If David didnt ascend to Heaven when he died (Acts 2:34-35), why do we think we will go when we die?

JohnRabbit

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This is a scripture that many have misunderstood. He is not saying that literally, for David is no doubt with The Lord. What he is saying is David did Not Rise For you, Jesus is the One who did.
Many of the Jews read the old test. prophecies about David sitting on the throne and interpreted it to mean that David would be the one to come and rule over Israel. But it was through Davids line that the prophecy was about which is Christ.

acts 2:29 is as dogmatic as it gets!

if david is with the Lord, then God must be on mushrooms or something, because for some reason He seems to think that He is going to raise David from the grave!

speaking of the "end time" God says:


Jeremiah 30:9(NKJV)
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them. (the last verse of the chapter gives the time frame of this prophecy!)

as in raise up from the dead!

remember paul said:


Romans 4:17(NKJV)
17...God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; (the very definition of resurrection!)

btw, why would God have to give life to the dead?

(also see post above)
 
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Winken

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Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.a]


Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?

Dig a little deeper, SAAN. Try John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3, John 5:24, Romans 10:8-13.
 
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JohnRabbit

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The saints soul never dies.

it's interesting how you have managed to contradict two verses of scripture in one statement!

Ezekiel 18:4(NKJV)
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. (see also rom 3:23, heb 9:27)

Revelation 6:9(NKJV)
9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
 
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Press On

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The thread question is not about the resurrection of the body which you continue to write about. The thread question is about what happens to the soul at death. These are completely different concepts and different scripture addresses them separately. It is unfortunate that the OP has quoted scripture that does not address what happens to the soul at death.



The NKJV translation of Acts 2:29 saying that David is dead as opposed to saying he died does not fit the verbiage of the New Testament. Therefore it is a poor translation there, while other translations say David died. If you would read even the NKJV translation of Acts 13 you would understand what better wording should be written in Acts 2 was written later in Acts 13; that David is not dead, only asleep. Understand that the New Testament when talking about the souls of saints that died, refers to them as sleeping. I have quoted multiple verses saying such, and even you have quoted them. On the several occasions when the New Testament is speaking about the resurrection of the BODY, then it says the body is dead.

Acts 13:6 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. [NKJV]


How do you resurrect the living? Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living.
It should be obvious that Jesus was teaching the Sadducees that did not believe in life after death, that when the body dies, saints are still alive.


You use words from a criminal to negate the clear word of Jesus.

Jesus in his answer acknowledges that he would come into his Kingdom TODAY, the day he died and that the repentant criminal would be there WITH him in Paradise. For all that choose to ignore clear scripture; Paradise is heaven, not hell.

This text is the clearest answer to the thread question, does our soul go to heaven at death?

Yes!

Hello and blessings to all. It's my understanding that the Greek text used to translate Luke 23 had no punctuation; all the letters ran together without separation. Should one translator put the comma BEFORE the word "today" and another translator in a different text place the comma AFTER the word "today", it gives a whole new meaning; specifically supporting many other Scriptures that show Christ obviously did not ascend that day on the cross.

Sorry if this has been brought up before but I just stumbled on this interesting thread & added my 2 cents. I did not do a search. After a lot of Bible searching I tend to feel that no one has yet ascended to the heavenlies save Jesus. I am certainly no scholar but I love threads that share ideas like this. Thanks and goodnight from Texas!
 
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JohnRabbit

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And of course the OP shows that the argument Peter makes only works if one admits that David is not talking about himself - his own soul.

understood, but acts 2:29 is just peter stating a fact!
 
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n2thelight

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Yes, I think Christ is in Heaven, but if Acts shows David didnt ascend to Heaven when he died, my question was why do we think that when we die we will go immediately to Heaven? Im starting to see the verse more as Daivd didnt ascend for them and Jesus did, but the wording of that verse does make you wonder why do we think we go directly to heaven

No one did until Christ defeated death


I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"



I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"


These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.


I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
Not the word "sometime", they were not disobedient all the time like the fallen angels, but were disobedient while living in the flesh body. Do you think that it was the whether that saved those adamic souls? They were saved from the water, and the reason that God saved them is given in Genesis 6:9; "THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."


The key to understanding this verse is in the word "perfect", for in the Hebrew text, it is the word "tamin", which means "without blemish as to breed or pedigree." In Genesis 6:1-7, when men started to multiply on the face of the earth, daughters were born to them. When the sons of God beheld the daughters of men, they desired them. Many "sons of God" or fallen angels left their place of habitation in the heavens and came to earth and multiplied with those daughters of flesh man, and from them came the Nethinim. This is what the book of Jude is all about.


Jude 6"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."


These were the giants of old, and through the years to the time of Noah, all souls on earth were contaminated by cross marriage, to where there was only Noah, His wife, and their family that were pure in pedigree, or their lineage blood line. It was the half breed creatures of giants, that came from the union of the daughters of men, and the fallen angels that left their first estate, that were the ones that the flood of Noah's day was to eliminate. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:37-39 that in the time just before His coming it will be just as it was in Noah's day.


Matthew 24:37"But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Matthew 24:38 "For as the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,"

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until that flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

The fallen angels are coming back to earth, and when they come they will be as we are, for we are created in their image, which is God's image. The time of their return is set, and shall be when Michael kicks them out of heaven where they are now. When they come to earth, their nature will be of peace and prosperity, just like their leader Satan. They will come to deceive you and anyone that will listen to them into believing that their leader Satan is the true Christ. Many, such as those that believe in the "any-moment doctrine", [rapture doctrine] will be taken by them immediately. They will not be able to wait patiently for the True Christ's return. There will be very few that can resist Satan at his coming, just like there were very few to come through the flood of Noah's time.


Genesis 6:7 "And the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them." "

Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

In our day, God's elect will be spared from the flood of lies that Satan casts upon the earth. It was the ark that saved Noah and his family from the waters, and there is also an ark in the end times that shall save God's elect from the flood of lies and deception that Satan shall bring upon the entire earth. That ark is given in Revelation 9:4;"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men [women] which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

The ark of the book of Revelation is "the seal of God in their foreheads" from Revelation 9:4. That "seal" is the Word of God, all of it from the beginning to the end, and that allows those with that Word in their minds to understand exactly what is going on in these final days, so that they shall not be deceived. Remember the flood of the last generation is not of water, but deception. It is all the lies, the supernatural acts that Satan will bring with him to this earth when he plays the role of the "instead of Christ", or Antichrist. You will either know it at the instant of Satan's coming, or you will not, and if you do not know that the first Christ coming to earth is Satan, you will accept Him as the true Christ.


The ark became the type of savior to Noah and His family, for they did not have a savior as we do today, in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had not been born nor died on the cross at the time of Noah. Those people did not have the opportunity to repent and have their sins forgiven as you and I do today. There was a temporary covering for the year, by burning a few pure animals, but it just didn't get the job done.


Every one that died in their flesh bodies, all the way back prior to Adam [Ha-adam], to the six day creation of male and female of Genesis 1:27, had not lived a perfect life by the law, for the law was given to convict of Sin, not to save from sin. All that is except three. Enoch was transfigured and taken by God. Genesis 5:24;"And Enoch walked with god: and he was not; for God took him."

Elijah was also take by God because of His righteousness. II Kings 2:11; "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

Moses went off into the wilderness, and God took the body of Moses, but these are the only men where there is no record of their death in the flesh. However, both Moses and David murdered a man, and that is sin under the law. So can we say that God is fair, if everyone that had died before the cross of Christ would be condemned to hell? This is why Jesus Christ went back to those that had died in their flesh bodies, and their souls were held in prison waiting for the day of judgment, and Jesus preached to each of them. He taught the souls that were held prisoners because of their sins. Even while the flesh of Jesus was still in the tomb, the Spirit of Jesus Christ went directly to paradise, to the wrong side of the gulf in paradise, and taught His children. They are the ones spoken of here in verse twenty, and many of them accepted that opportunity that Jesus Christ gave to them and were part of the resurrection with Christ.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Hello and blessings to all. It's my understanding that the Greek text used to translate Luke 23 had no punctuation; all the letters ran together without separation. Should one translator put the comma BEFORE the word "today" and another translator in a different text place the comma AFTER the word "today", it gives a whole new meaning; specifically supporting many other Scriptures that show Christ obviously did not ascend that day on the cross.

What fool would write such a thing: I say today, ...
What day would something be said except today, the day it was said. It is inane to add today after saying something. It adds nothing.

I sent this text. I am lazy and don't like to put in commas.
"I say today lets do lunch." No comma. Any guess as to what day I wish to do lunch? It should be obvious. It should also be obvious where the missing comma would be if I wasn't so lazy.

Your placement of the comma "I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise" is not supported by any Bible translation that I know of. Don't distort the obvious meaning of scripture because it makes problematic your doctrine belief.

Also recognize a difference between a bodily ascension Christ did 40 days after resurrection and what his Spirit did when he gave it up to the Father.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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it's interesting how you have managed to contradict two verses of scripture in one statement!

Ezekiel 18:4(NKJV)
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. (see also rom 3:23, heb 9:27)
Not at all. Read very closely what I wrote.
AnticipateHisComing said:
The saints soul never dies.
Read more than one verse of Ezekiel 18 to learn the truth. It contrasts the faithful with the unfaithful. If you don't know, the saints in my quote would be the faithful. Ezekiel says this about them.
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!
Says the Lord God.

Understand that Ezekiel 18 is a call to repent with the warning of death to those that don't, but life to those that do.
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!

Revelation 6:9(NKJV)
9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
The Book of Revelation gives the greatest insight to heaven as it currently is. John saw elders, angels, and saints with God before them all. Your quoted verse has John seeing souls in heaven. Scripture then clarifies which souls they are; those that were martyred. This is a great verse to support the doctrine that at death souls go to heaven.

Do you understand that we have both a body and a soul? They are not the same thing and the soul is the more important. Further look at Mat 10 to differentiate death of the body and death of the soul.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
 
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2KnowHim

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Ezekiel 18:4(NKJV)
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

and as shown, He tells us where we go at death, per gen 3:19!

This body will return to the dust, per Gen. that's what that is saying.

The soul who sins shall die.
It was for this very reason that Jesus poured out His Soul unto death, so that we could Live.
Sin is what causes the soul to die, (not physically) as your seeing it, but spiritually.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all (Souls) die, even so in Christ shall all (Souls) be made alive.
Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 
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2KnowHim

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When Jesus Crys out on the Cross,...."My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me".....Do you really think that was Him crying out? .....That was you and me, and every Soul of man crying those words, as He took upon Himself The Sin of the World. God never leaves us, it is sin in the Soul that causes us to cry out "where are you", why hast thou forsaken me".

This is how He could say, If I be lifted up, will draw All men unto me.
And He Did.
 
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JohnRabbit

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Not at all. Read very closely what I wrote.

i did and here's what i found:

I agree you have to be careful. I agree there is a contrast between Christ's death and David's, but understand we are more than flesh.

we are more than flesh? i think Jesus disagrees with you:

John 3:6(NKJV)

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

see? He makes a distinction, unlike you.

and paul reierates:


1 Corinthians 15:44(NKJV)
44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

so i see nowhere in Jesus' and paul's descriptions that agrees with your embellishment.


There is a reason why the New Testament talks of dead saints as sleeping. It is to distinguish between the body and the soul. While the body may be dead, the preeminent soul is alive as Jesus affirmed. :scratch:The saints soul never dies:scratch:. Since the soul/spirit is more important than the body, we do not say they are dead, but still alive.

Do you understand that we have both a body and a soul? They are not the same thing and the soul is the more important. Further look at Mat 10 to differentiate death of the body and death of the soul.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
maybe you need to read my post #20.

soul/spirit? i wonder what the bible says about such.

here are Strong's definitions of soul found in ezk 18 and matt 10, respectively.


H5315
נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]:—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

now we know that man BECAME a living soul, according to gen 2:7. so we can emphatically say that man does not HAVE a soul.

in lev 17:11 we read:


Leviticus 17:11(NKJV)
11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

the interesting thing here is that all the words that i highlighted in blue are translated from the word "nephesh" from the hebrew. so, the soul is simply the physical life of man or an animal.

God is spirit and man is not, (jn 4:24). angels are spirit and man is not, (heb 1:7,14).

there is nothing in man that can live of itself, because man is mortal - subject to death. spirit cannot die.
that is why Jesus gave up glory, because as God, being spirit, He couldn't die, (heb 2:9).


Mark 10:45(NKJV)
45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life (soul/nephesh/psuche) a ransom for many.”

because He poured out His blood for us:

Isaiah 53:12(NKJV)
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul (life/nephesh) unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. (remember the life of all flesh is in the blood - lev 17:11 and ezk 18 says that souls can die)
 
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BobRyan

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In Acts 2 the problem is that Peter applies the Psalms to Christ and not to David -- saying that David's soul did not ascend to heaven and is still in the grave. This is Peter's proof that the Psalms is about Christ and not David, because Christ is risen and ascended to heaven -- and David is not.
 
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JohnRabbit

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Read more than one verse of Ezekiel 18 to learn the truth.

and the truth is that souls can die and are not immortal! :oldthumbsup:

The Book of Revelation gives the greatest insight to heaven as it currently is. John saw elders, angels, and saints with God before them all. Your quoted verse has John seeing souls in heaven. Scripture then clarifies which souls they are; those that were martyred. This is a great verse to support the doctrine that at death souls go to heaven.

i hope you realize that the book of revelation is symbolic and full of allegory! it is a book of prophecy - rev 1:3.

john says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day... " (and it surely wasn't sunday!), but rather a prophetic time, yet future, mentioned in both the old and new testaments.

now i used rev 6:9 to show that your statement of "saints souls never die" was just you making something up. it's an allegorical story mentioned to make a point, NOT to establish that there are saints in heaven right now! :doh:

if you notice verses 10 and 11 of rev 6:


Revelation 6:10-11(NKJV)
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

"rest a little while longer"? meaning they are still dead. why of course because, like you said, these are the saints of old that were martyred for the word, like stephen in acts 7. they were told that they would remain dead until the future martyrdom that takes place during the tribulation (see matt 24:9)!

Do you understand that we have both a body and a soul? They are not the same thing and the soul is the more important. Further look at Mat 10 to differentiate death of the body and death of the soul.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

now since we understand how the bible uses the word "soul" (see post #36), we can understand what Jesus was saying in matt 10:28!

man can kill the body but can't kill the life of a person (meaning that man can only stop the life process temporarily), because God can bring that life back in a resurrection. so Jesus says that we should fear Him that can destroy both body and soul.

God has the power to judge an individual and if necessary condemn him to the lake of fire or the second death where there is no later resurrection, hence destroying the life (soul/nephesh) forever!
 
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JohnRabbit

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In Acts 2 the problem is that Peter applies the Psalms to Christ and not to David -- saying that David's soul did not ascend to heaven and is still in the grave. This is Peter's proof that the Psalms is about Christ and not David, because Christ is risen and ascended to heaven -- and David is not.

absolutely correct!
 
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JohnRabbit

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Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

that's correct, because they will be given eternal life (see jn 3:16, rom 6:23)! (notice the future tense mentioned in the verse you quoted and this event of giving eternal life is yet futue!)

have you read this?


1 Corinthians 15:22-23(NKJV)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23But
each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

you know of anyone that has been given eternal life yet, other than the Christ?

btw, you haven't answered my question, why do God have to give life to the dead?
 
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