Romans 5 and original sin?

jdbear said:

The penalty for sin is death. We die because we commit sin, not because sin is inherited from Adam.

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.

The Bible plainly tells us Gods people developed a false notion that children were responsible for the sin committed by their father:

The word of the Lord came to me again: “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die. Eze.18:1-4

The proverb above is still used by Christians, contrary to Gods own instruction.

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Not contrary if one reads on when the Spirit tells us God does NOT HOLD THE SINS of the fathers against the children or vice versa...was not Adam our father as well? His sin (according to God here and elsewhere) is not held against us...all sin...death is the consequence of sin not the penalty...when God told Adam and Eve the day they eat thereof they will die, He was warning them because He loved them...like when your parents said "Thou shalt not run out into the busy street, for in the day you do you shall surely get hit by a car"...they were not saying if you did they would make a car hit you (as a penalty) they said do not do it because they foreknew the consequence...

Assyrian said:

Death spread through the human race not like a contagion passed from one person to the other, but in discrete steps as each person sins and dies.

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This is a year & a half old thread but I just read the whole thing with interest.

The question I have is that if a minute-old baby, who has never sinned, dies; how could he die - since his death can only be the result of his own personal sin?

jdbear said:

The way Paul worded Ro.5 should be interpreted on what the Bible says Gods reason for judgement and condemnation is, which is always, only and ever for personal sin.

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If a new born baby hasn't committed a personal sin how can he possibly die? And yet we know they do die.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Notice it is singular not "sins" as many.....sin is not the things we do....it is a Nature we Bare, because of Adam.
But The One that is Hid inside is the One who will eventually set us free...at the appointed time...

Why did God love Jacob and hate Esua? ...it is the nature that God hates not the man....it is the Enemy of God...it is not subject to the Law of God neither indeed can it be....but must be put to death....the firstborn must die "the Adamic/carnal Nature". This is what Jesus did for us....He put Death, which is the carnal mind/nature, to Death...

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity/enemy against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1Co_15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (the carnal mind/Nature).

I believe that the point of Romans 5 isn't to state we are all guilty because of Adam so much as to emphasize that death enters the world as a consequence or punishment upon humanity due to sin. I think this fits with the Eastern Orthodox view of sin as more of a corruption or disease.

Yes, it would indeed be unmerciful of God to hold us all guilty for one mans sin. And there are interpretations of God's punishmet of humanity with death, as itself a kind of mercy, since we cannot be under bondage to Satan forever (unlike the fallen angels, who do not die). In a world without final redemption, death might be seen as merciful and restraining human wickedness.

jdbear said:

Is Paul teaching that all of mankind is born with original sin because of our first parent? Personally, I don't believe so.

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Adam had the same life
in him as God who gave
life, later he follow the
one who also had the
Life in him before he
Rebel and now has
Death in him, so Adam
later has the same
Spiritual state as the
Fallen one, they are
Both the same,
Dead to God, separated
spiritualy. The Devil
God the only pair,
And their offsprings,
Adam gave to his
Children what he had,
Adams son Abel died
Without sin, but with
Death in him, as Adam
was so was he. God
Mourn for Abel, the
man who left his body
Was the first man to
Go where all mankind
Will go, to Hades, that's
The inheritance for
Men when they
Died phycically, while
He lived he still had
The fellowship with
God, cause sin had
Not separated him
From God, the way
SIN separated Cain
From the presence of
God. Whether with sin
Or not sin every one
Had death in him.
There was only one
Place for mankind, the
Devil took every one.even
The children of God
Later on . Beginning
With Abraham, and
Later with Moses, still
Had death, even
Thought they had
Forgiveness of sins,
They did not have the
Life, the Law could
Not remove the
Separation and give
them life. Jesus not only
Give forgiveness of
Sins, he gives life also
and not the same life
Adam had, this time
Is life eternal, that can
Not be lost, cause of
Disobedience or SIN,
And also open the way
For the new inheritance
For his children the
Heavenly one. We have
Peace with God, Jesus
Is our peace.

Sin is not something you do, it is a nature......and the nature is the source, and this nature was passed down to All mankind through Adam. That's why it is necessary that we be born again, although not all will be granted repentance in this age.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob and Esau represent two different Natures.

2KnowHim said:

Sin is not something you do, it is a nature......and the nature is the source, and this nature was passed down to All mankind through Adam. That's why it is necessary that we be born again, although not all will be granted repentance in this age.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob and Esau represent two different Natures.

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Hi, I see that you are
a mature person and
You love the good.
I would like to look
Into some things
Together. Let's start
with the children of
Adam. Cain he is
Deferent than Abel,
he sinned. (Both
they are not born again)
before he sin he had the
Fellowship of God, after
As a result (regardless
Of repentance or not)
He went out of the
Presence of God. He
Experience, the end
Of his fellowship with
God. (some kind of
Death). As offspring of
Adam he was born with
The fallen spiritual state
of been, identifieing not
With the spirit that God
Has, and gave it to Adam,
But with the spirit of the
Fallen one. Now
Adam and Eva are
The children of the fallen
One spiritualy.He only
Had to get
The first pair, so he can
Have all humanity.
(This is before Christ.)
Abel, sinless (with the
Fallen inheritance of
Adam, the first to
Experience phycical death,
Died while in fellowship
With God. Who
Harvest his soul?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This Breath ( Hebrew. neshamah) that God breathed into Adam, was not the same as The Spirit/Life of God which is Holy.
The Breath of Life Adam possessed was his spirit, no different than the life of the Animals.
This breath goes back to God who gave it, and the body returns to the dust. Without the Breath there is no Soul.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2KnowHim said:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This Breath ( Hebrew. neshamah) that God breathed into Adam, was not the same as The Spirit/Life of God which is Holy.
The Breath of Life Adam possessed was his spirit, no different than the life of the Animals.
This breath goes back to God who gave it, and the body returns to the dust. Without the Breath there is no Soul.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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I find the things you
Telling me at the time
of the creation of man,
the part that Adam
Was just another
Mammal, wich is truth,
In the phycical, only.
Very strange, but the
One he is just similar
In everything to animals
Very strange, which I
am not going to
Cross- examine it,
unless there is an
Appellate court here
On earth to bring the
Matter up for review.
The other avenue
that's available to us
cause we live in the
post Jesus Glorification
Period to look to other
sources of guidance
Rather than the source
you relied, which source
Is from an individual,
Which individual we
Can not axcess and
ask whether or not
His opinion has change
Regarding this matter,
During the course of
His later life, or ask if
His Father had the same
Understanding in this
matter. and why he
Opt to take that stand
or we have isolate a
a few words he said
and make something
out of it, that he never
Meant to have it apllyed
In that perspective. and
ask him not only him,
But an array of other
Godly figures (if we may
call him also a prophet,
of the Most High God.
Not just to put him
In a debate forum
with his Father, but also
with the Rabbies of the
Jweis faith, not only of
the past but even to
Presence.

When Adam was in the garden he was in the image of God, the Holy Spirit was a part of him. Upon the fall the Holy Spirit was removed from man. Genesis 5 that Adam made a son in his image which is no longer the image of God. But in an image without the Holy Spirit. From that point on man was born of a sin nature...that being without God. It is what Christ replaces when we are saved.

Christ was and Is The image of God, Adam was formed from the dust of the ground, God's image is from above.
Do you think that Christ ever had the possibility of falling as Adam did? No.
We as Adam were made subject to vanity, not willingly.....
Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Against our will. Christ on the other hand did it Willingly as a Lamb led to the slaughter.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Adam's fall in the Garden was NOT a mistake by God, he was always meant to be formed from beneath, born from above.
When God declares ....He created man in His own image and likeness, He is calling those things that be not as though they are.....Isa. 46:10 Declaring the END from the beginning......Through the work of His Son Jesus The Christ, He is foretelling what The End is, from the beginning.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Forgive me but I really did not understand where you were going with your post, if it was directed as a response to mine.

The Bible tells us that man was made in the image of God.
Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; ..."
Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him...

This is not only speaking literally but also spiritually. Jesus (the man) was with God before the creation (John 1:1-2), we are physically in His image as well, in that we have 2 legs, 2 arms, etc. But we also were created to be in God's presence. God walked with Adam in the garden. This could only be done with the Holy Spirit. And we also were "human" in that we had a mind, free will, intellect. A triune nature similar to God, thus again in his likeness.

But when Adam chose not to obey God and determine for himself what was good and evil, the Holy Spirit was removed, thus causing spiritual death. And through that action death entered the whole world, all life now experiences a physical death, and the whole world groans waiting for the return of Christ to put an end to death.

brotherjerry said:

Forgive me but I really did not understand where you were going with your post, if it was directed as a response to mine.

The Bible tells us that man was made in the image of God.
Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; ..."
Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him...

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Yes, this was a response to you. Adam was never made in the image of God, in the Garden.
You misunderstand what you're reading. When these two scriptures are quoted, God is speaking forth what "shall be
" The End of All mankind, NOT his beginning with Adam in The Garden,... but The End of what "shall be" in His Son Jesus Christ The Last Adam.

Gen. 1 is a foretelling of The Finished Work of Jesus Christ, The Light, and what that Light has accomplished from the time it is spoken of in Gen.1:3 to 1:27.

brotherjerry said:

But when Adam chose not to obey God and determine for himself what was good and evil, the Holy Spirit was removed, thus causing spiritual death. And through that action death entered the whole world, all life now experiences a physical death, and the whole world groans waiting for the return of Christ to put an end to death.

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Return of Christ?? The whole world waits for the manifestation of The Sons of God.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Do you really believe that "Physical Death" is what is meant by "in the day you eat you shall surely die"?
Physical death is what man interprets that to mean, but to God it is something entirely different.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
This is the death that Adam brought into the world, physical death is only a by-product of the death that God spoke of to Adam.

Man suffered both when Adam fell. Not only becoming immediately spiritually dead but also would now suffer a physical death.

I believe for the most part we agree on all of this.

jdbear said:

Is Paul teaching that all of mankind is born with original sin because of our first parent? Personally, I don't believe so.

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I believe so. Because the first Adam is the representative or federal head of mankind.