Say what????

Open Heart · Sep 1, 2015

visionary said:
Learning more about this "open door" policy. Pope Francis will give all priests discretion to formally forgive women who have had abortions during the Roman Catholic Church's upcoming Holy Year, in the Argentine pontiff's latest move towards a more open and inclusive church. http://www.aol.com/article/2015/09/...o-forgive-abortion-during-holy-year/21229956/

Priests have always had the discretion to forgive women who have had abortions. I'm not sure what this has to do with the opening of the basilica door. I think your phrase "open door policy" is strange and doesn't apply. The Catholic church tries to welcome all sinners to come and repent. It is not Christian to make someone feel that their sin is so awful that God would never forgive them. Would you agree that this is a good policy?

visionary · Sep 1, 2015

Open Heart said:
Priests have always had the discretion to forgive women who have had abortions.

Then why the decree?

Open Heart · Sep 1, 2015

pinacled said:
I am glad you got my point. Catholic Dogma and Doctrine practices can be confusing.

I'm extremely worried about you. You just aren't going from point A to point B anymore.

Open Heart · Sep 1, 2015

visionary said:
Then why the decree?

I don't think it was a decree so much as an affirmation. The STATUS QUO in Catholicism is that when a woman has an abortion, it is a mortal sin and she is automatically excommunicated from the Catholic church. However, all she needs to do to have that sin forgiven and to have the excommunication lifted is to go to confession. Indeed, the Catholic Church makes a good deal of assistance available to the woman who has had an abortion, from simple post abortion counseling, to psychiatric therapy, because the Church sees abortion as having more than one victim.

visionary · Sep 1, 2015

So slap them silly with one hand, and welcome them back with the other.

Open Heart · Sep 1, 2015

visionary said:
So slap them silly with one hand, and welcome them back with the other.

They are disfellowshiped when unrepentant, and welcomed back when repentant, just as scripture prescribes. Wouldn't you agree?

Shimshon · Sep 1, 2015

visionary said:
So slap them silly with one hand, and welcome them back with the other.

It's no different in orthodox Judaism. Reject them because of the sin and continually call them to make teshuva. The orthodox remove them from the fold and implore them to return. Why are you focusing on Catholics when every fundamentalist religious sect does the same thing? Even one law Messianics. "if you don't keep the commandments you don't love God"..... Which implies one is not saved, or a member UNTIL you attempt to keep the commandments. Or at least believe it's the function of the Spirit. Aren't we supposed to find our common positives instead of continually focusing on our perceived uncommon negatives? Will this never change here?

Open Heart · Sep 1, 2015

Vis:
I've been thinking. There has always been a problem with a small minority of priests who are extremely judgmental. who prefer to berate those penitants who are gay or who have had abortions rather than to extend God's forgiveness. Quite frankly, they go against Church teaching in this and cause terrible harm in the name of Christ. It could be that it was the Pope's intent to address these and remind them what they need to be doing.

pinacled · Sep 1, 2015

Open Heart said:
I'm extremely worried about you. You just aren't going from point A to point B anymore.

Open Heart said:
They are disfellowshiped when unrepentant, and welcomed back when repentant, just as scripture prescribes. Wouldn't you agree?

This is just me and how I think. If I have offended someone I ask them for forgiveness.

visionary · Sep 1, 2015

visionary said:
An indulgence [?] is a remission [?] before God of the temporal [?] punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven[?], which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed [?] gains under certain defined conditions [?] through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority [?] the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints.

Now isn't that a mouth full of what???

Those things I have [?] and underlined ...need more information please

How is a indulgence a remission?
How is there temporal punishment?
How is guilt already forgiven?
How is a faithful Christian duly disposed?
What are the certain defined conditions?
What authority?

visionary · Sep 1, 2015

Open Heart said:
Vis:
I've been thinking. There has always been a problem with a small minority of priests who are extremely judgmental. who prefer to berate those penitants who are gay or who have had abortions rather than to extend God's forgiveness. Quite frankly, they go against Church teaching in this and cause terrible harm in the name of Christ. It could be that it was the Pope's intent to address these and remind them what they need to be doing.

Does the church jump the gun with the extension of forgiveness when there is no sign of repentance? I can understand the running of the Father to the prodigal son, but the son repented and turned homeward first.

Open Heart · Sep 1, 2015

visionary said:
Does the church jump the gun with the extension of forgiveness when there is no sign of repentance? I can understand the running of the Father to the prodigal son, but the son repented and turned homeward first.

I'm not a priest, so I'm not really an expert on this. But from the very few priests that I've talked to on this, women who have had abortions who return to the church don't just recite some monotone confession. They spend a lot of time with the priest, usually with many tears. I've never heard of any priest offering absolution to ANYONE they aren't seeing in confession. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea of absolution before repentance; maybe you can clarify?

Hoshiyya · Sep 4, 2015

Open Heart said:
Do you know how long that is? I'm not going to read that whole thing, trying to figure out what you have a problem with. Quote the parts that are giving you trouble, and I'll try to help you.

I *SKIMMED* it, meaning I looked it over in about 30 seconds, and I can tell you what it appeared to say in that short time. The doors are literal doors to basilicas that are being opened to pilgrims during a jubilee year to make pilgrimages. These pilgrimages are ways to obtain indulgenges. The opportunity to gain the indulgences via the pilgrimages ends with the jubilee year ends.

I once had an argument with a person who literally told me to "read Genesis". This wasn't just an off-hand remark, no no no, she insisted again and again. I asked her to quote the verse she referred to, but she just told me to read through Genesis and I'd find it. To be fair I could probably HAVE read all of Genesis in the time it took arguing with her. To this day I am not sure what verse she was referring to, but I have a suspicion.

Hoshiyya · Sep 4, 2015

visionary said:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...esco_bolla_20150411_misericordiae-vultus.html

open Holy Door?
close Holy Door?

Yeshua said in Revelation 3:8 that it was HE that opened a door for us,..
Pope says that we are to practice ‘faith over the observance of the law‘. wherever that means??

I have several ideas as to what he is really saying. The "door of mercy" commemorating the commencing of the reaching out to the ("separated brethren") and it will be a small year window of opportunity for everyone to get on board because it will close a year from December. Is this a veiled threat? What power does he have to open and close this door? What does he mean by holy door?

Here's what your article says about "holy door":

I will have the joy of opening the Holy Door on the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. On that day, the Holy Door will become a Door of Mercy through which anyone who enters will experience the love of God who consoles, pardons, and instils hope.

On the following Sunday, the Third Sunday of Advent, the Holy Door of the Cathedral of Rome – that is, the Basilica of Saint John Lateran – will be opened. In the following weeks, the Holy Doors of the other Papal Basilicas will be opened. On the same Sunday, I will announce that in every local church, at the cathedral
– the mother church of the faithful in any particular area – or, alternatively, at the co-cathedral or another church of special significance, a Door of Mercy will be opened for the duration of the Holy Year. At the discretion of the local ordinary, a similar door may be opened at any shrine frequented by large groups of pilgrims, since visits to these holy sites are so often grace-filled moments, as people discover a path to conversion.

The Jubilee year will close with the liturgical Solemnity of Christ the King on 20 November 2016. On that day, as we seal the Holy Door, we shall be filled, above all, with a sense of gratitude and thanksgiving to the Most Holy Trinity

...Life itself is a pilgrimage, and the human being is a viator, a pilgrim travelling along the road, making his way to the desired destination. Similarly, to reach the Holy Door in Rome or in any other place in the world, everyone, each according to his or her ability, will have to make a pilgrimage.

This will be a sign that mercy is also a goal to reach and requires dedication and sacrifice. May pilgrimage be an impetus to conversion: by crossing the threshold of the Holy Door, we will find the strength to embrace God’s mercy and dedicate ourselves to being merciful with others as the Father has been with us.

End of quotes.

The word door occurs in other places in the text, in phrases like "open the door of his heart" etc.

It's really just a literal door. He talks about the eventuality of opening other such doors in other (physical, literal) areas of pilgrimage. It's basically a kind of symbolical object/area of pilgrimage.

visionary · Sep 4, 2015

Open Heart said:
I'm not a priest, so I'm not really an expert on this. But from the very few priests that I've talked to on this, women who have had abortions who return to the church don't just recite some monotone confession. They spend a lot of time with the priest, usually with many tears. I've never heard of any priest offering absolution to ANYONE they aren't seeing in confession. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea of absolution before repentance; maybe you can clarify?

So spill the beans with much tears and for ?? the priest offers absolution. The idea that blackmail is available from confession is not a faith I would want to be involved with.
www.romancatholicism.co.uk/seal.html
The Roman Catholic Church claims that God sanctioned its practice of blackmailing penitents to confess their sins to a priest before the priest forgives their sins.

The more I read the more abuses are revealed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...or-accused-of-confessional-box-blackmail.html

One... I do not believe any man, priest or otherwise can not give absolution...before, during, or after repentance. They have no such power. As far as absolution without repentance... ask the Mafia who forgives their sins. As if they are repentant.

According to Roman Catholicism, a venial sin (meaning "forgivable" sin) is a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God and eternal hell. So all the murder, crimes of the Mafia are considered venial sins, because they know that the RCC will forgive them. It may cost a bit more.
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlik...li5_the_mafiamob_are_so_often_very_religious/

By their fruits you shall know them. It is like comparing Quakers with RCC. You never hear of a Quaker ever committing crimes and still remain highly religious. There is something seriously wrong with a faith that allows all sorts of evil within its ranks, by authority rights they have given each other for dastardly deeds. That is not right.

Hoshiyya · Sep 4, 2015

visionary said:
So spill the beans with much tears and for ?? the priest offers absolution. The idea that blackmail is available from confession is not a faith I would want to be involved with.
www.romancatholicism.co.uk/seal.html
The Roman Catholic Church claims that God sanctioned its practice of blackmailing penitents to confess their sins to a priest before the priest forgives their sins.

The more I read the more abuses are revealed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...or-accused-of-confessional-box-blackmail.html

One... I do not believe any man, priest or otherwise can not give absolution...before, during, or after repentance. They have no such power. As far as absolution without repentance... ask the Mafia who forgives their sins. As if they are repentant. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...were_members_of_the_sicilian_mafia_which_was/

Confession booths are not in the Bible that goes without saying, I thought this was about the meaning of "holy door" ?

visionary · Sep 4, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Confession booths are not in the Bible that goes without saying, I thought this was about the meaning of "holy door" ?

I thought this is where the holy door lead to.

Open Heart · Sep 4, 2015

visionary said:
The idea that blackmail is available from confession is not a faith I would want to be involved with.

Blackmail?????? Oh my. I don't feel that at all. I feel confession is a wonderful, awesome experience. It is one of the things which drew me to the Church. It is so very healing to confess. This is why James admonishes us to confess our sins one to another. Why, even in 12 step programs they have confession to another person!!! Why? Because it heals the soul in a way that just confessing straight to God doesn't.

Vis, for me to discuss this with you any further, I would need to cross the line into arguing for my position, which I can't really do in the MJ forum. If you wish, we can do this in General Theology.

Open Heart · Sep 4, 2015

visionary said:
I thought this is where the holy door lead to.

I've never heard the door to a confessional called a holy door. Sometimes confessions are not heard in confessionals.

Open Heart · Sep 4, 2015

So, how did we get on Catholic stuff again?

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