real tongues / fake tongues ..can we really make that judgment call

Biblicist · Aug 30, 2015

brinny said:
If one does not speak in tongues, is that indicative that the Holy Spirit is not indwelling in this person?

Thank you kindly.

Up until maybe the last 20 years (within the context of Australia, Canada, UK & USA), the predominant view within Pentecostal theology (other than Oneness), has been that Christ initially baptises us into the Holy Spirit where at some later time, maybe seconds, hours, weeks or years later we are then Baptised into the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Our first experience with the Spirit at the moment of our conversion-initiation has often been referred to as being 'sealed' in the Spirit. This so-called 'first stage' is then followed up by a subsequent experience called the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

In more recent years the traditional Pentecostal understanding of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit being one of subsequence has lost favour within Pentecostal academic circles where hopefully the AoG will drop this traditional Pentecostal doctrine in a decade or so.

The non-classic Pentecostal (which is me) recognises that all Christians share the same experience of having fully received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit at the moment of our conversion which is known as the soteriological view. The non-classic Pentecostal will still (or should) acknowledge that the Biblical evidence tells us that the normative experience for those in the early church was to repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which is the same experience that we should be expecting to see today.

brinny · Aug 30, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Up until maybe the last 20 years (within the context of Australia, Canada, UK & USA), the predominant view within Pentecostal theology (other than Oneness), has been that Christ initially baptises us into the Holy Spirit where at some later time, maybe seconds, hours, weeks or years later we are then Baptised into the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Our first experience with the Spirit at the moment of our conversion-initiation has often been referred to as being 'sealed' in the Spirit. This so-called 'first stage' is then followed up by a subsequent experience called the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

In more recent years the traditional Pentecostal understanding of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit being one of subsequence has lost favour within Pentecostal academic circles where hopefully the AoG will drop this traditional Pentecostal doctrine in a decade or so.

The non-classic Pentecostal (which is me) recognises that all Christians share the same experience of having fully received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit at the moment of our conversion which is known as the soteriological view. The non-classic Pentecostal will still (or should) acknowledge that the Biblical evidence tells us that the normative experience for those in the early church was to repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which is the same experience that we should be expecting to see today.

If one does not speak in tongues, does that mean that they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

Thank you kindly.

Biblicist · Aug 30, 2015

brinny said:
If one does not speak in tongues, does that mean that they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

Thank you kindly.

A simple answer for both the classic Pentecostal (i.e., AoG) and the non-classic Pentecostal would be that all those who have repented and confessed Christ as their Lord and Saviour that they indeed have the Holy Spirit; but the classic-Pentecostal (AoG) would say that anyone who does not speak in tongues has not been Baptised in the Holy Spirit, they see a difference between being 'sealed' and fully Baptised in the Spirit.

The traditionalist Pentecostal (AoG) would refine their answer by saying that for those who do not speak in tongues, that the Holy Spirit has them, whereas those who speak in tongues are baptised in the Holy Spirit. For most this type of distinction is a bit of a tongue twister which is why it is often referred to as first being 'sealed' in the Spirit which is a term that Pentecostal commentators within the AoG don't particularly like.

So, if you've confessed Jesus as your Lord and Saviour this means that from a non-classic Pentecostal position that you are Baptised in the Holy Spirit. But . . . and there is always the 'but', we would say that as the Scriptures indicate that everyone can pray in the Spirit (tongues), that this is something that all Christians should seek to experience.

From where I stand, for those Pentecostal churches (both classic and non-classic) who do not teach their new initiates that they can expect to speak in tongues from day one or at least soon after, then they should remove any signs from their church that indicates that they are Pentecostal.

Edit: Expanded paragraph 1, "but the classic-Pentecostal..."

Alithis · Aug 30, 2015

brinny said:
real tongues / fake tongues ..can we really make that judgment call

My Bishop said yes, it is possible. He said that many, if not most, "fake" the speaking in tongues. It appears that many times, the speaking in tongues is a "performance" of sorts. Yet in his church, it was firmly believed that if one did not speak in tongues, that they were not "saved", because a "sign" of being saved is the "speaking in tongues".

There would be an entire congregation of "speaking in tongues" at his prompting, all at the same time. It was bedlam, and ultra confusion and chaos reigned. It was a sight to see and hear.

What always came to mind for me during especially this demonstration of chaos is that God is not the Author of confusion. He's the antithesis to it.

First question..who is mr bishop?
Next q.. in what manner was it confusing and to whom.

Next q... how does one arrive at the onclusion its fake just because many are speaking at one time? While that can be confusing for an onlooker it is zero proof that it is fake.go stand in an airport and youll hear many tongues spoken and understand none of it..and be confused as to whats being said...yet every tongue is valid.

brinny · Aug 30, 2015

Alithis said:
First question..who is mr bishop?
Next q.. in what manner was it confusing and to whom.

Next q... how does one arrive at the onclusion its fake just because many are speaking at one time? While that can be confusing for an onlooker it is zero proof that it is fake.go stand in an airport and youll hear many tongues spoken and understand none of it..and be confused as to whats being said...yet every tongue is valid.

I said "my Bishop".

Please read my post again.

Thank you kindly.

Alithis · Aug 31, 2015

brinny said:
I said "my Bishop".

Please read my post again.

Thank you kindly.

re read it .. ok

so ..First question..who is "your" bishop?

Next q.. in what manner was it confusing and to whom.

Next q... how does one arrive at the conclusion its fake just because many are speaking at one time?
While that can be confusing for an onlooker it is zero proof that it is fake.
go stand in an airport and you'll hear many tongues spoken and understand none of it..and be confused as to whats being said...yet every tongue is valid.

brinny · Aug 31, 2015

Alithis said:
re read it .. ok

so ..First question..who is "your" bishop?

Next q.. in what manner was it confusing and to whom.

Next q... how does one arrive at the conclusion its fake just because many are speaking at one time?
While that can be confusing for an onlooker it is zero proof that it is fake.
go stand in an airport and you'll hear many tongues spoken and understand none of it..and be confused as to whats being said...yet every tongue is valid.

He "was" my Bishop.

He (God) is a God of "clarity" (crystal-clear-ness) and peace. He leads us beside "still" waters", and He calms the raging, storming, sea. God is not the Author of confusion (chaos). He is the antithesis of it. Speaking of "airports" and all the ensuing chaos, etc., Jesus Himself withdrew from it, going off by Himself with His Father. Chaos and confusion are never ever of God.

tulipbee · Aug 31, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
May I suggest that you go over to the wof forum and ask them your question. One of the problems that I have is that the wof movement here in Australia seems to be very small so some of our wof members on their forum might be better able to answer your question, particularly if you live in the USA.

I think they're a mean bunch and I'll get kicked out, reported and banned . it's hard for find truths anymore

Biblicist · Aug 31, 2015

tulipbee said:
I think they're a mean bunch and I'll get kicked out, reported and banned . it's hard for find truths anymore

Maybe if you were to ask for some examples of wof denominations then you should find this to be okay. Unfortunately, even though I know of individual wof celebrities, as we do not have any wof denominations here in Australia, I'm not really of much help when it comes to the North American scene. For that matter, I can probably only name three wof congregations that reside here in Australia.

Alithis · Aug 31, 2015

brinny said:
He "was" my Bishop.

He (God) is a God of "clarity" (crystal-clear-ness) and peace. He leads us beside "still" waters", and He calms the raging, storming, sea. God is not the Author of confusion (chaos). He is the antithesis of it. Speaking of "airports" and all the ensuing chaos, etc., Jesus Himself withdrew from it, going off by Himself with His Father. Chaos and confusion are never ever of God.

your missing the question .. (and addressing a differing topic ,albeit i have been in many a prayer meeting where many are speaking in tongues and due tom the understanding and unity there has been no such confusion. Just as there was no such confusion among the believers on the day of pentecost -only Joy .)
but the question is ..how can he ,or anyone, reach the conclusion that the tongues are fake based solely on the fact that many were speaking tongues at the same time .. ? he simply cannot . it is a carnal based judgment to say so.

brinny · Aug 31, 2015

Alithis said:
your missing the question .. (and addressing a differing topic ,albeit i have been in many a prayer meeting where many are speaking in tongues and due tom the understanding and unity there has been no such confusion. Just as there was no such confusion among the believers on the day of pentecost -only Joy .)
but the question is ..how can he ,or anyone, reach the conclusion that the tongues are fake based solely on the fact that many were speaking tongues at the same time .. ? he simply cannot . it is a carnal based judgment to say so.

He knew members were faking it....they were putting on a show for appearances sake....and they admitted it...he said that they needed to repent...

he called them out on it....

Alithis · Aug 31, 2015

tulipbee said:
I think they're a mean bunch and I'll get kicked out, reported and banned . it's hard for find truths anymore

if you ask a question with motive being to "learn the answer to the question" and do not use the answer as material to begin a debate then you will not violate the rules and will not be kicked out . they are not at all mean lol .. they are a great bunch of folks .

Alithis · Aug 31, 2015

brinny said:
He knew members were faking it....they were putting on a show for appearances sake....and they admitted it...he said that they needed to repent...

he called them out on it....

thank you . that clarifies it a bit .
this just means that those people were making noise with their mouth to appear as though they were speaking in tongues .. it still does not mean the tongues themselves that other were speaking were false ..
lets define the difference between "pretense " and speaking in tongues. one is pretending to do something but not actually doing it .. the other is actually doing . we cannot judge the many by the actions of the few can we ?

but it raises a very interesting Question ... how many speak in what they have been taught is tongues ..a learned intellectual set of sounds ?

-have to go .. ..to be continued

Biblicist · Aug 31, 2015

brinny said:
He knew members were faking it....they were putting on a show for appearances sake....and they admitted it...he said that they needed to repent...

he called them out on it....

In all honesty, I seriously doubt that the story that was passed down to you by this bishop would have been true. The likelyhood of this type of event (as you've described it) actually happening anyware seems to be highly improbable.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 31, 2015

Personally I have no issue with anyone who may be trying to speak in tongues. They are trying to do God's will. It would be a very rare thing to have someone speak in tongues is such a way as to damage the church.

But when it moves into prophecy, then I think there needs to be discernment.

brinny · Aug 31, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
In all honesty, I seriously doubt that the story that was passed down to you by this bishop would have been true. The likelyhood of this type of event (as you've described it) actually happening anyware seems to be highly improbable.

in this case i was there and witnessed it myself.

Biblicist · Sep 1, 2015

brinny said:
in this case i was there and witnessed it myself.

Just so we're on the same page, you were maybe saying that the vast majority of those who were in the meeting that you attended that they were apparently trying to imitate speaking in tongues?

brinny · Sep 1, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Just so we're on the same page, you were maybe saying that the vast majority of those who were in the meeting that you attended that they were apparently trying to imitate speaking in tongues?

No, i didn't say the vast majority. The Bishop was saying, in essence, to "cut it out" and those who were faking it needed to stop. He also addressed someone who had been spasming in laughter, rolling around on the floor during a prayer meeting.

Alithis · Sep 8, 2015

brinny said:
No, i didn't say the vast majority. The Bishop was saying, in essence, to "cut it out" and those who were faking it needed to stop. He also addressed someone who had been spasming in laughter, rolling around on the floor during a prayer meeting.

its fine to address someone rolling around the floor in laughter .. that also does not mean it was not of god that they were doing so but simply that they are not taken beyond the limits of self control and can get up and take a seat so that they do not disturb the preaching and reading of the word of God .

I know ,for i have been under such an anointing that i laughed very much and felt weak over my entire body and so in love with the lord Jesus as to seem drunken in body . but i also knew to be quiet when it was inappropriate to continue, if continuing became disruptive to the preaching of the word .. for what is more important .. ? me enjoying the anointing of Joy ..OR the preaching of the word .. the preaching of the word OF COURSE ,because the laughter ,while being both intercessory and healing ..(to myself) .. was not of any edification the the hears ..

aah you see..because laughter ,in the Spirit ,is in itself a tongue , a language ,a communication, an intercession .. but if it is not interpreted to the hearers that they may benefit from it, then it is better to trust God and calm down that the word may be preached uninhibited .

but there is a worse Error then laughing to much or praying in tongues to much in a public meeting to the point one is disruptive. - and that is to chat to the seat next to you in disregard of the word of God being read .or gossip about one another's opinions during the preaching of the word ..or hold the preaching of the word in such disdain that one does not discipline ones thoughts to LISTEN to the preaching ... these things are irreverent disrespectful and sin .. deal with these first and the one laughing under the anointing of the holy Ghost .. teach them later .

its a log in the eye vs a speck in the eye scenario

MissRowy · Sep 14, 2015

The Holy Spirit does things to us that sometimes we are unaware of. I have been to a prayer meeting where I felt the Spirit in the room we were praying in and it was amazing.
The speaking of tongues thing didnt come to me until late last year. Thats how it goes. You don't decide when you are going to start speaking in tongues, the Holy Spirit decides for you.

real tongues / fake tongues ..can we really make that judgment call

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