Why does God not equal the 4th person?

AdamE

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The Holy Spirit prays for you. Prayer is normally addressed to the father. Just think of it as three distinct persons of the same body performing different roles.

Yeah, sort of makes a bit more sense. The other feature of God which I don't entirely agree with is God being timeless. Would a timeless God not be useless in his actions? He can't move, or create or think. How can a timeless God have any personal relationship with us? It is an eternity of nothingness. For God to have created the universe, there must have been a time for when he decided to create and then a time to when he did create. Time may not have existed before the Universe, but once the universe was created, god was temporal in time. Would you agree?
 
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Yeah, sort of makes a bit more sense. The other feature of God which I don't entirely agree with is God being timeless. Would a timeless God not be useless in his actions? He can't move, or create or think. How can a timeless God have any personal relationship with us? It is an eternity of nothingness. For God to have created the universe, there must have been a time for when he decided to create and then a time to when he did create. Time may not have existed before the Universe, but once the universe was created, god was temporal in time. Would you agree?
Not entirely sure I know what you mean. Time as we know it is relative. God is not affected or constrained by time. If creation can exist eternally, surely time is limitless. The only boundaries set are by Gods purpose. I suppose it's like holding a piece of string with arms that stretch eternally - there is no limit to the holder, and the string is only as long as chosen.

In regards to actions, I don't feel there is movement when you encompass all. Thinking and creating are only limited by time as we understand it; even our understanding shows how relative time can be. Of course God can have a relationship with us, the very idea of redemption is a timeline of - eternity.

Off for the night, any questions you have pop them below and I'll answer when I have time tomorrow.
 
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Mina198

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Not entirely sure I know what you mean. Time as we know it is relative. God is not affected or constrained by time. If creation can exist eternally, surely time is limitless. The only boundaries set are by Gods purpose. I suppose it's like holding a piece of string with arms that stretch eternally - there is no limit to the holder, and the string is only as long as chosen.

In regards to actions, I don't feel there is movement when you encompass all. Thinking and creating are only limited by time as we understand it; even our understanding shows how relative time can be. Of course God can have a relationship with us, the very idea of redemption is a timeline of - eternity.

Off for the night, any questions you have pop them below and I'll answer when I have time tomorrow.
Thanks friend
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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My humble take on the trinity has been purely mathematical, for the most part. It is based on the premise that God has an infinite nature. Being that infinity is unlike any of the finite numbers, I would argue that finite beings like us would get a false view of the Trinity any time we use finite analogies to describe him/them. If we compare God to the leaves of a clover, or the layers of an egg, or whatnot, we use imagery that is easier to grasp, but further from the truth.

The mathematical understanding of infinity is not so much to work with it directly, but to approach it. We say that as x approaches infinity, then certain things become true about it. For example, as x approaches infinity, 3x equals 1x. That is to say that if such a number as infinity could exist, then three infinities is synonymous with one infinity. You can't say this about any other number, except maybe zero. Multiples of four do not equal four. They might equal eight, or twelve, or sixteen, but more than one multiple of four never equals four. With infinity, any multiple of infinity is the same as one infinity. In other words, if it were possible to make another god, complete with the infinite nature of God, then that god could not exist without also being God. If God had been four or five or six, and if each of those units had been infinite in nature, then all of them would necessarily have been God, singular. If we say that God is infinite, and if we say that God is three, then it means the very same thing as saying that God is one. Being one does not rule out being also three, so long as we are discussing an infinite being.

The statement goes as follows:

(Limit as x approaches infinity)
3x = 1x

The question was whether that 1x on the right can be brought over to the 3x on the left to make a total of 4x. That would violate the rules of logic. Let's take a more traditional equation:

2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples

If we took the 4 apples on the right and brought them over to the left side, then what we would be doing is subtracting 4 from the right and adding 4 to the left, which is incorrect. It would give us this:

2 apples + 2 apples + 4 apples = 0 apples

Working with infinity is more abstract, but that rule still holds true. If we take the statement, "I am Fred," we could express it mathematically:

I = Fred

No, we can't say that because I am Fred that it means that there are two of us (I, and Fred). The same logic works when we say that three of God is the same as one of God. It doesn't logically follow that it totals four of God. No one ever said there was four of God. All we said was that if God is three, then that is the same as saying that God is one (three God equals one God).

Well, that was probably as confusing as a snowball's most inhospitable environment, but that's the way I see it, in case it means anything to you.
 
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brinny

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My humble take on the trinity has been purely mathematical, for the most part. It is based on the premise that God has an infinite nature. Being that infinity is unlike any of the finite numbers, I would argue that finite beings like us would get a false view of the Trinity any time we use finite analogies to describe him/them. If we compare God to the leaves of a clover, or the layers of an egg, or whatnot, we use imagery that is easier to grasp, but further from the truth.

The mathematical understanding of infinity is not so much to work with it directly, but to approach it. We say that as x approaches infinity, then certain things become true about it. For example, as x approaches infinity, 3x equals 1x. That is to say that if such a number as infinity could exist, then three infinities is synonymous with one infinity. You can't say this about any other number, except maybe zero. Multiples of four do not equal four. They might equal eight, or twelve, or sixteen, but more than one multiple of four never equals four. With infinity, any multiple of infinity is the same as one infinity. In other words, if it were possible to make another god, complete with the infinite nature of God, then that god could not exist without also being God. If God had been four or five or six, and if each of those units had been infinite in nature, then all of them would necessarily have been God, singular. If we say that God is infinite, and if we say that God is three, then it means the very same thing as saying that God is one. Being one does not rule out being also three, so long as we are discussing an infinite being.

The statement goes as follows:

(Limit as x approaches infinity)
3x = 1x

The question was whether that 1x on the right can be brought over to the 3x on the left to make a total of 4x. That would violate the rules of logic. Let's take a more traditional equation:

2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples

If we took the 4 apples on the right and brought them over to the left side, then what we would be doing is subtracting 4 from the right and adding 4 to the left, which is incorrect. It would give us this:

2 apples + 2 apples + 4 apples = 0 apples

Working with infinity is more abstract, but that rule still holds true. If we take the statement, "I am Fred," we could express it mathematically:

I = Fred

No, we can't say that because I am Fred that it means that there are two of us (I, and Fred). The same logic works when we say that three of God is the same as one of God. It doesn't logically follow that it totals four of God. No one ever said there was four of God. All we said was that if God is three, then that is the same as saying that God is one (three God equals one God).

Well, that was probably as confusing as a snowball's most inhospitable environment, but that's the way I see it, in case it means anything to you.

LOL! i sorta' followed/grasped it.......fascinating!
 
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Gnarwhal

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I understand the Trinity is a mind blowing concept that even most fundamentalist Christian's like myself barely understand, however, one area of discussion that rarely comes up, is if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seperate, yet there is only one God, does that not make God a seperate being himself? Trinity(3 persons)=God(1 being). So is this God(1) another being? For example, in the Bible we read, "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me"? and also "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." We can see God is talking here as he is one being, hence where the confusion for me comes into play. I will like to reaffirm while I do believe in the Trinity, without fully grasping it, I find this question a challenging and interesting mystery.

Thoughts?

You should discuss this with your priest.
 
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fat wee robin

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This is where the logic stacks, because the Father is fully God I agree, and thus the 4th person idea fails. It's just when we see God talk in the Bible, I get confused, who is talking? After all, saying it is God talking or God is one so there is only one voice, is just a cop out, we are talking about 3 distinct persons making one true God, but key word, they are distinct, hence the term God is talking is very ambiguous. These are the little bits that confuse me about the term God.
There were schisms and people killed for the wrong idea about this and it is about time we can talk freely among the 'laity' ,for only among good people can the truth be known. The powerful no longer dictate to us ,we can learn directly from the Holy Spirit .
For me there is only One God who manifests as three personae to us little persons down below ; so God has decided (as the law maker ,the father ,) that in order to save us He must take on the role of Saviour (Jesus) ,and when He is in heaven He is in the role of the Holy Spirit ,as He is no longer physically here on earth ,to guide and protect those who are His children .
When someone prays to the Father he is praying to God in His role as lawmaker ,originator ;That is why Jesus said we had to pray to the Father ,as only in this, role does God create ,and have Power over all that there is .
In becoming a man ,God put Himself in His role as Saviour which is a temporary position to allow us to enter into Heaven with Him, and as the Holy Spirit also temporary ,until we are all in Heaven ,whenever that might be.
So not three Persons ,but three personas ,not the same thing .
 
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fat wee robin

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You should discuss this with your priest.
...just wondering.....how extensively have you read/studied the Bible?

On a side note, there is mention of one that was bound and determined to be "as" God. In other words this one wanted to overthrow God and still attempts to do so to this day. It is written that this one is the father of lies and cunningly deceptive and revels ion confusion.

Is that true?
I have studied the religion over the last year quite thoroughly, the Bible not so much. In relation to your question, yes it is true, it is Lucifer, who was one of the highest Angels with God until he got jealous and wanted to have all his power.


This relates back to my original post. Gods voice is so hard to picture when we believe in a Trinity.
It is badly understood, and badly taught .
 
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daydreamergurl15

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Because God is the 3 beings, and He is not an individual member next to the 3 Beings.
God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit.

This is a woeful comparison so hopefully you won't point out the holes of the comparison just take it for what it is, think of them as a council, has 3 members and we call them "Council" which includes the 3 but they make decisions as one unified entity.
 
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I understand the Trinity is a mind blowing concept that even most fundamentalist Christian's like myself barely understand, however, one area of discussion that rarely comes up, is if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seperate, yet there is only one God, does that not make God a seperate being himself? Trinity(3 persons)=God(1 being). So is this God(1) another being? For example, in the Bible we read, "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me"? and also "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." We can see God is talking here as he is one being, hence where the confusion for me comes into play. I will like to reaffirm while I do believe in the Trinity, without fully grasping it, I find this question a challenging and interesting mystery.

Thoughts?


One God in three persons - is not four persons.
 
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Strong in Him

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even thought I know this is not true and was rather wanting some clarification on who God is in relation to the trinity as a just one being and not three persons.

I don't get what you mean by "who God is in relation to the trinity"; God is the trinity. One God, Father Son and Holy Spirit.
 
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John 1:1 GodCZU

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Maybe try and humanize it so as to understand.
John is a man.
Who is a banker
Who is a husband

Three distinct roles occupied by one man. Scriptures tell us God is a spirit. God is holy. God is the holy spirit and it was that which empowered Yeshua to act in the name of his father.


I understand the Trinity is a mind blowing concept that even most fundamentalist Christian's like myself barely understand, however, one area of discussion that rarely comes up, is if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seperate, yet there is only one God, does that not make God a seperate being himself? Trinity(3 persons)=God(1 being). So is this God(1) another being? For example, in the Bible we read, "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me"? and also "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." We can see God is talking here as he is one being, hence where the confusion for me comes into play. I will like to reaffirm while I do believe in the Trinity, without fully grasping it, I find this question a challenging and interesting mystery.

Thoughts?
 
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