How to get through to Conservatives?

I know you don't think of yourself as hating gays, but I think most people reading the previous posting would come away with the conclusion that the liberal talking heads are right. I'm sure you don't see it as hateful, and I believe you about your intent, but I think the majority of readers would.

Why? Because an increasing number of people don’t think there is a good reason to condemn gays. Thus they tend to regard people who do, not as following the implications of Biblical teachings, but as having made a choice to use the Bible in a way that rejects people. If there’s really a choice, then choosing to reject a group is hateful.

It’s all a matter of perspective. At one point people really believed that the Bible portrays blacks as cursed, and slavery to be an institution with God’s endorsement. The passages that they used are still there in the Bible. But today, someone who used the Bible in that way would be seen as hateful. They would no doubt say “I don’t hate blacks. I’m simply telling you what the Bible teaches.” But since most Christians no longer see that as the Biblical position, someone who does would be seen as having made a choice to use the Bible in that way.

The only surprise in this situation is how fast attitudes have changed. I realize many conservatives think it's due to a conspiracy by liberals. My own guess is that it's the accumulation of bad decisions. After being wrong on slavery, race relations, the role of women, divorce, contraception, and the protection of women and children from abuse, at a certain point there's a loss of credibility.

Martinius said:

I think you have hit on something. A couple of years back I saw the results of a study that showed no appreciable difference between professed Christians and others regarding ethical and moral behavior. I would have expected some difference, but no.

You may consider me cynical for saying this, but my decades of experience and observation indicate to me that a majority of Christians really make little attempt at BEING Christian in their lives, all the time. Many seem to slip in and out of a "Christian mode", such as when they are in church or teaching their children vs. when they are in other everyday social situations. It is not easy to find people who consistently follow the Gospel.

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I know that for me to live by Christian values would be to let people walk all over me. That's why I don't turn the other cheek or forgive, unless it is helpful to me. I will not love my enemy; I see no reason to do such.

Martinius said:

I think you have hit on something. A couple of years back I saw the results of a study that showed no appreciable difference between professed Christians and others regarding ethical and moral behavior. I would have expected some difference, but no.

You may consider me cynical for saying this, but my decades of experience and observation indicate to me that a majority of Christians really make little attempt at BEING Christian in their lives, all the time. Many seem to slip in and out of a "Christian mode", such as when they are in church or teaching their children vs. when they are in other everyday social situations. It is not easy to find people who consistently follow the Gospel.

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But on the other hand, many people who are not professed Christians or church-goers are products of our civilization which has been formed, to a large extent, by Christianity and Christian values. It's no accident that we value individualism, life, mutual respect, and so on...and all members of our society are formed to some extent by our history, whether or not they realize it.

Indeed, we often talk as though we have been adversely affected by the unpleasant aspects of our national past, never recognizing the uplifting parts. Them we simply put off to "human nature" or "all men feel that way," etc., which is not at all true.

nightflight said:

I know that for me to live by Christian values would be to let people walk all over me. That's why I don't turn the other cheek or forgive, unless it is helpful to me. I will not love my enemy; I see no reason to do such.

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The idea of letting people "walk all over" you is a common misunderstanding (especially by Christians) about what Jesus was saying and how people in his time understood the message. To "turn the other cheek" means in essence to stand up to aggression, in particular to someone with power or authority over you (master-servant). To do so is to tell the other person that no matter what socio-economic or political power they hold over you, they cannot take away your human dignity. This concept has been used successfully in non-violent resistance in many places during my lifetime, including India, the Philippines, and in the U.S. civil rights movement. Although Jesus was the greatest teacher and example of it, most Christians do not embrace the principle of passive resistance.

I will add that we cannot judge Christianity by the behavior of self-proclaimed Christians (unfortunately). Most Christian denominations bear little resemblance to the discipleship of Jesus as found in the Gospels or to the first Christian assemblies. Christian churches altered their course away from the Gospel many centuries ago, and with few exceptions and some minor course corrections have been heading in the wrong direction ever since.

Christianity is a way of life. Conservatism is an ideology which may or may not reflect Christian values. I think that there are far more Conservatives who have usurped the idea of Christianity than the reverse and we have suffered greatly for that. Political movements have no monopoly on the conscience of the people but they can use the tenants of one's beliefs against them when they attribute what is considered Evil in the eyes of the faithful to the actions of the opposition.

There is a passage in the Bible which states by their own fruits will they be measured
Matthew 7 15 - 20

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

This is not to say Conservative are all this way, but the leaders who push their agendas and yank their chains may not be thinking of Christianity. They may be using it and if Christians allow that then IMO they are no longer Christians.

Albion said:

But on the other hand, many people who are not professed Christians or church-goers are products of our civilization which has been formed, to a large extent, by Christianity and Christian values. ... Them we simply put off to "human nature" or "all men feel that way," etc., which is not at all true.

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I don’t know about others in the mainline churches, but I know very well that not all men treat each other right. I think you’re right that this is in some ways a vestige of our Christian history. I’m a bit concerned that it’s not going to continue. Unfortunately some of the larger threats to it in the US seem to be supported by conservative Christians: the tendency to criminalize any behavior we disagree with, and an increasingly selfish tone to culture.

hedrick said:

I don’t know about others in the mainline churches, but I know very well that not all men treat each other right. I think you’re right that this is in some ways a vestige of our Christian history. I’m a bit concerned that it’s not going to continue. Unfortunately some of the larger threats to it in the US seem to be supported by conservative Christians: the tendency to criminalize any behavior we disagree with, and an increasingly selfish tone to culture.

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Hmmm. That's interesting, considering that the thought police seem totally to be on the political LEFT these days. It's they who will try to get you fired or your business put into bankruptcy, etc. if you so much as speak a term that they don't approve of. I very rarely hear of anything like that coming from the Conservative end of the spectrum. Mostly, Conservatives defend and accept as right the idea of freedom of speech.

Albion said:

But on the other hand, many people who are not professed Christians or church-goers are products of our civilization which has been formed, to a large extent, by Christianity and Christian values. It's no accident that we value individualism, life, mutual respect, and so on...and all members of our society are formed to some extent by our history, whether or not they realize it.

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True, if you look at western nations and cultures primarily. There are many non-Christian places and cultures where the core values found in the Gospels are in play. As much as we want to, we cannot attribute the existence of "Christian values" only to Christianity. There are certain ethical and moral principles that occur in various cultures and societies, irrespective of the religion(s) that exist.

One other side point about "valuing life" as a Christian value. We have not done a great job with that one, have we? And our lack of "mutual respect", even among Christians, is notorious. Being liberal or conservative may be the least of the issues.

Edit: didn't realize this is 'liberals only'

Albion said:

Hmmm. That's interesting, considering that the thought police seem totally to be on the political LEFT these days. It's they who will try to get you fired or your business put into bankruptcy, etc. if you so much as speak a term that they don't approve of. I very rarely hear of anything like that coming from the Conservative end of the spectrum. Mostly, Conservatives defend and accept as right the idea of freedom of speech.

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I could make a joke about the reason the "thought police" all seem to be on the left is because the liberals are the ones who actually think. But I won't because it would not be fair or true.

In fact, there are "thought police" on both sides. I have seen many examples of conservatives who want to control speech, control who speaks where, and to whom. The communist witch hunts of the late 40's and 50's is just one historical example of how far out of kilter such thinking can go. The behavior to which you refer is an offshoot of fighting discrimination and prejudice, and I will agree that it has frequently spiraled into inanities about certain words. But neither side is immune.

Martinius said:

True, if you look at western nations and cultures primarily.

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...and those are the ones that have been most influenced by Christianity.

There are many non-Christian places and cultures where the core values found in the Gospels are in play.

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Not "only," but let's not obscure the reality of the matter by pointing to exceptions. Western values are, to a large extent, Christian in origin, and every member of those societies partakes, to a great extent, of those values, even when people imagine that they came from somewhere else.

One other side point about "valuing life" as a Christian value. We have not done a great job with that one, have we?

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You can say that, but why did you recognize this as a failing? It's because we, as a people, have a certain ideal of right and wrong that we instinctively judge our actions against. That's not the case in many other cultures.

Martinius said:

The communist witch hunts of the late 40's and 50's is just one historical example of how far out of kilter such thinking can go.

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Well, times change, don't they?

Crowns&Laurels said:

Liberalism is all about the good of specialty groups, not society as a whole....

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That's correct; Liberalism is about groups, both favored ones and disfavored ones, but definitely groups.

Edit: Didn't realize this was 'liberal only'.

Crowns&Laurels said:

Edit: Didn't realize this was 'liberal only'.

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Me neither, until just a bit ago.

This new system makes it much easier to lose track of which forum we're on. I'll exit now.

Crowns&Laurels said:

Edit: Didn't realize this was 'liberal only'.

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Define liberal!
This description in many ways encompasses each and every one of us. We just have not had the personal experiences that would make some realize that.