Why doesn't the Church operate on a Shift Pattern?

RDKirk

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I've recently started a new job in a nearby city some 30 miles away. I work Out of Hours each week on a rota basis - four days on, four days off - and so my life is running upside down to Church life. A considerable percentage of the working population in my county in the UK works shift pattern. The number of people who work Monday to Friday 9 am to 5 pm is in the minority.

So why does the Church continue to operate on a regular office hours basis? Surely, in proper Outreach, there should be a main meeting on Sunday and during the week. People working shifts should be able to attend a small group on whatever evening is convenient according to the shift pattern. Why isn't Church open 365 24/7?

Many Catholic churches are, or at least a priest will usually make himself available if necessary.

But I think you're being disingenuous. If you work in a 24/7 facility, then you know the resources required and you know there must be a demonstrated need. It would not be wise stewardship of resources for a congregation to maintain a staff--even a lay staff ready for services 24/7 unless the need was already shown.
 
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oi_antz

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Communion isn't so much about you and God as it is about you and other members of the Body of Christ and God.
I do not believe it this way, if you are actually talking about the Eucharist ritual prescribed by Jesus Christ.
God does not need communion, we do.
Exactly why I have said that there is no good to confine one's faith to an unnecessary belief. If one does this, as the OP is describing, they will need to sometimes forego the communion with Him due to unworkable restrictions of temporal church operations. For example, if I had not woken early enough today, I would have missed the service. It has happened before. That stress too can manifest as sin. Yet, if someone's faith is restricted by such a belief, then they will not feel worthy to partake of the restorative procedure that Jesus has instituted as it suits them, and if this is what they need to do, then the belief is actually causing them to stumble. It is therefore in sum, a potentially harmful belief.
In the Church of England, it took years to ordain women vicars because the cards were stacked by the patriarchal attitudes against women. Even pastors are sometimes constrained by the leadership and simple obvious changes take decades to implement because of a few power-mad elders.
You know what they say about the corruptive power of power itself. We who are independent Christians should be grateful to have been spared from that responsibility. Seriously! Proverbs 30:8 has relevant wisdom.

Edit: plus, to do it in church, you are always rushed. Whereas to remember Him in the comfort of your home, that is real communion.
 
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Truly1999

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Communion isn't so much about you and God as it is about you and other members of the Body of Christ and God. God does not need communion, we do.
As a body of disciples, don't we break bread in remembrance of Jesus?
 
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Truly1999

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Many Catholic churches are, or at least a priest will usually make himself available if necessary.

But I think you're being disingenuous. If you work in a 24/7 facility, then you know the resources required and you know there must be a demonstrated need. It would not be wise stewardship of resources for a congregation to maintain a staff--even a lay staff ready for services 24/7 unless the need was already shown.
I do not suggest that every member of the Church be enrolled in a 365 24/7 operation, since many are already committed to other duties, eg parents, carers, etc. But the Church can meet the real need out there by more effectively pooling its resources - I can only speak for the Protestant Church, which I should have mentioned at the start. It is perhaps only the Protestant Church which often - but not always - falls short.
 
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NJA

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I've recently started a new job in a nearby city some 30 miles away. I work Out of Hours each week on a rota basis

There are people in the church I'm a member of who turned down the offer of worke because it made them miss meetings regularly. To them it was against their faith of "putting God first" so they could get to the weekend and evening events... sure enough the manager allowed them to have different shifts (because they were valued in the Company), or they got another job, nearer with suitable hours ... God can do that sort of thing!

"whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it" (John 14:13-14)

"ask, and you shall receive, that your joy may be full" (John 16:24)


You can still "outreach" to the shift workers by meeting them on their days off ... God will bring his "lost sheep" top those who do his bidding.
Some of these non-Christians who came to a midweek evening meeting and saw such value in giving and receiving of God that they sought and found suitable employment [/QUOTE]
 
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Albion

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Many Catholic churches are, or at least a priest will usually make himself available if necessary.

But I think you're being disingenuous. If you work in a 24/7 facility, then you know the resources required and you know there must be a demonstrated need. It would not be wise stewardship of resources for a congregation to maintain a staff--even a lay staff ready for services 24/7 unless the need was already shown.

IMHO you're onto the main answer to this question. While it seems reasonable enough to serve the needs of the people at all hours, pastors have to sleep and attend to other things just the same as the next person. So although they try to be available as long as possible, like a physician, unless the congregation has a number of priests or ordained ministers (which most do not), there aren't enough personnel to conduct worship services around the clock.
 
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RDKirk

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This is it. Church is made to fit the world.

No, Jesus has already stated the problem:
This is it. Church is made to fit the world.

By saying "Church is made to fit," are you accusing congregations of deliberately turning away pastors or leaders who have stated a willingness to work the graveyard shift every night?
 
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oi_antz

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No, Jesus has already stated the problem:


By saying "Church is made to fit," are you accusing congregations of deliberately turning away pastors or leaders who have stated a willingness to work the graveyard shift every night?
More I was aiming at the point of the church operating as a business, employing it's staff and operating as a business does. That makes it an enterprise. Rather, I had in mind, it should come to reinforce the real problem being the way the world operates, is not centered around the lifestyle of the people in it. In this case, that impacts a Christian whose social needs require private time on Sundays. Whereas the world's demands (ie her employer) place the profits of business over the needs of it's staff. I was hoping somebody would soon mention the value of the fourth commandment, but it seems it is now due.

Of course, my view is influenced by my own dissatisfactions with church operations, as I mentioned being horrified that on Christmas day, perhaps the one day where people might feel especially drawn to enter a church and hear the good news of Christ Jesus, the doors are all locked closed. What has happened to the observing of a holy day in our society? In the churches? More frequently though, I am impacted by the strict 10am start for majority of church congregations in this city. What it means, is I can only visit one church on a Sunday. If I happen to miss the 10am deadline, there is no church that starts at 10.30am. This is my gripe, as the OP must feel too, that churches are not serving the people, they are fixed in their ways. They rush and shuffle and force people to meet on time, speak a bit, cough up some cash, then tootle off to use the rest of the precious day however they want.
 
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Willie T

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I've recently started a new job in a nearby city some 30 miles away. I work Out of Hours each week on a rota basis - four days on, four days off - and so my life is running upside down to Church life. A considerable percentage of the working population in my county in the UK works shift pattern. The number of people who work Monday to Friday 9 am to 5 pm is in the minority.

So why does the Church continue to operate on a regular office hours basis? Surely, in proper Outreach, there should be a main meeting on Sunday and during the week. People working shifts should be able to attend a small group on whatever evening is convenient according to the shift pattern. Why isn't Church open 365 24/7?
Your employer didn't inform you of the hours you would be working before you chose to accept the job?
 
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Albion

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Of course, my view is influenced by my own dissatisfactions with church operations, as I mentioned being horrified that on Christmas day, perhaps the one day where people might feel especially drawn to enter a church and hear the good news of Christ Jesus, the doors are all locked closed. What has happened to the observing of a holy day in our society? In the churches?
You know, this is something others have wondered about, too. There has been such a trend towards Christmas Eve services, partially prompted by the idea that families want to be opening presents on Christmas morning, that the Christmas Day services often seem like an afterthought. It doesn't seem right. Why churches are locked, regardless of the day, is just because of the way our society has turned. They once were open, almost around the clock, for anyone to drop in for private prayer...but no more. If they weren't, everything would be stolen, including the eaves troughs.

More frequently though, I am impacted by the strict 10am start for majority of church congregations in this city. What it means, is I can only visit one church on a Sunday. If I happen to miss the 10am deadline, there is no church that starts at 10.30am.
Now, this seems surprising. In most cities, you can find churches that have several services on a Sunday morning and, if not that, different congregations with services starting at 9, 10, 10:30, or 11.
 
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RDKirk

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More I was aiming at the point of the church operating as a business, employing it's staff and operating as a business does. That makes it an enterprise. Rather, I had in mind, it should come to reinforce the real problem being the way the world operates, is not centered around the lifestyle of the people in it. In this case, that impacts a Christian whose social needs require private time on Sundays. Whereas the world's demands (ie her employer) place the profits of business over the needs of it's staff.

Your example of 24/7 operations makes no sense to that point, then. At this point in time, most people in this particular society have Sunday mornings free. Why would congregations not plan their major meeting when most of their membership is to meet without conflicts?

Your own example is self-conflicting. Businesses schedule their operations to meet their customers' needs, not their staff's proclivities. Hardly anyone wants to work graveyard shift, but a company that discovers a significant graveyard-shift customer base will staff for the graveyard shift regardless of staff desires. Isn't that what you're arguing a church should do?

Of course, my view is influenced by my own dissatisfactions with church operations, as I mentioned being horrified that on Christmas day, perhaps the one day where people might feel especially drawn to enter a church and hear the good news of Christ Jesus, the doors are all locked closed. What has happened to the observing of a holy day in our society? In the churches? More frequently though, I am impacted by the strict 10am start for majority of church congregations in this city. What it means, is I can only visit one church on a Sunday. If I happen to miss the 10am deadline, there is no church that starts at 10.30am. This is my gripe, as the OP must feel too, that churches are not serving the people, they are fixed in their ways. They rush and shuffle and force people to meet on time, speak a bit, cough up some cash, then tootle off to use the rest of the precious day however they want.

My congregation has regular services on Wednesday night, Saturday afternoon, early Sunday morning, mid Sunday morning, and late Sunday morning. The singers and musicians have to get in at 6 am on Sunday morning and don't leave until 2 pm. Those same singers and musicians are also working Wednesday and Saturday. Oh, but you want them to restart service just for you if you get there thirty minutes later?

Or do you think they should be starting a new service every 30 minutes...and you want that 24/7 as well?

And, btw, my congregation has both Christmas Eve and Christmas morning services.

However, I don't necessarily agree with your contention that the church building must be open 24/7 just in case someone wanders in. That didn't happen with the 1st century church, and the reason was not because they met in homes. That's simply not the way it's supposed to work. The regular meetings of the Body of Christ are not supposed to be evangelistic meetings, but self-support meetings.

Now, I've attended a congregation that looked at the Sunday morning services specifically as "the service you invite an unchurched friend to." The entire service was structured around an evangelistic message. There was a separate later service specifically designed for members with a message intended for believers...and sometimes specific information on the handling of congregation matters.

Let's take the congregation at Jerusalem, for instance. They clearly had specific teaching meetings (held at the temple). They also had meetings where resources were distributed to the members in need--those would be meetings were a lot of private information was revealed and shared among the membership. That was separate from their evangelistic outreach, such as Stephen performed.
 
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RDKirk

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That isn't very common, though.

My point, though, is that congregations operate to meet the needs of the members. The congregation I was a member of in rural Maryland had thirty members--all retired farmers and their wives--plus me and my small family. The regular meetings were a Sunday morning service and a Wednesday bible study. That membership didn't require any more.
 
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Albion

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My point, though, is that congregations operate to meet the needs of the members.
Yeh, I thought that was a good point. But as I said earlier, few congregations have the membership or personnel to be able to offer services -- not just availability, per se, but corporate worship services -- at six or seven different times a week.

The congregation I was a member of in rural Maryland had thirty members--all retired farmers and their wives--plus me and my small family. The regular meetings were a Sunday morning service and a Wednesday bible study. That membership didn't require any more.

Right. And this is the usual pattern. It can hardly be any other unless we're speaking of a big city church of a mainline denomination or one of those suburban non-denominational megachurches.
 
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oi_antz

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Your example of 24/7 operations makes no sense to that point, then.
I didn't suggest that.
At this point in time, most people in this particular society have Sunday mornings free. Why would congregations not plan their major meeting when most of their membership is to meet without conflicts?
This is the issue though, that the OP is expressing that he doesn't have Sunday mornings free, and I am saying that it seriously restricts the availability of exposure that every single church focusses their energies on the exact same moment. But this is the problem, driven by the enterprising mindset of churches, that they must all compete to grow their own flock. Otherwise, there would be cooperation between churches of mixed denomination, but instead we see contentions. These are un-Christ-like behaviours, motivated by desires of a physical nature. Every church has some contention in their heart. If they hide it, that is nice, but I still know it is there and it opposes the work of Christ.
Your own example is self-conflicting. Businesses schedule their operations to meet their customers' needs, not their staff's proclivities. Hardly anyone wants to work graveyard shift, but a company that discovers a significant graveyard-shift customer base will staff for the graveyard shift regardless of staff desires. Isn't that what you're arguing a church should do?
I am not really telling a church what it should do. I am expressing my criticisms, observations of the problems, but seriously RDKirk, I do not necessarily consider any loss if I cannot make it to a church on time, it is just The Lord's will IMO. I know when I have not done my best, as He tells me.
My congregation has regular services on Wednesday night, Saturday afternoon, early Sunday morning, mid Sunday morning, and late Sunday morning. The singers and musicians have to get in at 6 am on Sunday morning and don't leave until 2 pm. Those same singers and musicians are also working Wednesday and Saturday. Oh, but you want them to restart service just for you if you get there thirty minutes later?
:D No. Hopefully, I will have got there in time to hear His message!
Or do you think they should be starting a new service every 30 minutes...and you want that 24/7 as well?
Your church? I have never been there. Why should I criticise it?
And, btw, my congregation has both Christmas Eve and Christmas morning services.
:thumbsup: Please send them my thanks, for what they do for Him.
However, I don't necessarily agree with your contention that the church building must be open 24/7 just in case someone wanders in. That didn't happen with the 1st century church, and the reason was not because they met in homes. That's simply not the way it's supposed to work. The regular meetings of the Body of Christ are not supposed to be evangelistic meetings, but self-support meetings.
They aren't supposed to be where everyone sits quietly and lets their mind wander as someone they submit to preaches over them. I know that some churches do not operate this way, but I know that some do. The ones who make church an enterprise leverage this, to subdue the flock. They are the ones, who just as the rulers of the day when Jesus came, have taken the fruit of the kingdom of God for their own benefit and have refused to give to Him the harvest. Conversely, according to instruction of Jesus to St. Peter and the writings of St. Paul demonstrate, church is meant to feed the sheep and to grow a nation of saints, to lift the whole world out of the power of the evil one. Too many are failing in their positions to even lift themselves out of his power.
Now, I've attended a congregation that looked at the Sunday morning services specifically as "the service you invite an unchurched friend to." The entire service was structured around an evangelistic message. There was a separate later service specifically designed for members with a message intended for believers...and sometimes specific information on the handling of congregation matters.

Let's take the congregation at Jerusalem, for instance. They clearly had specific teaching meetings (held at the temple). They also had meetings where resources were distributed to the members in need--those would be meetings were a lot of private information was revealed and shared among the membership. That was separate from their evangelistic outreach, such as Stephen performed.
Ok. We are way off track though. Let us not do this, but rather agree quickly.
 
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oi_antz

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You know, this is something others have wondered about, too. There has been such a trend towards Christmas Eve services, partially prompted by the idea that families want to be opening presents on Christmas morning, that the Christmas Day services often seem like an afterthought. It doesn't seem right. Why churches are locked, regardless of the day, is just because of the way our society has turned. They once were open, almost around the clock, for anyone to drop in for private prayer...but no more. If they weren't, everything would be stolen, including the eaves troughs.
I am speaking about Christmas day, walking around the city. Everyone was relaxed, it was beautiful sunny day. It was the perfect environment, if any of those people happened to get the idea "I wonder, if I go into the church today, will it be a pleasant experience". What a shameful waste. I have said I was horrified. Consider why I chose that word.
Now, this seems surprising. In most cities, you can find churches that have several services on a Sunday morning and, if not that, different congregations with services starting at 9, 10, 10:30, or 11.
Probably if I look further abroad. 10am seems like a generally agreed time of convenience. It provides some sleep-in for the usual 8-5 worker, and allows the two hour service over in time to get home to use the afternoon. I can say though, I know there are options, but none at 10.30 or 11am that I know of. I went to one yesterday at 8am.
 
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oi_antz

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So, well, I ended up calling into a church that I had not planned to go to. What do you know, their service starts at 10.30! What's more, they all were there with their heart in it, and The Spirit was speaking clearly through them to all of us there. I looked around, they were all there in His presence, and many had tears of the love on their hearts. What a joy to find that fellowship!
 
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Truly1999

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So, well, I ended up calling into a church that I had not planned to go to. What do you know, their service starts at 10.30! What's more, they all were there with their heart in it, and The Spirit was speaking clearly through them to all of us there. I looked around, they were all there in His presence, and many had tears of the love on their hearts. What a joy to find that fellowship!
It is a rare joy these days in England where the Holy Spirit is moving in a church.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That is one of the problems created when the church stopped going from house to house on a daily basis as they did in the New Testament. In those days anyone could drop in anywhere and have fellowship with others and enjoy the apostles teaching, a meal together and prayer for one another.

Today the church is no longer "from house to house" but from religious building to religious building and it is all in the hands of professional christians who are paid to be christians. If they are not there nothing can happen. As a result so many churches totally ignore the priesthood of ALL believers which means that any believer can minister in any way according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In my area, every church except two meets Sunday morning. As a result 90% of the population does not darken the door of a church. It has never occurred to the professional leadership that there are other more appropriate times to meet i.e. afternoon when young people are getting up. It seems to be my way or no way.

No wonder the church is slipping into irrelevance.

What is your recommendation for getting back to this? Have thousands of people going house to house? Dropping in at anyone's house whenever?

Most people do not see that it was a different situation back then. People did not live in the same vacinity many times and people did indeed travel with their religious group. Does that mean we can ever get back to this model again? Will the population of Christians ever be small enough where there are not places of worshp, but rather people worshipped in homes?

I've heard this before, if we could only go back to the way the apostles did it, but things were different then. People were use to having travelors stay with them because people couldn't afford hotels and such. Hospitality was the way it was done.

Don't use the way churches are structured and that we have much larger populations as an excuse. No one is able to take 10 or 15 people traveling in to their homes. It's unrealistic, but easy to complain about and blame.
 
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