Historicist Only Protestant Historicism

BABerean2

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What is your view of the 1,000 from Rev. 20? Are you Pre, Post or Amil?
All of us have to make the choice of making some unit of time not "literal".

We have "hour" and "all" in John chapter 5, where Jesus seems to indicate a simultaneous resurrection of both the Godly and the ungodly.

We have the same simultaneous resurrection from Job, Daniel, Paul, and John.

We have Jesus discussing the resurrection at the "last day" in John chapter 6.

We can redefine all of these and get a 1,000 year reign of Christ after His Second Coming, where sin and death continue.

or we can understand that John saw the "souls" of those who died in-Christ living and reigning with Christ in heaven for a very long (1,000) time before the return of Christ. This is a reference to the length of time that the souls reign, but it does not discuss how long Christ reigns. His reign is given as forever in Rev. chapter 11.
The 1,000 year reign of Christ is an assumption.

I have always been bothered by the idea of mortals living to a very old age, but still dying after the return of Christ.
Would Christ perform their funeral service?
Where would their souls go, since Christ is here?
If the Christians are ruling over these mortals during the 1,000 years we must do a terrible job if they rebel against Christ.
Does Christ just let Satan out of the pit and allow him to foment a rebellion, all while Christ is in control of the planet?

These questions have caused me to reject the premill position.

I also do not see things getting better, so therefore I have also discarded the postmill view.

Amill means, No Millennium, which is an unfortunate term.

In my humble opinion the 1,000 years is a symbol that represents the whole "Church Age".

I know a lot of good people who hold the classic premill position.
Some of them are nonDispensational Baptists, like Pastor Sam Adams from Florida.

.


 
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JM

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All of us have to make the choice of making some unit of time not "literal".

We have "hour" and "all" in John chapter 5, where Jesus seems to indicate a simultaneous resurrection of both the Godly and the ungodly.

We have the same simultaneous resurrection from Job, Daniel, Paul, and John.

We have Jesus discussing the resurrection at the "last day" in John chapter 6.

We can redefine all of these and get a 1,000 year reign of Christ after His Second Coming, where sin and death continue.

or we can understand that John saw the "souls" of those who died in-Christ living and reigning with Christ in heaven for a very long (1,000) time before the return of Christ. This is a reference to the length of time that the souls reign, but it does not discuss how long Christ reigns. His reign is given as forever in Rev. chapter 11.
The 1,000 year reign of Christ is an assumption.

I have always been bothered by the idea of mortals living to a very old age, but still dying after the return of Christ.
Would Christ perform their funeral service?
Where would their souls go, since Christ is here?
If the Christians are ruling over these mortals during the 1,000 years we must do a terrible job if they rebel against Christ.
Does Christ just let Satan out of the pit and allow him to foment a rebellion, all while Christ is in control of the planet?

These questions have caused me to reject the premill position.

I also do not see things getting better, so therefore I have also discarded the postmill view.

Amill means, No Millennium, which is an unfortunate term.

In my humble opinion the 1,000 years is a symbol that represents the whole "Church Age".

I know a lot of good people who hold the classic premill position.
Some of them are nonDispensational Baptists, like Pastor Sam Adams from Florida.

.



Makes sense. You may enjoy this site: MoellerHaus

The author is Amil.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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interpreter

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From Wiki: The day-year principle, year-day principle or year-for-a-day principle is a method of interpretation of Bible prophecy in which the word day in prophecy is symbolic for a year of actual time. It is used principally by the historicist school of prophetic interpretation.[end quote]


Here’s something interesting…the Emperor Phocas made a decree claiming the Pope of Rome was the universal Bishop of the church in 606.

John Gill notes; “if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reigns will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable.”

Gill might have it correct. Napoleon gave the death blow to political Rome but Rome took some time to fade away. The Pope lost secular authority in 1866.

Wikipedia: “After defeating the papal army on 18 September 1860 at the Battle of Castelfidardo, and on 30 September at Ancona, Victor Emmanuel took all the Papal territories except Latium with Rome. In 1866 he granted Pius IX the Law of Guarantees (13 May 1871) which gave the Pope the use of the Vatican but denied him sovereignty over this territory, nevertheless granting him the right to send and receive ambassadors and a budget of 3.25 million liras annually. Pius IX officially rejected this offer (encyclical Ubi nos, 15 May 1871), retaining his claim to all the conquered territory.” Interesting. Gill seems to have used the book of Revelation to actually predict the last battle Papal Rome would have resulting in it’s loss of political power.

jm
Yes, in Bible prophecy, one day often turns out to be one year. For example, the 7th head of the beast (Muslims) trampled Jerusalem underfoot for 1260 years, not 1260 days.
 
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JM

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Yes, in Bible prophecy, one day often turns out to be one year. For example, the 7th head of the beast (Muslims) trampled Jerusalem underfoot for 1260 years, not 1260 days.

interpreter, did you notice the Wiki site mentions only the cults as holding to this view? I've tried to change it a few times but someone alters it back everytime. It gives the impression that this key principle is unorthodox when clearly it was the main theory of all Protestants until the advent of Dispensationalism and Preterism.

jm
 
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JM

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Quote from the link above:

As the choppy waters of September 2015 move ashore, all eyes will be on Pope Francis’ visit to the United States, jittery stock markets and signs in the heavens.


Francis is expected to enthusiastically endorse a new U.N. document that promises to wipe out poverty by 2030 by reordering the world economy along the lines of socialist principles. The document, titled “Transforming Our World: 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development,” also seeks to “strengthen universal peace” and usher in a new era of shared prosperity.

The pope’s visit marks just one in a series of historic and potentially prophetic events during the month of September.

  • The climax of the biblical Sabbath year known as the Shemitah occurs on Sept. 13, along with a partial solar eclipse.
  • The largest-ever military exercise, Jade Helm, concludes Sept. 15, while the world’s most ambitious scientific experiment is taking place all month at the CERN Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, Switzerland.
  • Congress is supposed to vote on Obama’s Iran nuclear deal by by Sept. 17.
  • The 266th pope arrives on Sept. 23, the 266th day of the year, which also happens to be Yom Kippur or the Jewish Day of Atonement, and the beginning of the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha, also known as “the Feast of the Sacrifice.”
  • Francis will be the first pope to address a joint session of Congress Sept. 24.
  • Francis delivers the keynote speech Sept. 25 to the U.N. sustainability summit in New York.
  • On Sept. 28, the fourth and last of the “blood moons” takes place on the biblical Feast of Tabernacles.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/mega-agenda-21-resurrected-with-popes-help/#IiZbPcQFI3tFQDVP.99
 
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JM

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Premillenial Interpretations do Violence to the Prophecy

The following diagram illustrates the way that some interpreters force the scripture into their interpretation instead of diagramming the scripture and fitting the interpretation to the scripture. Such a forced interpretation as that illustrated below could not be done by our Omniscient God, He would not create a freak to represent what is real. Imagine a god who said that "History will look like a statue" and then to match the interpretation you have to draw toes as long as the rest of the statue. Such a statue has to lie on his side because he can not stand on such deformed feet. Since premillenial scholars know that the division of the Roman Empire into 10 kingdoms took place about 500 years after the advent of Jesus of Nazareth and they err in not believing "the little stone" has hit the image in the feet as yet, then they are forced to draw toes that are 1500 years long. The diagram is not actually proportionate however since an honest picture of the toes make them 1 and 1/3 times longer that the complete standing image. The rest of the statue is proportionate to the time periods that each symbolic portion predicted. Surely God did not predict history represented by a freak statue. source
 
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BABerean2

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Premillenial Interpretations do Violence to the Prophecy

The following diagram illustrates the way that some interpreters force the scripture into their interpretation instead of diagramming the scripture and fitting the interpretation to the scripture. Such a forced interpretation as that illustrated below could not be done by our Omniscient God, He would not create a freak to represent what is real. Imagine a god who said that "History will look like a statue" and then to match the interpretation you have to draw toes as long as the rest of the statue. Such a statue has to lie on his side because he can not stand on such deformed feet. Since premillenial scholars know that the division of the Roman Empire into 10 kingdoms took place about 500 years after the advent of Jesus of Nazareth and they err in not believing "the little stone" has hit the image in the feet as yet, then they are forced to draw toes that are 1500 years long. The diagram is not actually proportionate however since an honest picture of the toes make them 1 and 1/3 times longer that the complete standing image. The rest of the statue is proportionate to the time periods that each symbolic portion predicted. Surely God did not predict history represented by a freak statue. source
:oldthumbsup:

Good article in the "source".
 
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interpreter

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interpreter, did you notice the Wiki site mentions only the cults as holding to this view? I've tried to change it a few times but someone alters it back everytime. It gives the impression that this key principle is unorthodox when clearly it was the main theory of all Protestants until the advent of Dispensationalism and Preterism.

jm
It was the main theory of all Protestants until the advent of Futurism. Some of us are both a historicist and a dispensationalist. I believe that the Day of the Lord is the third millenium AD which began in 2001. That happens to be when the Battle of Ar Mageddon began, also called "The Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty." It began on 9/11 when, it also happens, the Euphrates was dry. Presently, the US, the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus, is dropping 100-pound "hailstones" on the latest face of the 7th head of Satan. Soon Satan will be so soundly defeated that he wont be heard from again for a thousand years. I am also called a preterist because I say the second coming was in 312 AD, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse. So please be careful with your labels
 
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interpreter

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(Confessional Historicism seems to have fallen out of favour, although, I have found a few of us over on the Puritan Board. I’m hoping to discuss Historicism with other Reformed, Protestant NON-SDA Christians.)

Historicism defined,

"that view which regards the prophecy [of Revelation] as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the church, and the world connected with it, from St. John’s time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfilment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon" (Horae Apocalpticae, Vol. 4, p. 564).​

E. B. Elliott writes, in Horae Apocalpticae, that Historicism was the major view of the church centuries,

Victorinus (1st century), Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus (3rd century), Origen, Methodius, Lactantius, Eusebius (4th century), Athanasius, Hilary, Jerome, Chrysostom, Augustine, Tichonius, Bede (8th century), Ambrose, Haymo, Andreas, Anselm (12th century), Joachim Abbas (12th century), Jean Pierre d’Olive, Martin Luther (16th century), Bullinger, Bale, John Foxe, Brightman (17th century), Pareus, Franisco Ribera, Alcasar, Mede, Jurieu, Dr. Cressener, Bossuet, Vitringa (18th century), Daubuz, Sir Isaac Newton (18th century), Lacunza, and Gulloway (19th century).​


Some audio for further study:

W. J. Mencarow – A series of sermons that began in 2006 and number 117! Detailed with plenty of facts, tidbits, etc.
Ian Paisley – Nothing to really add. He is an old time firebrand preacher, take it or leave it.
Robert Caringola – Author of “The Present Reign of Jesus Christ” and “Seventy Weeks: The Historical Alternative.”


Dispensationalism teaches that key portions of scripture like Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation take place at some at sometime in the future. Preterism teaches that much of prophecy took place before the end of the first century.

H. Grattan Guinness explains the origin of Futurism;

The third or FUTURIST view, is that which teaches that the prophetic visions of Revelation, from chapters iv to xix, prefigure events still wholly future and not to take place, till just at the close of this dispensation. . . .

In its present form however it may be said to have originated at the end of the sixteenth century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who, moved like Alcazar, to relieve the Papacy from the terrible stigma cast upon it by the Protestant interpretation, tried to do so, by referring those prophecies to the distant future, instead of like Alcazar to the distant past. For a considerable period this view was confined to Romanists, and was refuted by several masterly Protestant works. But of late years, since the commencement of this century, it has sprung up afresh, and sprung up strange to say among Protestants. It was revived by such writers as the two Maitlands, Burgh, Tyso, Dr. Dodd, the leaders of the “Brethren” generally, and by some Puseyite expositors also . . . ” from The Approaching End of the Age
E. B. Elliot explains the origin of Preterism;

“IT was stated at the conclusion of my Sketch of the History of Apocalyptic Interpretation, that there are at present too, and but two, grand general counter-Schemes to what may be called the historic Protestant view of the Apocalypse: that view which regards the prophecy as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the Church, and world connected with it, from St. Johns time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of the Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfillment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon. The first of these two counter-Schemes is the Præterists, which would have the prophecy stop altogether short of the Popedom, explaining it of the catastrophes, one or both, of the Jewish Nation and Pagan Rome; and of which there are two sufficiently distinct varieties: the second the Futurists; which in its original form would have it all shoot over the head of the Popedom into times yet future; and refer simply to the events that are immediately to precede, or to accompany, Christs second Advent; or, in its various modified forms, have them for its chief subject. I shall in this second Part of my Appendix proceed successively to examine these two, or rather four, anti-Protestant counter-Schemes; and show, if I mistake not, the palpable untenableness alike of one and all. Which done,1 It may perhaps be well, from respect to his venerated name, to add an examination of the late Dr. Arnolds general prophetic counter-theory. This, together with a notice of certain recent counter-views on the Millennium, will complete our review of counter-prophetic Schemes.


Now with regard to the Præterist Scheme, on the review of which we are first to enter, it may be remembered that I stated it to have had its origin with the Jesuit Alcasar:2 and that it was subsequently, and after Grotius and Hammonds prior adoption of it, adopted and improved by Bossuet, the great Papal champion, under one form and modification;3 then afterwards, under another modification, by Hernnschneider, Eichhorn, and others of the German critical and generally infidel school of the last half-century;4 followed in our own æra by Heinrichs, and by Moses Stuart of the United States of America.5 The two modifications appear to have arisen mainly out of the differences of date assigned to the Apocalypse; whether about the end of Neros reign or Domitians6 I shall, I think, pretty well exhaust whatever can be thought to call for examination in the system, by considering separately, first the Neronic, or favorite German form and modification of the Præterist Scheme, as propounded by Eichhorn, Hug, Heinrichs, and Moses Stuart; secondly Bossuets Domitianic form, the one most generally approved, I believe, by Roman Catholics.” Horae Apocalypticae or Hours with the Apocalypse

Yours in the Lord,

jm
I'm glad you mentioned the Puritans. Some editions of the Geneva Bible that they carried to America said, in a note on the first horseman, that the 1st horseman was Constantine (as I also have concluded). That was a basic tenet of the historic view of the day, and needs to be revived.
 
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owly

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JM,

I'll check out that amil site you mentioned.

I thought that Historicism would have some agreement with the amil position?

I suppose that K. Riddlebarger has had quite an influence on me over the last few years, in adopting the amil position, after my earlier pentecostal/dispy roots.

Anyway, I understand the saints 1000 yrs in Rev. to simply mean that even though they died, their death and subsequent reign, is in fact a never-ending/unshakable glorious victory,
ie 1000 simply being used as an expression of that event.
 
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JM

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If I'm not mistaken the Idealist Amil of Riddlebarger was popular in the Dutch Reformed churches but not the rest of Protestantism...I could be wrong. The Dutch school seems to limit their idealism to Revelation meaning, the hermeneutic in which they read the last book of the Bible differs from how they read the rest of the Bible. If you look at the Geneva Bible or the Dutch commentators up to the 1800's they tended to view passages like Dan. 9 and 2 Thess. 2 like any good Historicist.
 
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interpreter

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JM,

I'll check out that amil site you mentioned.

I thought that Historicism would have some agreement with the amil position?

I suppose that K. Riddlebarger has had quite an influence on me over the last few years, in adopting the amil position, after my earlier pentecostal/dispy roots.

Anyway, I understand the saints 1000 yrs in Rev. to simply mean that even though they died, their death and subsequent reign, is in fact a never-ending/unshakable glorious victory,
ie 1000 simply being used as an expression of that event.
I believe the 1000 years is literal and fast approaching. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues including the Battle of Ar Mageddon which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry. Currently, the US (the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus) is dropping 100-pound "hailstones" on the latest face of the 7th head of Satan. The final battle between good and evil results in Satan being so soundly defeated (by a US-led coalition?) that he wont be heard from again for a thousand years -- allowing the Church to reign over the earth in peace for 1000 years.
 
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interpreter

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A literal period of time or a literal 1000 years? Could it be 999 or 1001 years?

Just asking.
If the past is any indication, the 1000 year figure is both literal and exact. For example, the great tribulation of WW II lasted exactly 42 months -- when you figure it from December 1941 (when the US entered the conflict and it became a world war) to May 1945 (when Hitler the antichrist was killed).
 
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