How to Get Government Control of Churches Stopped
- Thread starter Franciscus12
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1 Peter 3:16
Isn't it fascinating how this topic brings this out in those who call themselves Christian?
What a perfect avenue for God to work and show the scriptures yet again wherein Jesus said, his sheep know his name and he knows them.
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TheBarrd
Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs
TerranceL, please do not be offended...but you are an atheist.
I doubt very much if you'd have much appreciation for the problem you are presenting.
First of all, none of us is "following the teachings" perfectly...if we could do that, we would not need a Savior, would we? Or maybe you don't understand that, either.
Second, some may be further along in their walk with the Lord, while others may have temporarily wandered from the path.
Then there are those who honestly think that they are following the Lord, but who have not actually surrendered themselves to Him. Jesus says that He does not know them.
And finally, there are still others who, according to the Lord, are like weeds among the wheat, or wolves in sheep's clothing. They know perfectly well that they are not even trying to follow Jesus...they are the ones who are stealing from God's people.
It all comes down to what is within the person's "heart" (for lack of a better word).
I'm not qualified to sit here and tell you who is or who is not a Christian, nor is anyone else. I honestly do not know.
But I'm quite sure that Jesus does...
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1 Peter 3:16
Do you remember the Colorado baker news story? They faced up to a year in jail for invoking their Christian faith as cause in refusing to bake a wedding cake.
7 Examples of discrimination against Christians in America
Since Obama has been commander in chief the military has become more aggressive in their anti-Christian stance. #5 in that list of seven article talks about Senior Master Sgt. Phillip Monk facing court martial.
The Park Service now requires churches to get permits to perform Baptisms on park land. I wonder what would happen in the case of that non-compliance? Jail? Fine?
#7 is a real head turner. Considering the cost of going to college now days and what it apparently pays for in professors salary in that case.
And while maybe not in your lifetime one has but to recall the old adage, those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it, when they read:
When America Put Pastors in Prison
The Baptist Battle for Religious Liberty
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Todd Starnes never shows his ignorance quite so clearly as when he purports to report anti-Christianity in the military. He's simply ignorant, and willfully so, whenever he opens his mouth about the military.
He was wrong in this as his is always, always wrong. And to witness:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...religious-discrimination-claim-245896611.html
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1 Peter 3:16
If he was lying he wouldn't have received the honor he did after all this came to light. What helped is he was represented by attorneys from Liberty.
What's tragic is that he had to suffer in this "culture of fear" as he mentions in that video. When not that long ago there was an official military policy, Don't Ask Don't Tell. Installed under Clinton, if I remember right. And before that it was just a given. Surprise inspections on base housing to catch offenders against the policy that didn't allow not only the tell part, but the activity part. (keeping within the rules here)
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This would be false, as the Air Force Investigation found that Monk made false official statements, at least according to the Air Force Times. Additionally, 37th Training Wing Commander stated about the investigation, "The weight of the evidence shows that religion was never discussed between the two. In the end, this is a case about command authority, good order and discipline, and civil rights — not religious freedoms." And having formerly served in the Air Force, I can tell the Liberty Institute does not understand the military -- Sgt. Monk was not transferred 6 weeks early.
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It seems most of those 7 examples aren't actual discrimination. Number 1 is merely that you can't get money (or in this case food) from the government and use it to promote your religion -- as this church was doing with there food program. I can imagine the uproar if this were a Muslim group getting food from the government and using it to promote Islam.
Number 2 is pure conjecture -- the idea that just because they were audited means they were targeted because they were Christian. If this were true, where are the stories of all the other Christian groups being audited that year? The fact of the matter, there are about two religious organizations audited in any year (it varies between a handful some years to none in other years). I've seen nothing suggesting there were any more in 2010 than any other year.
What they don't tell you with Number 3 is that the two men weren't just reading silently, or quietly to each other, they were reading to the people waiting in line at the DMV. Basically, these two men saw the long line at the DMV and thought it would be a great chance to proselytize. They had been asked to leave by a security guard, and refused; only later when the California Highway Patrol arrived did the arrest occur. Again, I submit that had this been Muslims reading the Qu'ran to the line at the DMV, Christians would be up in arms that they were let off.
We have entire threads here talking about Number 4 -- but it is interesting to note that Christians are using similar arguments now as when Civil Rights laws were first passed, when they tried to claim serving Blacks was against their religion.
Number 5 we have talked about here.
Number 6, I find it hard to understand why Christians should have special rights. Every one else that wishes to use the park for an event needs a permit, why shouldn't Christian groups have to follow the same policies?
Number 7, from what I recall of the incident, was an actual standard educational activity that was either mishandled by the teacher or destroyed by a belligerent student, depending on whose version you believe. The idea behind the activity is that you want students to refuse to "stomp on Jesus" -- it is to start a conversation on the power of symbols. The student claimed he was being punished because he refused to stomp, which comes off as a falsehood, since that is the point of the exercise (though the teacher could have been overly intimidating or otherwise messed up the activity). The teacher claims the student disrupted the class and prevented having the discussion. My guess is that the truth is in the middle, the teacher went to far and the student then became belligerent, which disrupted the class and prevented the teacher from continuing with the lesson. Regardless, this wasn't an anti-Christian activity nor was it discrimination against Christians.
All of these have more to do with Christians not being catered to and required to follow the law, rather than any type of Christian discrimination.
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TheBarrd
Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs
LOL....I should have seen that coming.
Let's see...you are an atheist, and I need to remember that. You are probably pretty familiar with the Bible...a great many atheists are.
Do you remember this scene:
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I realize that there is very little point in trying to talk to you about what it means to love God with all of one's heart, and soul, and mind.
For the purposes of this discussion, it is enough to say that the first and most important rule would be to put God first, before anything else.
You have in your signature something that is, or ought to be, very important to a Christian who is struggling to follow Jesus along His famous narrow path...and that is truth. A Christian should be someone you can trust.
I think, though, that you can understand what it might mean to love other people.
Kindness, and patience would be a couple of hallmarks of a Christian who is truly trying to follow Jesus.
I know this answer is highly simplified, and that reality is a lot more complicated than that....but I do think it's a pretty good starting place.
Again, I'm truly interested in learning what atheists think about this...especially those who say that they have read the Bible.
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TheBarrd
Teller of tales, writer of poems, singer of songs
I can't imagine that tossing a Bible in with the food, or even having a picture of Jesus in your facility is the same thing as "promoting your religion". Isn't the main thing getting the food to hungry people?
If it were a Muslim group, I would expect them to be handing out copies of the Quran and that they'd at least have a picture of Mohammed. It wouldn't worry me overmuch...the main thing is still feeding hungry people.
I doubt many people would read the Quran, though...I asked for and received my own copy...that thing is HUGE...and quite complicated...much more than the Bible, which most of the people who got one at this food bank probably won't read, either.
I wonder...
Does our government really think that grown men and women waiting in line at the DMV are not perfectly capable of telling someone who is annoying them to buzz off?
If it were two guys reading the Quran, they probably would have put the audience to sleep...
Do we really need to be "protected" from a couple of guys with a Bible?
No wonder we are in such a shambles as a nation...
We have entire threads here talking about Number 4 -- but it is interesting to note that Christians are using similar arguments now as when Civil Rights laws were first passed, when they tried to claim serving Blacks was against their religion.
Number 5 we have talked about here.
Number 6, I find it hard to understand why Christians should have special rights. Every one else that wishes to use the park for an event needs a permit, why shouldn't Christian groups have to follow the same policies?
Number 7, from what I recall of the incident, was an actual standard educational activity that was either mishandled by the teacher or destroyed by a belligerent student, depending on whose version you believe. The idea behind the activity is that you want students to refuse to "stomp on Jesus" -- it is to start a conversation on the power of symbols. The student claimed he was being punished because he refused to stomp, which comes off as a falsehood, since that is the point of the exercise (though the teacher could have been overly intimidating or otherwise messed up the activity). The teacher claims the student disrupted the class and prevented having the discussion. My guess is that the truth is in the middle, the teacher went to far and the student then became belligerent, which disrupted the class and prevented the teacher from continuing with the lesson. Regardless, this wasn't an anti-Christian activity nor was it discrimination against Christians.
All of these have more to do with Christians not being catered to and required to follow the law, rather than any type of Christian discrimination.[/QUOTE]
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Excuse me? Read the OP again. He doesn't specify which nation he's talking about. I'd like it clarified, so we can tell what control he's talking about, specifically.
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And North Korea has at least 6,000 Christians (that many are known to be in prisons) and perhaps as many as 50,000.
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bhsmte
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You know, it never surprises me, how you talk down to people, in regards to knowledge of Christianity.
I was a christian for most of my life and have studied the NT extensively and likely more so than most Christians.
You asked for an opinion from atheists and I asked a simple question to give you a response; what do you consider to be the main tenets of Christian theology, that Christians should follow?
Don't answer with; to follow God, because that tells me nothing, I need some detail, to give you an answer based on what you consider, to be Christian tenets.
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ViaCrucis
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I think it's fair to acknowledge that in any religious grouping there are levels of devotion. An example might be someone who, raised a Muslim, may still identify as a Muslim but might be found having no trouble drinking or eating bacon. I think it would be fair to say that such a person would not be following/observing their religion since they still identified as Muslim.
To that end it would be fair to say that there are irreligious religious people.
So as a way of picking at nits I don't know it would be entirely accurate to say, in absolute terms, that all religious people observe their religion, or at the very least they certainly don't observe their religion all to the same degree.
-CryptoLutheran
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