Kuntillet Ajrud Pithoi

Robban · Sep 1, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
We might be talking about different things? I agree that the Jewish calendar matches the full moons, etc.
I'm saying the picture and inscription on the jar from 800 BCE mean that the Israelites (northern tribes) celebrated the birth of the Yahweh at the spring equinox in the month of Nisan (first month of ecclesiastical year) when the sun rose under the constellation Taurus. Yahweh of Samaria was a golden calf and also the sun god. The pictures are constellations. The sun rising was like the golden calf being born and suckling from its mother (Taurus).

Jeroboam.
Should say it all, he introduced what could be called an "iron curtain",
an idol in the North and an idol in the South.
The people were not allowed to journey to Jerusalem for the festivals.

1 Kings 12:32,
And Jeroboam made a festival in the 8th day of the month like the festival which was in Judah,
and he brought up offerings on the altar,
so he did in Beth El to slaughter the calves which he had made.
And he placed in Beth El the priests of the high places which he had made.

And much more bad did he do, he misled the people,
the people were led off in slavery,
the land was filled with Another peoples, since the head Town was called Samaria the land was then called Samaria.

From memory except 1 Kings 12:32.

cloudyday2 · Sep 1, 2015

The question I have is: did the Torah exist in its current form at 800 BCE when these pots were decorated? In other words, were the people of Samaria rebelling against the Torah, or did the Torah of that time bless their behavior? Maybe there was no Torah - only disconnected stories and rituals? I believe there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments recorded in the Bible. This doesn't sound very unified to me.

ChetSinger · Sep 1, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
The question I have is: did the Torah exist in its current form at 800 BCE when these pots were decorated? In other words, were the people of Samaria rebelling against the Torah, or did the Torah of that time bless their behavior? Maybe there was no Torah - only disconnected stories and rituals? I believe there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments recorded in the Bible. This doesn't sound very unified to me.

I think it did.

We know from Ugarit that their language was a written one by that time. And I've read that the treaty in Deuteronomy was a kind of patron-client contract common to that particular period. Also, I've read that the Torah contains Egyptian words consistent with Moses' upbringing there.

LoAmmi · Sep 1, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
The question I have is: did the Torah exist in its current form at 800 BCE when these pots were decorated? In other words, were the people of Samaria rebelling against the Torah, or did the Torah of that time bless their behavior? Maybe there was no Torah - only disconnected stories and rituals? I believe there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments recorded in the Bible. This doesn't sound very unified to me.

There aren't three different versions of the Ten Commandments recorded as far as I'm aware.

Are you confusing it with the three different numbering schemes of the 10 between Jews, Catholics, and Protestants?

cloudyday2 · Sep 1, 2015

ChetSinger said:
I think it did.

We know from Ugarit that their language was a written one by that time. And I've read that the treaty in Deuteronomy was a kind of patron-client contract common to that particular period. Also, I've read that the Torah contains Egyptian words consistent with Moses' upbringing there.

I think most scholars believe that the Torah was composed from earlier sources from varying traditions. It's like a house that has been remodeled - maybe even splicing several neighboring houses together. The presence of some ancient furniture doesn't make the current design of the house ancient. That's how I see it anyway.

cloudyday2 · Sep 1, 2015

LoAmmi said:
There aren't three different versions of the Ten Commandments recorded as far as I'm aware.

Are you confusing it with the three different numbering schemes of the 10 between Jews, Catholics, and Protestants?

Sorry, I can't find a more neutral source, but here is something from an atheist website:

There are three versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. Two of them are very similar, Exodus 20:2-17[3] and Deuteronomy 5:6-21.[4]

The third version, in Exodus 34:12-26,[5] is radically different, and is the only one which the Bible refers to as "the Ten Commandments". This is the second set which were given to Moses following the destruction of the first tablets when he suffered from an anger management failure after witnessing the Israelites worshipping the golden calf. While it has a few similarities to the original set, it does not include well known rational commandments such as "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not kill"; but has instead instructions about holy days, not cooking kids in their mothers' milk, and God expresses a distaste for sacrifices containing honey, leaven, or both blood and yeast (although either alone is apparently quite acceptable). God says (Exodus 34:1) that this second set was also written on the first pair of tablets, so the "Ten Commandments" from Exodus 20 are probably not the Ten Commandments at all.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

LoAmmi · Sep 1, 2015

I believe they are misreading Exodus 34.

LoAmmi · Sep 1, 2015

Although, to be honest, the Ten Commandments is kind of a misnomer anyway; there are 613 commandments in the Torah.

LaSorcia · Sep 1, 2015

LoAmmi said:
Although, to be honest, the Ten Commandments is kind of a misnomer anyway; there are 613 commandments in the Torah.

Should we call the 10 commandments, "The Law, Abridged Version", and the Torah, "The Law, Unabridged Version"? I'm not belittling it, I just never thought of it that way before.

LoAmmi · Sep 1, 2015

LaSorcia said:
Should we call the 10 commandments, "The Law, Abridged Version", and the Torah, "The Law, Unabridged Version"? I'm not belittling it, I just never thought of it that way before.

LOL

There are varying opinions on the whole thing. To be honest, I tend to see all 613 as standalone things that cannot be compressed. But there are stories of rabbis saying that the whole of the Torah is that which is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor and that the rest is commentary. It is clear, though, that those rabbis would never have said don't follow the 613, but that how we treat others is of such importance that the Torah can be seen as leading to that.

cloudyday2 · Sep 1, 2015

LoAmmi said:
I believe they are misreading Exodus 34.

Hmmm. Maybe so, also I don't want to break the general apologetics rule.

Mostly I wanted to see if anybody has heard of theories connecting the constellations Taurus, Gemini, and Cancer to the decorations on the jars. I think that myth about the suckling calf might go way, way back to the earliest herdsman sitting around their campfires looking at the stars and telling stories.

cloudyday2 · Sep 10, 2015

I stumbled onto another clue suggesting that this Hebrew religious imagery was constellations. The bull that I suspect was Taurus has its head to the right and is looking backwards across its own body (to the left). This is different from some depictions of the constellation Taurus, but it matches exactly with the depiction of Taurus in the Egyptian Dendera Zodiac. The seated goddess in the Hebrew drawing also looks very similar to the image of the goddess Ninmah in the Dendera Zodiac except that the presumed harp in the Hebrew image is a child representing the creation of humanity in the Egyptian image.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_zodiac
http://solariapublications.com/2011/04/09/hello-world/

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Kuntillet Ajrud Pithoi

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