism) they are spared from hell, but all non-christians are destined to hell. Notice she says the priest said 'heterodox' go to hell not that he said non-Orthodox go to hell, precisely because all christians according to Hillsong can be saved but non-christians cannot. This is confirmed on their website by the following statement of belief:


'We believe that our eternal destination of either Heaven or hell is determined by our response to the Lord Jesus Christ.'
What We Believe | About

Orthodoxy on the other hand describes gehenna fire-hell as the place where the truly wicked and evil are headed, it is not a place where people will go based on their religious affiliation. On the other hand its quite obvious that Hillsong does indeed believe that those who do not'respond' to Christ are hell-bound.
 
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Nikti

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Thankyou so much Kylissa and buzuxi for your responses. You know the more I talk to her I'm getting concerns...I can't find the name of the priest in the parish she described(she said it was at Bankstown, Sydney)...

But I will ask her to confirm the name of the church...

I don't know... I'm starting to doubt the story to the extent that she claims it... I mean I'm sure she's had bad experiences and all but that is literally the first time I have ever heard anything like that.

To be honest I think the issue is a lot deeper, I think she's exposed herself to a lot of sola scriptura/evangelical literature and been convinced of the arguments they use. She takes 'tradition of man' to be the institution of the church and priesthood and wants everything to be proved off the bible, even though she recognises that the bible came out of the church.. Combined with a bad experience and lack of knowledge of tradition and church history she's left... =\
 
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ArmyMatt

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She takes 'tradition of man' to be the institution of the church and priesthood and wants everything to be proved off the bible,

I would ask her (if it comes up) where those points are in the Bible. where does the Bible say the Church and priesthood are traditions of man and where must everything be proved off the Bible?
 
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Antony in Tx

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To believe in a God that even might send an innocent infant to hell is to believe God might send an innocent human to eternal suffering. How silly. Why would anyone worship such a God? Fortunately, every Orthodox Christian priest I have ever spoken to rejects such silliness.

I suspect it would be those who would, out of fear, worship a god who would pre-select who is and isn't to receive salvation in an arbitrary manner and then give his people the illusion of free will so that they could spend their lives speculating on who and who isn't to be saved, despite believing that they, and their god, have limited if any power to change what is already determined. (a somewhat tangential reference to Calvinism). I'm sure I could come up with a number of other scenarios where they'd feel that way about children. The point is that many Westerns (RCC and protestants) worship from a position of fear as if God is a tyrant and will kick their butts if they do not conform to His wishes/rules. This is 180 degrees away from the proper view of God as loving and merciful.
 
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I suspect it would be those who would, out of fear, worship a god who would pre-select who is and isn't to receive salvation in an arbitrary manner and then give his people the illusion of free will so that they could spend their lives speculating on who and who isn't to be saved, despite believing that they, and their god, have limited if any power to change what is already determined. (a somewhat tangential reference to Calvinism). I'm sure I could come up with a number of other scenarios where they'd feel that way about children. The point is that many Westerns (RCC and protestants) worship from a position of fear as if God is a tyrant and will kick their butts if they do not conform to His wishes/rules. This is 180 degrees away from the proper view of God as loving and merciful.
All I can say is that I can relate. And in order not to "defame God" I had quite carefully locked away any chance of looking with real honesty and following the road of my theology to its logical end. I can't help but wonder how many others are doing the same thing, as I don't think I was especially clever or anything in being able to do that.
 
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