Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.)

For rapturist the second time in the above would be the rapture correct, or would you all call it part one,with part two coming later?

Where is this two part return taught in scripture?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

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BABerean2 said:

Problem... How are they going to go back to an Old Covenant system that has been replaced by the New Covenant Grace of Christ?

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Did the law in the OT open the doors on satan's "prison of sin",
Did anyone actually "qualify" to enter heaven prior to Jesus paying the Wages of sin????

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The OT was a Schoolmaster to "Teach" and bring people to Jesus/Salvation,

So why can't God go back to using that Schoolmaster during the trib to bring people to Jesus???

Like they say, when you start off on the wrong foot, every step thereafter is wrong.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Problem... Why is a fellow Christian trying to convince me there is a way of salvation outside of the New Testament Grace of Jesus Christ?

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The plan of salvation has always been "Jesus", under Law or under Grace.

Under the law, the "body of sin" must die just as Jesus had to die.

Jews love the law and want to be under the law, so God allows them to go back under the law, but being a "Schoolmaster" it teaches them a lesson about the law they will regret, that is the "literal death" of their "Body of sin" if they want to be saved.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is God's "Chastisement" and "stripes" in their Flesh for having rejected Jesus,
The same Chastisement/Stripes Jesus suffer in his flesh for those that have accepted Jesus.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

And one of the main reasons the Church is Rapture before this Chastisement starts.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, (AC) and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

If you can't explain the differences between Israel/Church, Law/Grace, there's not much scripture you will understand.

Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

God's Rod/staff is comfort (Comforter/HG) for the church.

But Great Tribulation for Israel.
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Short Timer said:

If you can't explain the differences between Israel/Church, Law/Grace, there's not much scripture you will understand.

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Paul explained the difference between Israel and the Church in the following verses.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


You continue to confuse Israel of the Flesh with Israel of the Promise, and then claim others are confused.

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You also continue to ignore what is plainly written in the Book of Hebrews, in an attempt to make John Darby's doctrine work.

God has already make a New Covenant with Israel and Judah through the Blood bought Grace of Jesus Christ.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's Plan. The Church is the Plan.


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Grace of Christ is the only Plan of Salvation.



Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:


Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

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BABerean2 said:

Paul explained the difference between Israel and the Church in the following verses.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


You continue to confuse Israel of the Flesh with Israel of the Promise, and then claim others are confused.

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The OT is full of details about the Trib, but nothing about Jesus/Church or a Rapture,

Why is this a "mystery" to Israel???

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Why do we not find any mention of a church rapture in any of the books detailing events during the trib???

You also continue to ignore what is plainly written in the Book of Hebrews, in an attempt to make John Darby's doctrine work.

God has already make a New Covenant with Israel and Judah through the Blood bought Grace of Jesus Christ.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's Plan. The Church is the Plan.

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Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Who does these two sticks represent and when will they be joined into one stick????

The Grace of Christ is the only Plan of Salvation.

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Yes, but does the church and Israel travel the same road to get there??

Not according to my Bible, so "WHAT'S" the difference and "WHY" the difference???
All you doing is quoting scripture, you're not giving the reasons that things are difference for the Church and Israel,
and that is wherein the real understanding of scripture lays.
If you can't "show/tell" the "Reasons" God does things, then you really don't, and can't, understand it.

Riberra said:

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

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This verse is the one that proves Jesus executes His wrath upon the nations BEFORE His Return in glory. Isaiah 63:1-6 tells about that Day. Many other prophesies say that on His Day of wrath, he won't be seen and they simply don't match what we are told about the actual Return.
That His eyes were like fire and He throws the beast into the Lake of fire after Armageddon, again doesn't match with the 70+ Bible prophesies describing the forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.

Zephaniah 3:8 is a gathering of those nations who hate Israel, it will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83:1-8 and is reiterated in Joel 3:4 Armageddon will be fought by the kings of all the nations of the world. Revelation 16:14

Short Timer said:

The OT is full of details about the Trib, but nothing about Jesus/Church or a Rapture,

Why is this a "mystery" to Israel???

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It was not a "mystery" to Hosea, as plainly written by the Apostle Paul.



Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.


Quoting scripture is often the best way to show that what some claim, does not match up with what is plainly written in God's Word.

This is a perfect example.

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keras said:

This verse is the one that proves Jesus executes His wrath upon the nations BEFORE His Return in glory. Isaiah 63:1-6 tells about that Day. Many other prophesies say that on His Day of wrath, he won't be seen and they simply don't match what we are told about the actual Return.
That His eyes were like fire and He throws the beast into the Lake of fire after Armageddon, again doesn't match with the 70+ Bible prophesies describing the forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.

Zephaniah 3:8 is a gathering of those nations who hate Israel, it will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83:1-8 and is reiterated in Joel 3:4 Armageddon will be fought by the kings of all the nations of the world. Revelation 16:14

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Indeed, this is EXACTLY what Revelation shows us: Jesus does not return until the trumpets judgments, then the vial judgments are finished. The Father's wrath is poured out to the full in the vials.

Psalm3704 said:

They never left the old covenant. They are going to the new covenant through the Abrahamic covenant.

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Exactly! It is why it is DANIEL's 70th week, not Paul's. Daniel said it was for HIS PEOPLE. The moment after the rapture of the church, the age of Grace will end and the world will be back under LAW for one week of 7 years.

But there will be a difference: Now Jesus Christ has died and risen from the dead.

iamlamad said:

The moment after the rapture of the church, the age of Grace will end and the world will be back under LAW for one week of 7 years.

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Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

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Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

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n2thelight said:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.) For rapturist the second time in the above would be the rapture correct, or would you all call it part one,with part two coming later? Where is this two part return taught in scripture?

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"The second time" here is contrasted with "the first time" when He bore the sins of many as the Lamb of God.

This Scripture is in fact referring to the appearing of Christ AT THE RAPTURE. See 1 Jn 3:1-3. Why do people believe in a Rapture? Because the Bible reveals that there will be a Rapture! "Without sin unto salvation" is a reference to the completion of salvation -- perfection -- body, soul, and spirit without sin, without corruption, without mortality. This can only happen at the Rapture.

Job8 said:

This Scripture is in fact referring to the appearing of Christ AT THE RAPTURE. See 1 Jn 3:1-3. Why do people believe in a Rapture? Because the Bible reveals that there will be a Rapture! "Without sin unto salvation" is a reference to the completion of salvation -- perfection -- body, soul, and spirit without sin, without corruption, without mortality. This can only happen at the Rapture.

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Why do people believe in a rapture removal to heaven before any nasty testing or difficulties?
Because they are deluded by false teachers who speak fables to people who only listen to nice sermons and pleasant outcomes. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Thinking that scriptures like 1 John 3:1-3 proves a rapture, is a stretch of the imagination. We will see Him as He is AFTER He comes to earth for His Millennium reign. And only those who have been killed for their faith will be resurrected. Revelation 20:4 The whole rapture theory is false, because what is promised to His people is protection during His Day of wrath and then they go to live in all of the Holy Land, fulfilling their destiny. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

Unbelievers are already deceived,so who will satan deceive if the Church is gone?

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches us that we will be leaving this world when Christian suffering really begins. The doctrine teaches that we will be leaving those who suffer, and those who do not know Jesus Christ as their Savior. The doctrine teaches that we want to abandon the ones who will be “left behind.” Such thinking is not the thinking that Paul demonstrated.

2 Corinthians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;

(4) who comforts us in all our affliction, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, through the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

(5) For as the sufferings of Christ abound to us, even so our comfort also abounds through Christ.

(6) But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation. If we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer.

(7) Our hope for you is steadfast, knowing that, since you are partakers of the sufferings, so also are you of the comfort.

(8) For we don't desire to have you uninformed, brothers, concerning our affliction which happened to us in Asia, that we were weighed down exceedingly, beyond our power, so much that we despaired even of life.

(9) Yes, we ourselves have had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead,

(10) who delivered us out of so great a death, and does deliver; on whom we have set our hope that he will also still deliver us;

keras said:

Riberra said:

Revelation 19:13
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

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This verse is the one that proves Jesus executes His wrath upon the nations BEFORE His Return in glory.

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-The 6 th seal events will start the beginning of the Tribulation.
-The killing of the two witnesses by the Beast will mark the middle of the Tribulation and the beginning of the 3 1/2 years of the reign of the Beast.
-God will execute His wrath by pouring out the 7 vials.

-The Day of the Lord /Jesus Second Coming happen at the 7 Th vial and will include the battle of Armageddon.

Do you really believe that Revelation 19:13 is not related to the same event ie - Jesus returning in Glory for the Armageddon's battle?-The battle of that great day of God Almighty mentioned in Revelation 16:14.-

11...Him that sat on the white horse...and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.- ..
12-His eyes were as a flame of fire-,
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

BABerean2 said:

Quoting scripture is often the best way to show that what some claim, does not match up with what is plainly written in God's Word.

This is a perfect example.

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This is only valid if you apply the correct scripture and not use the same scriptures from Paul for every rebuttal.

n2thelight said:

Unbelievers are already deceived,so who will satan deceive if the Church is gone?

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Professing believers that don't believe in a rapture. Learn the Parable of the Marriage Supper.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Psalm3704 said:

Professing believers that don't believe in a rapture. Learn the Parable of the Marriage Supper.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

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That is not the belief in the pre-tribulation rapture who will save the believers .But the belief in Jesus Christ !
If you have placed all your faith in the pre-tribulation rapture, as your post seem to point out ,you have been wholly deceived and seduced.


2 Corinthians 11:3King James Version (KJV)

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Riberra said:

That is not the belief in the pre-tribulation rapture who will save the believers .But the belief in Jesus Christ !
If you have placed all your faith in the pre-tribulation rapture, as your post seem to point out ,you have been wholly deceived and seduced.

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Can't understand what you wrote. Explain.

Psalm3704 said:

Can't understand what you wrote. Explain.

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Are you saying that you cannot make the difference between the belief in a doctrine -the pre-trib rapture doctrine invented by men- and the Belief in Jesus Christ?

Answer that question:
Who gone to Save you ?

1-The belief in Jesus Christ
or
2-The belief in the pre-tribulation rapture?