If you're a Christian and pro-choice, you're on the wrong side of the issue.

PapaZoom said:

What did you mean by this: Well, one can believe that Jesus is divine and still think that the divine messages in the Bible were tweaked by the human authors according to their culture, so I'm going to say that Christianity and being pro-choice are not mutually exclusive.

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"One" is not a first-person pronoun.

There is no other ethical dilemma that can quite be compared to pregnancy and abortion. It is even a legally murky area. Abortion is legal, yet if you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged for two murders. Is it okay to kill a life as long as it is symbiotic and can't survive outside of the womb? However, no baby can survive out of the womb without adult care anyway. Then you have further debates as to when abortion is okay or not okay- and what makes a person a person in the first place. Is it when someone has their full capacity to reason? If so, is a child not legally a person? Then there is the whole addition of rape, incest, and the mother's life being in danger to complicate things. There's all sorts of murky areas to this.

It's life, but it is symbiotic life. It is life that has the potential for becoming human. I believe that once a certain stage of development passes, it is undoubtedly murder. Viewed in this context- rape, incest, and the mother's life being endangered seem to be the most reasonable parameters- as while abortion is never ideal, it can be used if necessary.

That said, I do hold double standards when it comes to abortion. I think life is sacred, and would personally only have an abortion if my life was in danger, and it was recommended to me by my doctor (and even then I'd get a second opinion, talk to my priest and husband, and engage in some serious prayer before making the decision). If I were raped and became pregnant, I would keep the child. I also have the expectation that no Christian would choose abortion unless there were extremely serious issues to consider (and deciding you just don't want a child after choosing to have sex isn't one of these serious concerns), as their views on the sanctity of life should also exist.

I just can't see holding non-believers and/or people not of my faith to the same standards to which I hold myself and I don't think I should be the one calling the shots for others. This is why I view abortion as a necessary evil, and wish there was more education out there to discourage it, educate people on preventing (when possible) unplanned pregnancies so they don't have a difficult choice to make, and provide more services to help and support women and mothers, et cetera. I think women who've had abortions experience difficulties (even if brought on by their own actions), and need our compassion, not our demonization so they can heal. Even though I don't hold others to my standards, I think other people should never see abortion as a good thing.

I absolutely think there should be a focus on teaching responsibility before it ever gets to the point of someone even considering abortion as an option. It's not an ideal option and should be viewed accordingly. If some are using abortion as their only means of birth control, then they need an intervention, in my opinion.

SteveB28 said:

"there is no explicit prohibition of abortion in either the Old Testament or New Testament

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Of course there is, in both. The prohibition against murder. Also:

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Judges 13:3-5
3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Luke 1:42-45
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

The baby in the womb is alive and God knows him or her from the moment they are created. Some are called even before birth to be consecrated to God.

PapaZoom said:

Jesus was an advocate for the "least of these." We are to protect and love those that God has blessed us with (our offspring). We are made in the Image of God.

Consider these quotes by the early church fathers:


Tertullian (c.160-240)


And lest we forget:


You can read more here: http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/earlychurchfathers/fatherscover.html

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So just to be clear, nowhere in the OT or NT does it prohibit abortion?

seashale76 said:

There is no other ethical dilemma that can quite be compared to pregnancy and abortion.

I just can't see holding non-believers and/or people not of my faith to the same standards to which I hold myself

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I don't see any ethical problems except when allowing abortion. If you don't hold all life sacred, then why hold any life sacred? You end up with no standards at all, which leads to euthanasia and child murder being allowed for convenience sake. After all, why spend money on kids who will never be normal and will live substandard lives, if they survive until adulthood?

As for holding people accountable, if you believe that thieves, robbers and murderers should be prosecuted, then this type of murder should also be stopped by the government which should never have legalized it in the first place.

seashale76 said:

I just can't see holding non-believers and/or people not of my faith to the same standards to which I hold myself and I don't think I should be the one calling the shots for others. This is why I view abortion as a necessary evil, and wish there was more education out there to discourage it, educate people on preventing (when possible) unplanned pregnancies so they don't have a difficult choice to make, and provide more services to help and support women and mothers, et cetera. I think women who've had abortions experience difficulties (even if brought on by their own actions), and need our compassion, not our demonization so they can heal. Even though I don't hold others to my standards, I think other people should never see abortion as a good thing.

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Agreed. I think there are some pro-life individuals who are under the impression that pro-choice people like abortion, whatever that means. I would say that there are very few people who view it as the ideal form of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy or dealing with another form of crisis pregnancy. We would much rather see comprehensive sex education, affordable birth control and healthcare, sexual assault prevention, research on congenital malformations, higher adoption rates so that women feel that giving up their baby is a reasonable option, etc.

If you're a Christian and pro-choice, you're on the wrong side of the issue.

PapaZoom said:

Good. I'm interested as well. Frankly I was surprised to see so many Christians on this forum who were pro-choice. I was particularly surprised to see several of the Catholic faith considering the Church's view on the matter.

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Interesting. You surprised me as well.

Just so that it's not misunderstood, i'm not in the "pro-choice" camp, but i surely thought you were.

This thread you started surprises me as well...actually it floors me.

Thank you kindly.

SteveB28 said:

How fortunate we no longer live according to the dictates of those living in the first few centuries of the last millennium.

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Interesting comment. Is that a sickle you got there in your avatar?

pat34lee said:

I don't see any ethical problems except when allowing abortion. If you don't hold all life sacred, then why hold any life sacred? You end up with no standards at all, which leads to euthanasia and child murder being allowed for convenience sake. After all, why spend money on kids who will never be normal and will live substandard lives, if they survive until adulthood?

As for holding people accountable, if you believe that thieves, robbers and murderers should be prosecuted, then this type of murder should also be stopped by the government which should never have legalized it in the first place.

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Let's assume the conceptus is a person.

Is self-defense morally permissible? Is it still morally permissible if the attacker does not intend to harm anyone, i.e. the attacker is drugged against his will and is now acting violent?

brinny said:

Interesting comment. Is that a sickle you got there in your avatar?

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It is a scythe, a sickle is smaller.

Aryeh Jay said:

It is a scythe, a sickle is smaller.

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Thank you for the explanation. It was very kind of you to jump in when i had directed the question to someone else.

Since you were so helpful to point out that it is not a sickle in the avatar i was referring to, would you be so kind as to say what a scythe is, and what it's used for?

brinny said:

Thank you for the explanation. It was very kind of you to jump in when i had directed the question to someone else.

Since you were so helpful to point out that it is not a sickle in the avatar i was referring to, would you be so kind as to say what a scythe is, and what it's used for?

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Well now I feel bad about jumping in, but scythes are for cutting large amounts of long stem grain, like wheat. Sickles are used one handed and usually for smaller work.

Think the difference between a shovel and a trowel.

brinny said:

Thank you for the explanation. It was very kind of you to jump in when i had directed the question to someone else.

Since you were so helpful to point out that it is not a sickle in the avatar i was referring to, would you be so kind as to say what a scythe is, and what it's used for?

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A scythe is/was used to cut fields of hay or grass before more efficient horse drawn and mechanical implements were invented. As the scythe cuts, the hay or grass forms even rows as it falls to make raking easier later. The area that a scythe has cut is called a swath. The scythe requires two hands to operate; a sickle is smaller and only requires one hand. The sickle used to harvest grain like wheat or barley and the free hand is used to hold the stalks of grain before they are cut and deposit them into a container. After the farmers harvest the grain with a sickle they will go cut the standing stalks with a scythe for animal feed.

Armoured said:

Well now I feel bad about jumping in, but scythes are for cutting large amounts of long stem grain, like wheat. Sickles are used one handed and usually for smaller work.

Think the difference between a shovel and a trowel.

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LOL! I'm sorry, jump in anytime...i didn't mean any harm to the kind poster who responded above.

I shall apologize now to said poster.

And thank you for the explanation. I live in a concrete jungle so to speak and i am at a loss when it comes to farming implements.

Aryeh Jay said:

A scythe is/was used to cut fields of hay or grass before more efficient horse drawn and mechanical implements were invented. As the scythe cuts, the hay or grass forms even rows as it falls to make raking easier later. The area that a scythe has cut is called a swath. The scythe requires two hands to operate; a sickle is smaller and only requires one hand. The sickle used to harvest grain like wheat or barley and the free hand is used to hold the stalks of grain before they are cut and deposit them into a container. After the farmers harvest the grain with a sickle they will go cut the standing stalks with a scythe for animal feed.

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Thank you. I apologize if i came off sarcastically. Your generosity in explaining the difference is appreciated.

brinny said:

Thank you. I apologize if i came off sarcastically. Your generosity in explaining the difference is appreciated.

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I did not find your reply sarcastic. I read your quote/question, saw that you were online and that SteveB28 was offline, and I had used a scythe in my younger days so I thought I would give you a quick answer instead of you having to wait for SteveB28.

Aryeh Jay said:

I did not find your reply sarcastic. I read your quote/question, saw that you were online and that SteveB28 was offline, and I had used a scythe in my younger days so I thought I would give you a quick answer instead of you having to wait for SteveB28.

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That was very kind and gracious of you. Thank you.

brinny said:

That was very kind and gracious of you. Thank you.

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You’re welcome. No problem really.