Is the Church of Christ a cult because of their particular view of baptism?

Jesus First said:

Thanks for agreeing that Hebrews 9:10 is not about water baptism.

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Hello again, no i did not agree with you, I did say,

"The word diverse washings (baptismos) still applies to outward washing or cleansing by immersion (any of them and the word "diverse" relates to the many various kinds), and these are still carnal ordinances no matter how it is done or where, it still cannot make the person clean as pertaining to the conscience as any washing outwardly can do. "
and so the washings or "baptismo" of the Old Covenant were many. They had full submersion in a water for ritual cleaning for different reasons, and some argued with the disciples about the ritual cleanings in the gospels, the Pharisees and the baptisms of the disciples were an issue , most likely with the authority and various methods of doing it. But the jews knew of baptisms way before John came. Also when Gentile convert came to Judaism they had to have full submersion in baptism and circumcision and a sacrifice for them. According to the Jewish tradition of the day.

So i wasn't agreeing with you, I just pointed out that the divers washings there can also refer to the Levitical law and the Jewish traditions etc. But it also connects with Johns water, which were both outward washings and they were still under the law, John said he baptized with water but Jesus would baptise with the Holy Ghost. Johns baptism and Jesus baptism are different and for different purposes. So to try and continue Johns baptism in the new Covenant after the time of reformation, is not right. Yes the Jewish believers did continue many things under the law for many years after Christ death as scripture clearly shows in the book of Acts. But they did these things as Jews and as the Old Covenant was decaying and vanishing away. But it hadnt done so at that time.

And so all the diverse ( various different kinds of outward washings ( baptisms) , were imposed upon them until the time of reformation. Even Johns old covenant washing in the Jordan was part of this I believe.

Jesus First said:

What is your biblical evidence that John's baptism was under the old covenant? Unless you mean that it occurred before the cross?

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The New Covenant had not come yet, the new covenant was in the blood of Jesus.. John was still under the law and old covenant.John himself said that he must decrease ( meaning his whole ministry) and Jesus must increase.

I will answer more later have to step out

If Paul taught what Moses and the Prophets said would come, what did they say would come? Moses said,

15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
16 "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying,`Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.'
17 "And the LORD said to me:`What they have spoken is good.
18 `I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
19 `And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18:15-19 NKJ)

God told Moses that He would raise up anther prophet after him and that anyone who didn't listen to that prophet God would require it of them.

We find out that that prophet was in fact Jesus.

15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
18 "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,
21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
22 "For Moses truly said to the fathers,`The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 `And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'
24 "Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. (Acts 3:15-24 NKJ)

We see from Peter's words Jesus was indeed that prophet and he says that anyone who will not listen to that prophet shall be utterly destroy from among the people.

God said that that prophet would speak the words that God gave Him. What did Jesus say?

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (Jn. 12:49-50 KJV)

So, the words Jesus spoke were the words of the Father Himself. So what did He say?

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (Mk. 16:16-17 KJV)

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. (Mk. 11:25-26 KJV)

So, we see that the Father says one needs to be baptized and forgive others. I submit that the argument that one only needs to believe not only shows a misunderstanding of Paul's words but also denies the words of the Father Himself.

Since Paul said he preached none other than what Moses and the prophets said let's look at one of those prophets.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (Jer. 31:31-36 KJV)

So, we see in this new covenant that there are laws that must be followed.

The issue that I see is not that there are laws that must be followed - but that people actually want to follow them and do so with no effort.

AndOne said:

The issue that I see is not that there are laws that must be followed - but that people actually want to follow them and do so with no effort.

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My point was to the idea that one simply needs to believe and nothing else. It is so often claimed that anything one does is a work and is excluded from faith on that basis. The problem with that argument is that those who espouse it use their own definition of works and not Paul's definition of works. By using their own definition of works they not only contradict Paul but also other passages of Scripture.

Yea - I would say there is a difference between faith and belief.

Butch5 said:

My point was to the idea that one simply needs to believe and nothing else. It is so often claimed that anything one does is a work and is excluded from faith on that basis. The problem with that argument is that those who espouse it use their own definition of works and not Paul's definition of works. By using their own definition of works they not only contradict Paul but also other passages of Scripture.

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I agree. Real belief will cause action if able to. Paul's definition of the Gospel included "obedience of the faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26).

Disobedience comes from faithlessness. See Phil 1:27; Rom 2:7; 6:16; 10:6-8; 1 Tim. 1:19.

We're now a million miles off-topic, aren't we?

Albion said:

We're now a million miles off-topic, aren't we?

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Not really. Unless you believe that real belief does not require obedience.

Baptism was commanded. Is obedience of the faith necessary? I believe it is.

Jesus First said:

Not really. Unless you believe that real belief does not require obedience.

Baptism was commanded. Is obedience of the faith necessary? I believe it is.

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Well, let's see. First off, the question was about the Churches of Christ? I can't remember when anyone but me even so much as referred to that branch of Christianity. Then, there's the big question: do they merit the term "cult?" And, yes, that's connected in the thread's title to their view of Baptism...but a particular aspect of that view. It's not just about having faith, let alone "obedience." So, all in all, I still think we are way, way off topic.

Albion said:

Well, let's see. First off, the question was about the Churches of Christ? I can't remember when anyone but me even so much as referred to that branch of Christianity. Then, there's the big question: do they merit the term "cult?" And, yes, that's connected in the thread's title to their view of Baptism...but a particular aspect of that view. It's not just about having faith, let alone "obedience." So, all in all, I still think we are way, way off topic.

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Sorry for contributing to the derailment of the thread. In all honesty I'm not sure that the poster's assessment of the Churches of Christ is correct however. Regardless if that is what they believe I wouldn't go so far as to call them a cult or even heretical. It has been commanded in scripture (as was pointed out) and the question needs to be asked if you are a Christian why wouldn't you be baptised? I would question the faith of any supposed Christian who refused to be baptised.

Now - just so I'm clear - if a guy gets run over by a bus on his way to get baptised and dies I in no way whatsoever think that person would go to hell so long as he was of genuine faith.

AndOne said:

Sorry for contributing to the derailment of the thread. In all honesty I'm not sure that the poster's assessment of the Churches of Christ is correct however.

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Good. Then we're back on topic.

Regardless if that is what they believe I wouldn't go so far as to call them a cult or even heretical.

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It's easy to get labeled as a heretic because there's always someone who thinks you disagree on some issue or other and they label it as critically important. But I agree with you that the distinctive beliefs held by the members of Churches of Christ with regard to baptism don't rise to the level of a cult.

It has been commanded in scripture (as was pointed out) and the question needs to be asked if you are a Christian why wouldn't you be baptised? I would question the faith of any supposed Christian who refused to be baptised.

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Sounds reasonable to me. However, it's not uncommon among Baptists to find members in good standing who are entirely unapologetic about declining to be baptized. That has nothing in particular to do with the Churches of Christ, though.

Depends on the variety of Baptist you are talking about...

AndOne said:

Depends on the variety of Baptist you are talking about...

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Well, I did say "among Baptists." It's not the norm among Baptists, no.

Jesus First said:

I agree. Real belief will cause action if able to. Paul's definition of the Gospel included "obedience of the faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26).

Disobedience comes from faithlessness. See Phil 1:27; Rom 2:7; 6:16; 10:6-8; 1 Tim. 1:19.

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Yep, Paul defines works as keeping the ordinances of the Mosaic Law. If his arguments are followed in context that is abundantly clear. However, to many take his words and redefine works as anything one does. Paul nowhere makes that argument.

NCTPremill said:

They believe that water baptism effects forgiveness and justification. Thus, if you do not submit to full-immersion baptism you will not receive forgiveness and justification from God and you will eventually be sent to hell.

I find this pernicious doctrine heretical and no Bible-believing Christian will believe this nonsense. Discuss.

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This belief does not qualify them to be a cult but it is in line with many other Christian denominations that believe in a salvation by works process.
What makes a cult a cult is who they believe Jesus Christ is. Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a cult because they believe that Jesus Christ was a created demi-god and made God's son. Mormons are considered a cult because they believe that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan. 7th Day Adventist are considered a cult because they believe that Jesus Christ and Satan played an equal part in the great atonement. They believe that Christ was the goat that was slain but Satan was the goat that was bound and taken outside the camp. Muslims would also be considered a cult because they believe that Christ was not the Son of God but rather a prophet of lesser or equal stature as Muhammad. The list can go on, but the way to identify a cult is to check out their teachings as to who they believe that Christ is. (MK 8:27)
Many would question the Jewish religion, but there problem is, is that they have rejected their own Scriptures. There Scriptures do indeed teach them as to whom Christ is, but they have been temporarily blinded for the sake of the gentiles salvation (John 5:39; Lk 24:27)

The charge against the Churches of Christ that results in people calling them "cults" is more about the scrutiny and the pressure individual members are subjected to than is it about false teachings (which, as you note, is the proper theological reason for classifying any church as a cult).

charles at doctrineprimer said:

This belief does not qualify them to be a cult but it is in line with many other Christian denominations that believe in a salvation by works process.

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Charles,

Can you provide evidence that the Church of Christ teaches salvation by works? You are absolutely correct —they don't meet the definition of a cult.

Jesus First said:

Charles,

Can you provide evidence that the Church of Christ teaches salvation by works? You are absolutely correct —they don't meet the definition of a cult.

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It's right that the CsOfC are one of the very few Protestant church bodies that teaches faith plus works. It wouldn't be correct to say they teach 'salvation by works,' though, but people often phrase the idea that way when they actually mean faith plus works.

Albion said:

It's right that the CsOfC are one of the very few Protestant church bodies that teaches faith plus works. It wouldn't be correct to say they teach 'salvation by works,' though, but people often phrase the idea that way when they actually mean faith plus works.

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Thanks, Albion for the clarification.