The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

Standing Up said:

Who's the "they"? The dead?

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The pray to the dead saints (i.e. the dead).

Albion said:

That's true. Was that your point before?

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My point before was that there are similarities between the RCC, Orthodoxy Churches, and Anglicanism and that many of it's practices cannot be found in the Bible.


That's a misconception. But there are SOME similarities, and a "non-denominational" Christian might think that there's a stronger similarity than there is.

Well, that's flatly wrong. This may be a good example of how people think they see similarities and yet they're just mistaken.

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The Eucharist, wearing religious garments, and praying to the dead is done by all three groups. I am sure there are other things, too. But these are the big ones.

GratiaCorpusChristi said:

Maybe so, but they wouldn't have recognized it as wine, and certainly not the best sort of wine." They would have been all "What is this sickly sweet nonsense masquerading as wine?!"

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The church I grew up in said it had to be grape juice for 2 reasons:

1) that even smelling alcohol was sinful and the Lord would not be a party to making others sin.

2) it had to be grape juice since he said the best was saved for last and EVERYONE knows that grape juice in much better than that nasty ole alchy wine.

Jason0047 said:

But some do, though.

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A minority...and not in the same way as Roman Catholics do. And the church itself does not take the position that these folks do.

The point is that there similarities.

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Of course there "are similarities." There are "similarities" between all Christian denominations. If one points to them and never admits to the differences, it would be possible to say that any two Christian denominations taken strictly at random are "like each other."

Albion said:

But whether or not you are correct about it being found in the New Testament, MOST Christian churches observe this sacrament, so there's no particular connection between Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism in that. No more than between Anglicanism and Methodist, Presbyterianism, or, for that matter, the non-denominational Churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ. In fact, just about EVERY Christian denomination partakes of the holy meal except for the Quakers and Salvation Army.

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The reason one is a Christian is because they are a follower of Jesus Christ according to His Word. Jesus never praised church traditions or the commandments of men. In fact, the commandments of men were condemned. Also, nowhere does Scripture talk about other teachings that should be accepted outside of God's Word.

Also, I am not talking about the Lord's supper (As it appears in the Word of God). I am talking about the unbiblical religious ceremony known as the Eucharist, which is put forth by the RCC and those churches that are similar to it.

DaveW-Ohev said:

The church I grew up in said it had to be grape juice for 2 reasons:

1) that even smelling alcohol was sinful and the Lord would not be a party to making others sin.

2) it had to be grape juice since he said the best was saved for last and EVERYONE knows that grape juice in much better than that nasty ole alchy wine.

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I agree.

Albion said:

A minority...and not in the same way as Roman Catholics do. And the church itself does not take the position that these folks do.


Of course there "are similarities." There are "similarities" between all Christian denominations. If one points to them and never admits to the differences, it would be possible to say that any two Christian denominations taken strictly at random are "like each other."

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I am talking about church tradition that is outside of Scripture (of which I find to be unbiblical). For Jesus said we will be judged not by rejecting church tradition but we will be judged if we reject Him and His words (See John 12:48).

DaveW-Ohev said:

The church I grew up in said it had to be grape juice for 2 reasons:

1) that even smelling alcohol was sinful and the Lord would not be a party to making others sin.

2) it had to be grape juice since he said the best was saved for last and EVERYONE knows that grape juice in much better than that nasty ole alchy wine.

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I agree. What would you rather have with a meal every time you go out to a restaurante or even a fast food place? Wine? or Grape juice?

Jason0047 said:

The reason one is a Christian is because they are a follower of Jesus Christ according to His Word. Jesus never praised church traditions or the commandments of men. In fact, the commandments of men were condemned. Also, nowhere does Scripture talk about other teachings that should be accepted outside of God's Word.

Also, I am not talking about the Lord's supper (As it appears in the Word of God). I am talking about the unbiblical religious ceremony known as the Eucharist, which is put forth by the RCC and those churches that are similar to it.

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What about the Eucharist? What is it that you dislike or disavow? You've named churches that differ widely on what their view of the liturgy and Holy Communion are all about, so fill us in on what you're talking about.

Jason0047 said:

But some do, though. The point is that there similarities.

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I can find people who are exceptions to every possible rule in every denomination. Does that mean that their denominations also believe and practice these things? Concerning Anglicanism, you will probably find more variety there than in most denominations, so it is probably best to address each Anglican as an individual Christian rather than stereotyping him in a mold that may not be accurate.

Hi,

Nobody, except God, lives without error. To only look at what supports your position, is normally a marketing technique, a sales technique, and never an objective technique used to find What God really wants us to do, about a subject.

In the Genesis 1:28 world, of doing science, thus obeying God's Blessing to us, of subdue the earth, there is a definition of expert, and Ph.D's get tenure by becoming one of the five experts in the world on a single subject. That way, the university and people from around the world consult any of these five experts, to find out how things really are, versus what they may be thinking.

The shortest definition of expert is this: "An expert is someone who knows all there is to know about a subject, and, he/she knows which of it is wrong."

The point is they do not restrict themselves to things that only agree with what they think, they submit themselves to all the information that is available.

To find out which is right and which is wrong they test.

Romans 14.

That is in the Bible also. When was the Bible parsed up, with one group accepting on one part and rejecting others.

You have your views on wine, and on the Wedding feast at Cana, yet when Romans 14 calls wine good, this you will not talk about.

You also when Prohibition was shown to not work by the Government, and was later repealed, those laws of God, spoken of by God, in Romans 13:1-5, that you will not comment on.

Is your position, personal? Do you hate wine much for some reason? Has that caused you to not look at all the scriptures about wine?

You have even countered the Blessing of God in Genesis 1:28, to subdue the earth, by not listening or believing that grape juice was not preservable till rather recently in the last 2000 years or so.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

bbbbbbb said:

I can find people who are exceptions to every possible rule in every denomination. Does that mean that their denominations also believe and practice these things? Concerning Anglicanism, you will probably find more variety there than in most denominations, so it is probably best to address each Anglican as an individual Christian rather than stereotyping him in a mold that may not be accurate.

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But not only that...Jason compared churches, and when it was pointed out that he was incorrect, he switched to saying some individual members believe this or that.

As you note, that kind of defense could probably be used on every church as needed. It would not be difficult to find some people in every denomination or a few congregations that are at odds with the teachings of the church itself. It's a foolproof argument, in other words, because it doesn't say anything.

Albion said:

But not only that...Jason compared churches, and when it was pointed out that he was incorrect, he switched to saying some individual members believe this or that.

As you note, that kind of defense could probably be used on every church as needed. It would not be difficult to find some people in every denomination or a few congregations that are at odds with the teachings of the church itself. It's a foolproof argument, in other words, because it doesn't say anything.

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Hi,
Noted, and thanks.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Albion said:

What about the Eucharist? What is it that you dislike or disavow? You've named churches that differ widely on what their view of the liturgy and Holy Communion are all about, so fill us in on what you're talking about.

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I cannot fully express my thoughts on it, otherwise I will be banned. But I do not believe any of the saints ever did such a thing (Meaning, it is not Biblical). We do not see it anywhere done in God's Word.

Albion said:

But not only that...Jason compared churches, and when it was pointed out that he was incorrect, he switched to saying some individual members believe this or that.

As you note, that kind of defense could probably be used on every church as needed. It would not be difficult to find some people in every denomination or a few congregations that are at odds with the teachings of the church itself. It's a foolproof argument, in other words, because it doesn't say anything.

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The striking similarities is there for those who want to see them. If you do not want to see them, then that is your choice.

Jason0047 said:

I cannot fully express my thoughts on it, otherwise I will be banned. But I do not believe any of the saints ever did such a thing (Meaning, it is not Biblical). We do not see it anywhere done in God's Word.

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You won't be banned for saying you don't agree with the meaning of any sacrament.

You did say you weren't talking about the Lord's Supper (That's the term used in the Anglican Prayerbook used during worship) but that you were against the Eucharist, which means "a thanksgiving." And you compared three churches. But if you have nothing against the Eucharist that you can identify....????

Jason0047 said:

The striking similarities is there for those who want to see them.

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I want to see them. So far you've named several and been wrong about them. Well, not 100%. All three churches you compared--and many others--do have members wearing religious garments during worship.

Hi,
It seems like the whole wine versus grape juice my hinge on not the Bible, but some people's wishes.
Consider the following comment, not from me:
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The Protestant practice of traditionally substituting grape juice for wine during communion must largely be credited to one man - Thomas Bramwell Welch

From Wikipedia:

While some Christians consider the use of wine from the grape as essential for the validity of the sacrament, many Protestants also allow (or require) pasteurized grape juice as a substitute. Wine was used in Eucharistic rites by all Protestant groups until an alternative arose in the late 19th century. Methodist dentist and prohibitionist Thomas Bramwell Welch applied new pasteurization techniques to stop the natural fermentation process of grape juice. Some Christians who were part of the growing temperance movement pressed for a switch from wine to grape juice, and the substitution spread quickly over much of the United States, as well as to other countries to a lesser degree. There remains an ongoing debate between some American Protestant denominations as to whether wine can and should be used for the Eucharist or allowed as an ordinary beverage, with Catholics and some mainline Protestants allowing wine drinking in moderation, and some conservative Protestant groups opposing consumption of alcohol altogether. (emphasis added)

Anyone with basic knowledge of wine making knows that once grape juice is successfully squeezed and collected, it doesn't remain as juice for very long. Unpasteurized grape juice, if not consumed within a few days of harvest, will quickly ferment, rendering it not consumable (unless treated and stored to begin the wine making process).

As the excerpt from Wikipedia above states, prior to the turn of the 20th century "grape juice communion" was practically non-existent. Before the modern discovery of the pasteurization process, it would have taken a significant amount of effort to have enough freshly squeezed juice for a congregation readily available every Sunday (or less frequently depending on the denomination).



So, contrary to the traditional presuppositions held by Temperance Movement grandchildren, the theological "roots" of sipping grape juice instead of wine during communion has more to do with pasteurization and prohibition than it does biblical exegesis.

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LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

AFAICT The doctrine of absolute abstinence from alcohol is on one verse:

Ephesians 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit.

Yes, there are other verses that say being drunk is a bad thing; but this is the only one that is a command and the only one in the NT. And it says nothing about a single glass of wine or smelling alcohol.

Do I think drunkenness is sinful? Yes.
Do I think accidentally smelling alcohol = the sin of drunkenness? No. Nor does gargling with Listerine or Scope; or baking with vanilla extract. (untold number of sermons on these items)

Hi,

So according to the above opinion, above the last posting,,,,, Jason is not Biblically sound at all, he is rather instead "Temperance Movement Sound"

And Thomas Bramwell Welch is a strong figure in that movement, as he gave the movement the ability to push their 'movement' on the rest of the world, by finding a way for the first time in history, (again not misinterpreting the history of wine), to prevent the normal and quick process of grape juice, SPOILAGE, that had not been used before.

Grape juice spoilage, was prevented in ancient times, by removing air exposure over time. That was done by putting the grape juice in barrels and allowing gas to escape, rather than putting it in open barrels or bowls.
Wine skins may also have prevented the outside air from having constant contact with the grape juice as it fermented.

Grape juice left out, in open air, Thanks to Jason's work in opposing this I know this all now, ferments fast, but spoils soon also. Only closing off the normally occuring air, and in a way similar to Pasteur's proof, but without the heating before hand, keeps the grape juice from turning into something unconsumable, and possibly for health reasons rather than, taste reasons.

But, that last part I don't know yet.

I love the fact that not only grapes but raisins and all fruit have naturally occuring yeasts on their skins, so doing what is done with wine, works with all fruit juices, but it works a little. Sugar content, and things like acidity levels determine the stopping point of fermentation, thus the alcohol content, and thus the preservation length of the juices.

I love the fact that there are at least 100 different forms of yeast. I love the fact that researchers are combing science far and wild, to try and find a yeast that ends the fermentation process quicker, thus lowering the alcohol content as is the desire of people today.

I love the fact that the selection of yeasts, some from hops, some from potatoes, some from grapes, might indeed give a different taste to the final wine.

In bread once, and I later lost it, I had a sourdough bread starter, which was palatable and delicious beyond my wildests expectaions. One day, not really knowing how to preserve yeast in a liquid flour state, it spoiled. Never yet, have I been able to find a starter that smelled so wonderful, in the starter stage.

Bacteria is also on grapes and sometimes that causes the wine to taste horrible, but whether or not it makes one sick, I have not found yet.
I know all of this, because of Jason's objections. I looked at the facts, and presented them. I then had to look at more facts and present them. If he had been correct, I would have presented those facts, but no facts Biblical or scientific supported his position. The only fact, if I can call it that as it is a defined item, that supports Jason's position almost perfectly is 'The Temperance Movement.' I can't really find any deviations from Jason's position and that movement.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .