Morality is Non-Rational

So what is raitonality? If morality is in our interests, and that is the definition of rationality, then what?

Tree of Life said:
So what this all adds up to is that morality is clearly part of our lives, but it cannot be derived from reason. It's already there and we reason from it.

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Morality is already there, and constantly broadcast to every soul through the still, small voice - every person knows light from dark, good from evil. Some prefer dark and evil, and hate the still, small inner voice that tells them the truth. Others (like you and me, probably), prefer light, good, and love - but are reluctantly drawn into animalistic behavior by corrupt cultures and leaders.

The apostle Paul was. He said, "what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I" (Romans 7:15).

But, to think that we can reason morals out with our puny human intellects, that is foolish hubris. The Son of God says over and over, "of myself, I can do nothing...but what the Father shows me." If Him, not you and me?

So people who know nothing of the Father have no morals?

GrowingSmaller said:

So people who know nothing of the Father have no morals?

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Morality is already there, and constantly broadcast to every soul through the still, small voice - every person knows light from dark, good from evil.

The more intimately one knows the Father, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, the simpler morality becomes. However, every person has a conscience. Some prefer dark and evil, and hate the still, small inner voice of conscience that tells them the truth. Others (like you and me, probably), prefer light, good, and love - but are reluctantly drawn into animalistic, immoral behavior by corrupt cultures and leaders.

jackcv said:

Morality is already there, and constantly broadcast to every soul through the still, small voice - every person knows light from dark, good from evil.

The more intimately one knows the Father, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, the simpler morality becomes. However, every person has a conscience. Some prefer dark and evil, and hate the still, small inner voice of conscience that tells them the truth. Others (like you and me, probably), prefer light, good, and love - but are reluctantly drawn into animalistic, immoral behavior by corrupt cultures and leaders.

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every person knows light from dark, good from evil. - not quite everyone - there are those born with psychopathic tendencies who would not consider "evil" what you or I might.

There are swathes of the middle east at the moment carrying out what we would consider moral atrocities - but they consider that a divinity has given then the moral authority to do so.

The bottom line question in these discussions is:

Is your idea of a god moral because of universal truths, or are morals universally true because god dictates so?

Morality is different things at different times to different people. One example is slavery.

We today think it's immoral, it was once moral and god gave us rules for it. Slavery in the Christian World existed in one form or another till the Russian Revolution. Where the serfs were owned by the wealthy, not an exact example. In some people moral judgement, it's close enough to be called slavery.

Thou shalt not steal, murder, hurt are obvious ones.

Is it immoral to impose one's will on women with what they can do?

jackcv said:

Morality is already there, and constantly broadcast to every soul through the still, small voice - every person knows light from dark, good from evil.

The more intimately one knows the Father, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, the simpler morality becomes. However, every person has a conscience. Some prefer dark and evil, and hate the still, small inner voice of conscience that tells them the truth. Others (like you and me, probably), prefer light, good, and love - but are reluctantly drawn into animalistic, immoral behavior by corrupt cultures and leaders.

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You never answered his question.

Is it possible for non Christians, or Christians with a very different view of god. To know what is moral and live their lives morally?

Is it impossible for Christians to be immoral?

Ana the Ist said:

Well, you certainly have a lot of variables that go into it...

You've got a set of external societal-cultural-religious-other constructs telling you what is right and wrong.

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Which they constantly change.

asherahSamaria said:

Is your idea of a god moral because of universal truths, or are morals universally true because god dictates so?

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God does not create truth. God is God because he's totally consecrated to truth. That is why he and Jesus and we can be one, and that is his goal. His stated goal.

Paul M 50 sites slavery as an example of morals changing. " they" change them. But how is being a slave different than being God's little lamb forever? A bigger brain perhaps.

Slavery is a non issue. The issue is how we treat people who work for us, who serve as come and what is our relationship to people who are above us socially.

The essential principle is love, charity, the pure love of Christ.

Charity is moral. Unity is moral. Just about everything else is immoral. That never changes regardless of religion, tongue, race or creed

jackcv said:

Paul M 50 sites slavery as an example of morals changing. " they" change them. But how is being a slave different than being God's little lamb forever? A bigger brain perhaps.

Slavery is a non issue. The issue is how we treat people who work for us, who serve as come and what is our relationship to people who are above us socially.

The essential principle is love, charity, the pure love of Christ.

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Who are "they" and does the church figure in that list?

As for being a non issue, are you saying if we keep a Human to work for free, it's ok if we feed them?

What about our relationship to those below us?

paulm50 said:

Which they constantly change.

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Indeed.

paulm50 said:

Who are "they" and does the church figure in that list?

As for being a non issue, are you saying if we keep a Human to work for free, it's ok if we feed them?

What about our relationship to those below us?

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Who are they, and what are they changing where my questions to you, PaulM50. I thought you meant the political and religious human leaders change morals, but they only change what they have the temerity to refer to as their "laws" - never morals.

Slavery is a non issue in this particular thread. The church that I belong to, and grew up in, teaches us to honor, obey, and sustain the laws of the land in charity and unity. That appears to be consistent with God's attitude, even including slavery, and also Paul's counsels.

I ask you: what is the difference between a slave and a lamb?

asherahSamaria" said:

every person knows light from dark, good from evil. - not quite everyone - there are those born with psychopathic tendencies who would not consider "evil" what you or I might.

There are swathes of the middle east at the moment carrying out what we would consider moral atrocities - but they consider that a divinity has given then the moral authority to do so.

The bottom line question in these discussions is:

Is your idea of a god moral because of universal truths, or are morals universally true because god dictates so?

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I thought similar things, asherahSamaria. However if a psychopath does not know the difference between good and evil, God would be a monster to punish him or her for doing evil. Wouldn't He?

I believe that the terrorists you mention fit neatly into my description of those who
[QUOTE ]prefer light, good, and love - but are reluctantly drawn into animalistic, immoral behavior by corrupt cultures and leaders.[/QUOTE]
They cannot legitimately be referred to as fundamentalist, because they're out of touch with the fundamentals of their own religions. Essentially, they are apostates from their own churches. I believe they are deceived by corrupt priests who are bought and sold like pork bellies. Old men start wars, young men fight them.

I believe our Father in Heaven will judge these young men's and women's hearts, and lovingly instruct and correct those who will be corrected.

Now to answer your question from my mind and heart: God does not create morals. They are eternal laws which he upholds with perfect consistency, mercy, and justice.

jackcv said:

Who are they, and what are they changing where my questions to you, PaulM50. I thought you meant the political and religious human leaders change morals, but they only change what they have the temerity to refer to as their "laws" - never morals.

Slavery is a non issue in this particular thread. The church that I belong to, and grew up in, teaches us to honor, obey, and sustain the laws of the land in charity and unity. That appears to be consistent with God's attitude, even including slavery, and also Paul's counsels.

I ask you: what is the difference between a slave and a lamb?

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You stated "they" so you have to tell us who "they" are.

Of course politicians and the religious leaders have always been brothers in arms. Actually they have changed bible laws. Are you saying the laws in the bible aren't gods laws?

The difference between a lamb and a slave? Are you implying we should treat the the same?

This thread is about morals, you want not to talk about certain laws, why?

How about the laws governing women then?

asherahSamaria said:

There are swathes of the middle east at the moment carrying out what we would consider moral atrocities - but they consider that a divinity has given then the moral authority to do so.

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As did countless christians when committing atrocities.

It shows how morals shift, but apply to all religions. The last Christian Army to commit genocide was in the Balkans.

My point is morals change, they change gods laws, without the need for guidance. Therefore bibles are flexible.

paulm50 said:

Which they constantly change.

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Did you forget writing this Paulm50?

So who did you say was changing what?

I appreciate your candor and stating that you believe morals change. That is very convenient for people who have no morals, or promote situational ethics at the expense of social and personal stability and safety. I believe that situational ethics and "shifting morals" are little more than clever counterfeits for continuing revelation from God. His morals never shift, but his situational directives often do, as we see throughout the Scriptures.

I have discussed below has about slavery, which are again a red herring and out of place in this particular thread. When will you tell me the difference that you see between lambs and slaves? Do you think God wants us to be his little lambs forever? That is certainly not the good news that the Bible preaches.

jackcv said:

Did you forget writing this Paulm50?

So who did you say was changing what?

I appreciate your candor and stating that you believe morals change. That is very convenient for people who have no morals, or promote situational ethics at the expense of social and personal stability and safety. I believe that situational ethics and "shifting morals" are little more than clever counterfeits for continuing revelation from God. His morals never shift, but his situational directives often do, as we see throughout the Scriptures.

I have discussed below has about slavery, which are again a red herring and out of place in this particular thread. When will you tell me the difference that you see between lambs and slaves? Do you think God wants us to be his little lambs forever? That is certainly not the good news that the Bible preaches.

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Thank you for the insult.

The Mormon church believed god said having multiple wives was correct. Then they changed this rule, when threatened by the US Government.

Were women allowed multiple husbands, or as second class citizens. Had to do as their husbands ordered?

The difference between slaves and lambs, is; We don't eat slaves. There are a lot more differences.

jackcv said:

I thought similar things, asherahSamaria. However if a psychopath does not know the difference between good and evil, God would be a monster to punish him or her for doing evil. Wouldn't He?

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God would be a monster to punish him or her for doing evil. Wouldn't He? - Well, "God" is apparently happy to let she-bears maul a group of children for calling a guy "bald" so "monster" seems to have quite the sliding scale of definition.

The problem with this type of discussion is it can only apply to today, the culture you live in and your own moral code.

I gave the example of Mormons and their sudden change of heart of polygamy. Then the Russian Orthodox Church supporting Tsars and the ruling class, then Balkan priests blessing arms that were used to kill Muslims. And we have Muslims who think the ability to keep slaves, allows them to pimp young girls. Happens in the UK. Then the whole ISIS situation.

This isn't a dig at religions. It's a dog at the morals of men, those who instigate the immoral and those who stand next to them claiming to talk for a god that loves you all.

This is why secular laws beat religious ones. Secular law seems to be more moral and steadfast when put into effect. Religious ones can be all over the place, according to the people deciding what part of their religious book applies, and of course god speaking to them.

Not a dig at god, just the men who claim it. Benny Hinn comes to mind.