We're in the end of days

keras said:

Right, Revelation 12:1-5 refers to Jesus and His first Advent.

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You are suggesting Parts of Revelation have already been FULFILLED?

How Preterist of you.
Welcome to the club

parousia70 said:

You are suggesting Parts of Revelation have already been FULFILLED?
How Preterist of you. Welcome to the club

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The 'club' I belong to, is the one where we use common sense and understanding of what all the Bible prophets have told us.
From the historical record, it is obvious that the first five Seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven. Revelation 5:6
We therefore, await the Sixth Seal worldwide disasters, the event that will commence all that is prophesied for the end times, leading up to the Return of Jesus. Thinking that all those vividly detailed prophesies have been fulfilled, is wrong and just leaves all those who do; in the dark.

OK, but Again, what you are espousing is partial preterism.

parousia70 said:

OK, but Again, what you are espousing is partial preterism.

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If that's what you call recognising historical facts.
What is seriously wrong is when full preterists force history to conform to their belief that all the prophesies are fulfilled. Its easy to see why they do that; reading prophesies like Isaiah 24 for example, makes anyone want to avoid the thought that such a terrible time could come in their lifetime.
Only when the basis of God's plans for His people is comprehended, how He will bless all who believe in Him, all who stand firm in their faith during this terrible time of testing, that we can then look forward to an amazing future.
All as detailed throughout the Bible. Bring it on Lord!

keras said:

The 'club' I belong to, is the one where we use common sense and understanding of what all the Bible prophets have told us.

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And a set of totally unScriptural presuppositions "as lang's my arm" that you "interpret" the Scripture into "meaning".

From the historical record, it is obvious that the first five Seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven. Revelation 5:6

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Congratulations, you're a partial preterist! Don't tell anyone else, they'll declare you anathema.

We therefore, await the Sixth Seal worldwide disasters, the event that will commence all that is prophesied for the end times, leading up to the Return of Jesus. Thinking that all those vividly detailed prophesies have been fulfilled, is wrong and just leaves all those who do; in the dark.

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It's specifically the abominable belief that the Church will be replaced by Temple Judaism and animal sacrifice in The Millennium that leaves DFs in the dark.

keras said:

If that's what you call recognising historical facts.

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That's precisely what it is.

What is seriously wrong is when full preterists force history to conform to their belief that all the prophesies are fulfilled.

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Not all. For instance, orthodox preterists don't believe that our Lord has returned. We do insist that the Temple was rendered desolate and them destroyed, because it was. We believe that sacrifice and oblation ceased, becaise they did. We believe that Jerusalem was "compassed about by armies"because it was. It's a pretty safe bet that Nero was "The Beast", represented by 666. The only way you can argue against that is by saying that it happened but somehow didn't "count",which is ridiculous.

Jipsah said:

Not all. For instance, orthodox preterists don't believe that our Lord has returned. We do insist that the Temple was rendered desolate and them destroyed, because it was. We believe that sacrifice and oblation ceased, becaise they did. We believe that Jerusalem was "compassed about by armies"because it was. It's a pretty safe bet that Nero was "The Beast", represented by 666. The only way you can argue against that is by saying that it happened but somehow didn't "count",which is ridiculous.

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I argue against the preterist view, because what has happened simply doesn't fit what is prophesied to happen. In many instances, there has been a preview of the last days events, this is just as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 10:11.
For example; we have a good record of the Roman conquest in 70 AD, by Josephus. He says that Titus did all he could to avoid the destruction of the Temple. He certainly never sat in the Holy of Holies, as the real Anti-Christ is prophesied to do.
That there is yet to be another Exodus of all the Israelites, true descendants or grafted in, is clear from Isaiah 11:11
But the 'biggie' that we face right now is the second reset of civilization: As we are now like in the days of Noah, the Lord will carry out His judgement and scoffing about this truth, is foolishness. 2 Peter 3:5-7

keras said:

I argue against the preterist view,

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Even though you personally hold views exclusive to preterism....

For example; we have a good record of the Roman conquest in 70 AD, by Josephus. He says that Titus did all he could to avoid the destruction of the Temple. He certainly never sat in the Holy of Holies, as the real Anti-Christ is prophesied to do.

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There is not one single Bible verse that states antichrist was prophesied to sit in the Holy of Holies.
Not even one.

parousia70 said:

Even though you personally hold views exclusive to preterism....

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As I said, I know historical facts and where they prove a fulfillment of the Prophetic Word, then that is hardly exclusive to the preterism that you espouse. All the prophesies about the first Advent of Jesus were fulfilled and we can expect the rest to be as well. Why not? Just because you don't like that idea?

parousia70 said:

There is not one single Bible verse that states antichrist was prophesied to sit in the Holy of Holies.
Not even one.

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Daniel 11:31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 plus the details in Revelation about the 'beast' are conclusive. At some future time there will be a new Temple, the Holy Land will be conquered by ungodly forces, Daniel 7:25, and a leader will desecrate the sanctuary. Daniel 9:26 That there has been a previous desecration; in 167 BCE, does not preclude another, one that will make a final and complete end to all those prophesies.

It seems that you and all who choose to discount the prophesies are a sad cases of chronophobia. Fear of the future is not something we Christians should have, practically all of the prophesies saying how the world will be judged and punished, also have the Lord's promises of His great blessings to all those who love Him and keep His Commandments.

keras said:

As I said, I know historical facts and where they prove a fulfillment of the Prophetic Word, then that is hardly exclusive to the preterism that you espouse.

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I may espouse a different degree of preterism than you do, but we both hold views held only by preterists. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

Daniel 11:31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 plus the details in Revelation about the 'beast' are conclusive. At some future time there will be a new Temple, the Holy Land will be conquered by ungodly forces, Daniel 7:25, and a leader will desecrate the sanctuary. Daniel 9:26 That there has been a previous desecration; in 167 BCE, does not preclude another, one that will make a final and complete end to all those prophesies.

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The fact remains that none of those verses you posted mention anything about the antichrist of scripture. Not even one. The bible contains very specific teaching on what antichrist is, and none of the verses you posted have anything to do with what the bible actually teaches the antichrist of scripture is.

It seems that you and all who choose to discount the prophesies are a sad cases of chronophobia. Fear of the future is not something we Christians should have,

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You are quite mistaken. I have nothing but hope and excitement about the future of the world!

parousia70 said:

The fact remains that none of those verses you posted mention anything about the antichrist of scripture. Not even one. The bible contains very specific teaching on what antichrist is, and none of the verses you posted have anything to do with what the bible actually teaches the antichrist of scripture is.

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Such definitive statements make it easy for anyone to prove your errors.
We see in 1 John 2:18-25 and 1 John 4:1-3, that the spirit of Anti-Christ is present in the world now. We can recognise that spirit from anybody who does not acknowledge at Jesus came from God.
This person who is prophesied to lead a worldwide kingdom, Daniel 7:23, will refuse to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Revelation 13:6 He, therefore, is a type of anti-Christ and is properly referred to as the Anti-Christ.

keras said:

This person who is prophesied to lead a worldwide kingdom, Daniel 7:23, will refuse to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Revelation 13:6 He, therefore, is a type of anti-Christ and is properly referred to as the Anti-Christ.

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Sorry, but there's no "The Antichrist" in Scripture. The term is made up.

zelosravioli said:

If a Christian helps them build the Temple, are they going to participate in the physical services too, or do they just watch?:
‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “In the first month, on the first of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary. 19 “The priest shall take some of the blood from the sin offering and put it on the door posts of the house, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar and on the posts of the gate of the inner court. 20 “Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house. 21 “In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. 22 “On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering. 23 “During the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering. 24 “He shall provide as a grain offering an ephah with a bull, an ephah with a ram and a hin of oil with an ephah. (Ezekiel 45)

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If you only look at Ezekiel 40 is a vision that God took Ezekiel through but this is seen again in Revelation as John is seeing *almost* the same thing in Revelation 21, the difference is Christ has conquered sin and death at the cross.

Why folks can't make the connection is beyond me.

The on passage avoided is Ezekiel 43:
10 “As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
12 This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Can anyone point to Israel ever being ashamed of their iniquities...or..get what the point of the passage is there.

Why does Ezekiel end so abruptly? Ezekiel 48:30-35
30 “These are the exits of the city: on the north side, 4,500 cubits by measurement,
31 shall be the gates of the city, named for the tribes of Israel, three gates toward the north: the gate of Reuben, one; the gate of Judah, one; the gate of Levi, one.
32 On the east side, 4,500 cubits, shall be three gates: the gate of Joseph, one; the gate of Benjamin, one; the gate of Dan, one.
33 On the south side, 4,500 cubits by measurement, shall be three gates: the gate of Simeon, one; the gate of Issachar, one; the gate of Zebulun, one.
34 On the west side, 4,500 cubits, shall be three gates: the gate of Gad, one; the gate of Asher, one; the gate of Naphtali, one.
35 The city shall be 18,000 cubits round about; and the name of the city from that day shall be, ‘The Lord is there.’”

Take a look at Revelation 21:22-26:
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The temple Ezekiel saw was in heaven...JESUS BUILT IT WITH 12 APOSTLES He commisioned...IT IS THE CHURCH!!!

Revelation 11:15-19:
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

The above happened when Jesus died on the cross! Hebrews 9:23-26 makes that very clear:
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees? John 2:18, 19?:
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

....

Jipsah said:

Sorry, but there's no "The Antichrist" in Scripture. The term is made up.

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The "Literalist" speaks. So, because the bible does not say "The Zebra" the zebra does not exist....right? Makes just as much sense as what you just wrote.

ebedmelech said:

The on passage avoided is Ezekiel 43:
10 “As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
12 This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Can anyone point to Israel ever being ashamed of their iniquities...or..get what the point of the passage is there.

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Yes, I can. This is still future, the House of Israel; not yet joined with the House of Judah, will repent and be ashamed of their iniquities. Deuteronomy 32:36, Isaiah 1:25, Amos 3:2, Ezekiel 20:34-36, Ezekiel 18:30-32, 1 Corinthians 3:13

And who belongs to the House of Israel? All the righteous Christ believing people. Romans 9:24-26

civilwarbuff said:

The "Literalist" speaks.

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We Orthodox Prets do take the Scripture pretty literally, at least by DF standards. Y'all pretty much just make it up as you go.

So, because the bible does not say "The Zebra" the zebra does not exist....right?

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Pretty lame analogy, though, isn't it? Or do zebras figure largely in DF doctrine? (Wouldn't surprise me much if they did. Y'all seem to be able to find lots of stuff in Scripture that isn't actually there.)

Makes just as much sense as what you just wrote.

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I.E., you don't understand what I wrote. No surprise there.

The trick is that "The Antichrist" is a construct arrived at by pasting together different, largely unrelated, Scriptures, and coming up with a kind of composite character you can conveniently include in your "interpretations" of many different part of the Bible to try and accommodate your made up doctrine. You take the Beast from Revelation, the Man of Sin from 2 Thessalonians, the antichrists of the Johannine epistles, and a largish dollop of creative license, and come up with a End Times booger man. But that's typical of DF doctrine as a whole, isn't it?

civilwarbuff said:

The "Literalist" speaks. So, because the bible does not say "The Zebra" the zebra does not exist....right? Makes just as much sense as what you just wrote.

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BTW, do you believe the Civil War actually ended, or is there a thousand or so year "gap" after which the Confederacy will be reformed, the AntiLincoln will become president of the US, and the WBTS will begin again? <Laugh>

Jipsah said:

BTW, do you believe the Civil War actually ended, or is there a thousand or so year "gap" after which the Confederacy will be reformed, the AntiLincoln will become president of the US, and the WBTS will begin again? <Laugh>

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Again, no intelligent response just lame one-liners. <feeling sorry for you>

keras said:

But I have yet to see the verse that says something like: I will take My people out of the world, up to heaven so they will avoid any nasty tribulations..

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Rev 3 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour oftemptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The raptured are taken to where ?
Rev 7 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Who r they ?
14 These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Jesus bless u all HalleluYAH

Jipsah said:

The trick is that "The Antichrist" is a construct arrived at by pasting together different, largely unrelated, Scriptures, and coming up with a kind of composite character you can conveniently include in your "interpretations" of many different part of the Bible to try and accommodate your made up doctrine. You take the Beast from Revelation, the Man of Sin from 2 Thessalonians, the antichrists of the Johannine epistles, and a largish dollop of creative license, and come up with a End Times booger man. But that's typical of DF doctrine as a whole, isn't it?

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QFT