Apostle Paul - Did he break Torah?

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

After Apostle Paul had his Damascus Road experience, he went away to learn and understand his new Master (Jesus) and did not go to Jerusalem for some time (Galatians 1:17-18).

My question is: Did Apostle Paul break Torah by not attending the Pilgrimage Festivals during the time he was away from Jerusalem?

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

TalmidofYehoshua said:
After Apostle Paul had his Damascus Road experience, he went away to learn and understand his new Master (Jesus) and did not go to Jerusalem for some time (Galatians 1:17-18).

My question is: Did Apostle Paul break Torah by not attending the Pilgrimage Festivals during the time he was away from Jerusalem?

What about Jews living in Spain or Gaul, or Germania or Brittania? Were they breaking the Torah by not attending? Is it reasonable to expect them to travel thousands of miles three times a year (heck, they wouldn't even have gotten home and they would have to turn around and head back to Jerusalem again.)

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
What about Jews living in Spain or Gaul, or Germania or Brittania? Were they breaking the Torah by not attending? Is it reasonable to expect them to travel thousands of miles three times a year (heck, they wouldn't even have gotten home and they would have to turn around and head back to Jerusalem again.)

I agree. So if Jews are not living in the Land, are they required to attend the Pilgrimage Festivals?

If not, what is the scriptural basis for not attending? Can you direct me to a passage of scripture that "exempts" someone from attending if they are outside the Land?

Thank you.

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

TalmidofYehoshua said:
I agree. So if Jews are not living in the Land, are they required to attend the Pilgrimage Festivals?

If not, what is the scriptural basis for not attending? Can you direct me to a passage of scripture that "exempts" someone from attending if they are outside the Land?

Thank you.

You agreed that it was unreasonable for people to travel long distances to attend; you seem to think that God gave no exemptions, ergo, God is unreasonable in asking them to do this.

visionary · Sep 2, 2015

Do this.. "these feasts" in remembrance of me.

Nehemiah 1:8

Click to expand...

Remember the word which You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful I will scatter you among the peoples; 9 but if you return to Me and keep My commandments and do them, though those of you who have been scattered were in the most remote part of the heavens, I will gather them from there and will bring them to the place where I have chosen to cause My name to dwell.’

Carefully read through these verses from the book of Nehemiah. Take note of the sequence of events here. The people were unfaithful and were scattered as a result of that. Then God said, “but if you return to Me and keep My commandments and do them, though those of you who have been scattered were in the most remote part of the heavens, I will gather them from there and will bring them to the place where I have chosen to cause My name to dwell.“

We are first to return to God, that is repentance, then start keeping His commandments and do them and that includes His feasts where we are. Then He will gather us and bring us back to the land of promise.

So to answer your question. No.. feasts are not fixed to Israel, Jerusalem, or the temple.

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
You agreed that it was unreasonable for people to travel long distances to attend; you seem to think that God gave no exemptions, ergo, God is unreasonable in asking them to do this.

You misunderstand. I am discussing this with someone else and I am wondering about this myself.

Since Apostle Paul wrote that he lived "according to the law" and yet he also said he stayed away from Jerusalem for a time, I am wondering how those statements are both true...unless there is some "exemption" with regards to Festival attendance.

If the Apostle did not attend the Festivals, how can he say he lived according to the Law?

I am honestly trying to find scriptural support for this "exemption".

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

visionary said:
Do this.. "these feasts" in remembrance of me.

Carefully read through these verses from the book of Nehemiah. Take note of the sequence of events here. The people were unfaithful and were scattered as a result of that. Then God said, “but if you return to Me and keep My commandments and do them, though those of you who have been scattered were in the most remote part of the heavens, I will gather them from there and will bring them to the place where I have chosen to cause My name to dwell.“

We are first to return to God, that is repentance, then start keeping His commandments and do them and that includes His feasts where we are. Then He will gather us and bring us back to the land of promise.

So to answer your question. No.. feasts are not fixed to Israel, Jerusalem, or the temple.

So then did Apostle Paul break Torah by not attending the Festivals while he was away from Jerusalem?

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

TalmidofYehoshua said:
So then did Apostle Paul break Torah by not attending the Festivals while he was away from Jerusalem?

There is no exemption unless one makes the case that such long travel is a danger to life (which it often was) based on Lev. 18:5

He seems to think he did not break the commandment. Isn't that good enough? Isn't he inspired by the Holy Spirit?

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
He seems to think he did not. Isn't that good enough? Isn't he inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps for a Christian, but not for an unbelieving Jew...

That's why I'm looking for scriptural support.

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

TalmidofYehoshua said:
Perhaps for a Christian, but not for an unbelieving Jew...

That's why I'm looking for scriptural support.

In Second Temple times it seems that the common people in the Diaspora could send representatives to Jerusalem as a proxy:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0014_0_13998.html

'As the priests were numerous and scattered throughout Palestine, it was impossible for all of them to officiate at the same time. An arrangement was therefore made whereby they were divided (in the final stage) regionally into 24 mishmarot (lit. "guards"; Ta'an. 4:2), which served in a regular weekly rotation. The mishmarot were further broken up into a varying number of battei avot ("houses" or "families"). Each division and subdivision was presided over by a head, called rosh mishmar and rosh bet av respectively (Tosef., Hor. 2: 10); there is also mention made of a bet av (Tam. 1:1; Mid. 1:8; cf. Yoma 1:5). The levites were similarly divided into 24 mishmarot, which replaced each other every week (I Chron. 25:8ff, et al.; Jos., Ant., 7:363ff.; Ta'an. 4:2). These were in turn subdivided into sevenbattei avot, and presided over by "heads." Finally, there was an analogous division of the Israelites themselves into 24 mishmarot, each of which had to take its turn in coming to Jerusalem for a week. They served to represent the whole body of the people while the daily (communal) offerings were sacrificed, for "how can a man's offering be offered while he does not stand by it?" (Ta'an. 4:2, et al.).'

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

Here is the citation from the Mishnah:

'Ta'anith 4:2 What are the Maamads? It is written, Command the children of Israel and say unto them, My oblation, my food for my offerings my by fire, a sweet savor unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season [Numbers 28:2.] How can a man's offering be offered while he does not stand by it? Therefore the First Prophets ordained twenty-four courses and for every course there was a Maamad in Jerusalem. made up of priests, Levites, and Israelites.'

http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Taanit.4?lang=en&layout=lines&sidebarLang=all

This is also mentioned in the Talmud (Taanit 27a), Josephus (Ant. 7:366; Life 1-2), and the Tosefta (Taanit 2:1)

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Here is the citation from the Mishnah:

'Ta'anith 4:2 What are the Maamads? It is written, Command the children of Israel and say unto them, My oblation, my food for my offerings my by fire, a sweet savor unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season [Numbers 28:2.] How can a man's offering be offered while he does not stand by it? Therefore the First Prophets ordained twenty-four courses and for every course there was a Maamad in Jerusalem. made up of priests, Levites, and Israelites.'

http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Taanit.4?lang=en&layout=lines&sidebarLang=all

This is also mentioned in the Talmud (Taanit 27a), Josephus (Ant. 7:366; Life 1-2), and the Tosefta (Taanit 2:1)

THANK YOU!

ContraMundum · Sep 2, 2015

Is it just me or is this a question being asked incorrectly in the first place?

Pesach, Shavuot and Sukkot can be celebrated abroad in different ways. For centuries Jews in exile have understood this, including Paul no doubt. God knew this when He allowed us to be in exile.

I think sometimes people with Bibles end up with very simplistic and idealistic ideas about how life was and is lived according to the Bible.

The question the OP'er should be asking his friend is whether or not an inability to perfectly attend to a Pilgrimage Festival is in fact "breaking" Torah. Secondly, does God hate people who are reasonably unable to fulfill mitzvahs? The elderly? The frail? Those living afar (a huge number then and now)? Do people go to "Hell" for not fulfilling these mitzvahs perfectly? If not, what is the punishment?

Etc etc..

Hank77 · Sep 2, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
What about Jews living in Spain or Gaul, or Germania or Brittania? Were they breaking the Torah by not attending? Is it reasonable to expect them to travel thousands of miles three times a year (heck, they wouldn't even have gotten home and they would have to turn around and head back to Jerusalem again.)

Where were Jews/Judah living before AD70? I don't see where God's law excused them from attending three times a year. However, if they had a very serious reason they could not be there, they were given one month of grace period, that is also in Moses' Law.

visionary said:
So to answer your question. No.. feasts are not fixed to Israel, Jerusalem, or the temple.

The OP was specifically asking about Paul, before AD70.
Will you show me where the Law changed either before, after the cross or before AD70? I can't see where it did, where God said His designated place had changed.

Paul says....
Gal 1:18 then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to enquire about Peter, and remained with him fifteen days,
Then...
Gal 2:1 Then, after fourteen years again I went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, having taken with me also Titus;

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

Hank77 said:
Where were Jews/Judah living before AD70? I don't see where God's law excused them from attending three times a year. However, if they had a very serious reason they could not be there, they were given one month of grace period, that is also in Moses' Law.

The OP was specifically asking about Paul, before AD70.
Will you show me where the Law changed either before, after the cross or before AD70? I can't see where it did, where God said His designated place had changed.

Paul says....
Gal 1:18 then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to enquire about Peter, and remained with him fifteen days,
Then...
Gal 2:1 Then, after fourteen years again I went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, having taken with me also Titus;

Jews were living all over the world WHILE the Second Temple stood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora#Pre-Roman_diaspora

Steve Petersen · Sep 2, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Is it just me or is this a question being asked incorrectly in the first place?

Pesach, Shavuot and Sukkot can be celebrated abroad in different ways. For centuries Jews in exile have understood this, including Paul no doubt. God knew this when He allowed us to be in exile.

I think sometimes people with Bibles end up with very simplistic and idealistic ideas about how life was and is lived according to the Bible.

The question the OP'er should be asking his friend is whether or not an inability to perfectly attend to a Pilgrimage Festival is in fact "breaking" Torah. Secondly, does God hate people who are reasonably unable to fulfill mitzvahs? The elderly? The frail? Those living afar (a huge number then and now)? Do people go to "Hell" for not fulfilling these mitzvahs perfectly? If not, what is the punishment?

Etc etc..

I don't think God is that unreasonable.

ContraMundum · Sep 2, 2015

Hank77 said:
Will you show me where the Law changed either before, after the cross or before AD70? I can't see where it did, where God said His designated place had changed.

God forgave and cleansed by grace without animal sacrifice during times when there was no Temple and no Ark. According to the strict application of the Mosaic law that would be a "change". According to a matured understanding of the law, it would not be a change, but most people are inconsistent on these points, really.

Shimshon · Sep 2, 2015

TalmidofYehoshua said:
Perhaps for a Christian, but not for an unbelieving Jew...

That's why I'm looking for scriptural support.

He is more than lead by the holy spirit, he was instructed by Messiah himself to not only speak to the people but to also leave Yisrael and go into the nations.

Acts 9
15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

We believe the bible right? Is that scriptural enough? Yeshua said: "Go Paul, you are my chosen instrument to carry my name before the nations and their kings......"

ContraMundum · Sep 2, 2015

Shimshon said:
He is more than lead by the holy spirit, he was instructed by Messiah himself to not only speak to the people but to also leave Yisrael and go into the nations.

Acts 9
15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

We believe the bible right? Is that scriptural enough? Yeshua said: "Go Paul, you are my chosen instrument to carry my name before the nations and their kings......"

Totally good post- and the straight to the heart of the matter.

TalmidofYehoshua · Sep 2, 2015

Shimshon said:
He is more than lead by the holy spirit, he was instructed by Messiah himself to not only speak to the people but to also leave Yisrael and go into the nations.

Acts 9
15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

We believe the bible right? Is that scriptural enough? Yeshua said: "Go Paul, you are my chosen instrument to carry my name before the nations and their kings......"

I understand your position but Messiah cannot contradict the Father. If the Father says "be in Jerusalem" how can Messiah contradict that?

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