Why is Western Europe atheist?

smaneck said:

Redistributing wealth, on the other hand, is biblical.

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Is that why Jesus preached the creation of a welfare state for Israel? Blessed are the welfare bureaucrats, for they shall be rewarded in Heaven. I seemed to have missed that sermon. If anything, Jesus is a poster child for private (libertarian-style) charity, but even that is saying too much.

All that is Biblical is that Christians shouldn't be tax evaders or tax resistors. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, but not specifically for any particular political purpose, such as bread (and/or circuses) for the masses. Basically the message was: don't fight over money, it's not important to your salvation, and God will provide what you need. Christianity wasn't a political platform or an economic doctrine. Any messages here are ethical and theological.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Private charity had approximately 9,800 years of recorded history to make this world a better place - and the results were DISASTROUS. Even today, countries like the USA, which demonize the welfare state, have child mortality rates and starving poor people that are in no way to be expected in such a prosperous nation, and would be more at home in dirt-poor developing countries.
Conversely, the welfare state has managed to turn the fractured classist societies of the early industrialization era into stable, prosperous communities, where workers aren't forced to live in miserable hovels, have access to medical aid, education, food, clean water and so forth.

No one profits from growing slums and hopelessness, not even those who are happy to withhold their money from the "undeserving poor" and try to hide from the rabble in gated communities.

Jane_the_Bane said:

Private charity had approximately 9,800 years of recorded history to make this world a better place - and the results were DISASTROUS.

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Tell that to Jesus.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Perhaps they just got tired after centuries of religious wars pitting neighbors and families against each other and two very destructive wars last century with million dead and displaced people.

Eudaimonist said:

Is that why Jesus preached the creation of a welfare state for Israel? Blessed are the welfare bureaucrats, for they shall be rewarded in Heaven. I seemed to have missed that sermon. If anything, Jesus is a poster child for private (libertarian-style) charity, but even that is saying too much.

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It's sometimes really hard, but when something is referred to as Biblical people might have to turn back past the Gospels to find it. The Tanakh is something like three times larger than the New Testament.

One of the very big things that the Torah tells the Jews is that they never truly owned the land or anything. It was, essentially, borrowed from G-d. People were commanded, not suggested but commanded, to give 10 percent of what they had to the Temple to support the Levites and priests. Farmers were commanded to leave part of their fields uncut so that the poor and hungry could eat. That was without regard to their ability to work or if they were making a decision not to. People weren't given a choice to charity, they were commanded to it.

LoAmmi said:

One of the very big things that the Torah tells the Jews is that they never truly owned the land or anything. It was, essentially, borrowed from G-d. People were commanded, not suggested but commanded, to give 10 percent of what they had to the Temple to support the Levites and priests. Farmers were commanded to leave part of their fields uncut so that the poor and hungry could eat. That was without regard to their ability to work or if they were making a decision not to. People weren't given a choice to charity, they were commanded to it.

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That is interesting. Thanks.


eudaimonia,

Mark

It wasn't WWII .. it was WWI. A war whose horrors are difficult to appreciate for Americans. The collapse of the liberalism inspired by Hegel and the Higher Critical method that many state churches were wed to weakened their position, especially because much of this liberalism had sought to undermine the religious certainties of the past.

Cearbhall said:

I would hope that a college course would stick to things for which there is evidence.

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Hasn't happened yet!

FireDragon76 said:

It wasn't WWII .. it was WWI. A war whose horrors are difficult to appreciate for Americans. The collapse of the liberalism inspired by Hegel and the Higher Critical method that many state churches were wed to weakened their position, especially because much of this liberalism had sought to undermine the religious certainties of the past.

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Waaaait, wait, wait: you are HONESTLY trying to attribute WW1 to LIBERALISM, of all things?
Perhaps in an economic sense (with unbridled "free markets" rupturing social cohesion and worker slums growing more discontent by the day), but even that does not strike me as a very solid hypothesis.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june/wwi-philip-jenkins-great-and-holy-war-review.html

Western Europé, that,s a laugh,
United Nations more like it.

Have a great day everyone, I,m off on a trip around the World.

I,m taking the bus to the next town.

Not that there is anything wrong with that

,Can be entertaining but can also make the head spin.

Jane_the_Bane said:

Waaaait, wait, wait: you are HONESTLY trying to attribute WW1 to LIBERALISM, of all things?
Perhaps in an economic sense (with unbridled "free markets" rupturing social cohesion and worker slums growing more discontent by the day), but even that does not strike me as a very solid hypothesis.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june/wwi-philip-jenkins-great-and-holy-war-review.html

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Modernism and liberalism were factors in WWI, indirectly, tied to the nationalism that inspired it.

Aryeh Jay said:

Perhaps they just got tired after centuries of religious wars pitting neighbors and families against each other and two very destructive wars last century with million dead and displaced people.

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Sometimes the simple explanations are best. When I ask my European friends why they in particular are not religious I get a flurry of reasons usually topped off with "besides, we do not want to bring that strife back to Europe ever again".

Nationalism is inextricably tied to the political right, whereas liberalism is more at home on the left side of the spectrum (except as far as the economy is concerned).

Ideologically speaking, WW1 was the last hurrah of pre-industrial monarchies ordained "by god's grace", marching into war with weapons anointed by priests, bearing the inscription "God with us" on their belt buckles. Unfortunately, nationalism didn't die with them, but flared up even stronger in the war's wake.

ContraMundum said:

Hasn't happened yet!

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Sorry for your unfortunate experience.

Cearbhall said:

Sorry for your unfortunate experience.

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Hey- I've been in humanities studies in universities that specialize in opinion being raised to the level of dogma. You know it exists.

ContraMundum said:

Hey- I've been in humanities studies in universities that specialize in opinion being raised to the level of dogma. You know it exists.

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I'm a humanities student (and teacher), and pretty much the opposite has been the case: the Grand Narratives are called into question instead of being treated as gospel.

Jane_the_Bane said:

I'm a humanities student (and teacher), and pretty much the opposite has been the case: the Grand Narratives are called into question instead of being treated as gospel.

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...good thing too. Are we building new grand narratives in their place? I think so.

ContraMundum said:

Hey- I've been in humanities studies in universities that specialize in opinion being raised to the level of dogma. You know it exists.

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I didn't say that it doesn't exist. I haven't explored every university in the world. I just said that I'm sorry if you experienced this.