St. Euphrosynos Taverna and Ouzeri 44 (6)

~Anastasia~

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We have another vesperal liturgy tonight...I really wish that we still kept them separate with vespers in the evening and liturgy in the morning! I especially wish this in light of my husband's strong feelings on the matter.

I guess maybe vesperal liturgy is more convenient for people? We aren't supposed to do things for convenience though, and the flow of the service doesn't quite feel right when vespers and DL are combined.
Hmmmm, I don't know.

We have only one Vesperal Liturgy a year in our parish. I forget which one it was, but Father had to explain it to me (that it was necessary to prepare to receive Communion).

But then we don't usually have Vespers, just the Liturgy. Our parish seems to be undergoing something of a reviving, which is good, More and more young families and children. But the older generation has long been the core, and the schedule is probably mostly reflecting what works best for them. And they prefer daytime/morning events.
 
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All4Christ

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Hmmmm, I don't know.

We have only one Vesperal Liturgy a year in our parish. I forget which one it was, but Father had to explain it to me (that it was necessary to prepare to receive Communion).

But then we don't usually have Vespers, just the Liturgy. Our parish seems to be undergoing something of a reviving, which is good, More and more young families and children. But the older generation has long been the core, and the schedule is probably mostly reflecting what works best for them. And they prefer daytime/morning events.

There are a few prescribed vesperal liturgies each year for the very reason your priest mentioned. One major problem with having vesperal liturgy on other feast days is the deviation from the flow of the liturgy and vespers. There is a reason why we have vespers the night before the Divine Liturgy, and each section of the service is important. There are reasons why our Church set it up this way from very early in our Tradition all the way through today. It is concerning when things change for convenience sake, when Orthodoxy isn't supposed to change for that purpose. Granted, we can't be legalistic about it, but it is against what tradition has taught for centuries.

Here is a snippet about when vesperal liturgies are prescribed and the valid reasons for having them over the normal vespers / DL:

*The days calling for its celebration in some or all years include: Dec. 24, Jan. 5, March 25, Holy and Great Thursday, Holy and Great Saturday. Following the principle “the greater the feast, the shorter the fast,” it is celebrated (a) when there is a pre-festal Divine Liturgy on the eves of certain great feasts, and (b) on certain special days coinciding with the strict fast of Great Lent. In these situations the fast is longest, with the result that the Divine Liturgy comes at the end of the liturgical day. (By contrast, on Pascha, for example, there is no fast at all, so the celebration of the liturgy takes place as soon as possible.)

http://oca.org/liturgics/outlines/vespers-with-divine-liturgy

Bishop Tikhon released a letter in '97 explaining the downsides of unprescribed vesperal liturgies:

The Twelve Great Feasts of our Lord have Festal Antiphons (unlike the Eves of Theophany, Nativity, and Pascha) that proclaim in Psalm and Troparia the triumphant and festal nature of the day. In a "Vesperal" Liturgy, these are suppressed, and the Divine Liturgy begins with Vespers, as on a Strict Fast day. Further, the Twelve Great Feasts are distinguished from other Feasts by having an All-Night Vigil, that includes Matins with all its rich, beautiful hymnody, full of doctrine and sacred history. Even in parishes that serve the Matins in the morning, the Faithful are not deprived of this beauty and "on-going education" provided by the provisions of our Holy Typikon. To serve a "Vesperal" Liturgy is to suppress that all, or to kill the possibility of the parish ever growing up into its full stature. I believe that nothing worthwhile was ever attained or will be attained by lowering our sights, our expectations. After all, we have not ever adjusted our life in Church to conform to our own sinfulness. Our fallen sister Church has never ceased to condescend to the weakest of her members, especially regarding Fasting, while the Orthodox Church has never done so. The Romans lost their Wednesday fasting in the Middle Ages, retaining only their Ash Wednesday. In our times, they did away with their Friday fasting as well, retaining, in fact, only Good Friday. The Orthodox Church has never stopped hearing these words "Be ye perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect." We have always considered that perfection IS possible with God's help, we have never considered that we have lost both image and likeness. We have never accepted the idea that "perfectionism" is a pathology in our life in Christ, as others may have.

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit3.html

That said, I'll accept the Church's lead on this, but I on a personal level disagree with it on principle.
 
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~Anastasia~

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There are actually 3 real vesperal liturgies: on the eve of Nativity, Theophany, and Pascha. The services are explicitly written for those.

Theophany was celebrated in conjunction with another parish this year - it was a drive so if there was a vesperal liturgy I missed it - I went to the main one.

Those are easy to remember, as far as importance. I just don't remember which one we celebrated. Maybe Nativity? I was there for all the Paschal services though - but I think we had a Liturgy on Saturday morning, then another at midnight Saturday night.

A year ago I didn't even know what a vesperal liturgy was though. Thanks for the info. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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There are a few prescribed vesperal liturgies each year for the very reason your priest mentioned. One major problem with having vesperal liturgy on other feast days is the deviation from the flow of the liturgy and vespers. There is a reason why we have vespers the night before the Divine Liturgy, and each section of the service is important. There are reasons why our Church set it up this way from very early in our Tradition all the way through today. It is concerning when things change for convenience sake, when Orthodoxy isn't supposed to change for that purpose. Granted, we can't be legalistic about it, but it is against what tradition has taught for centuries.

Here is a snippet about when vesperal liturgies are prescribed and the valid reasons for having them over the normal vespers / DL:



http://oca.org/liturgics/outlines/vespers-with-divine-liturgy

His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon released a letter in '97 explaining the downsides of unprescribed vesperal liturgies:



http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit3.html

That said, I'll accept the Church's lead on this, but I on a personal level disagree with it on principle.


Hmmmmm. Thank you so much. This is a lot to think about (especially since we very unfortunately don't serve all those at our parish on a regular basis). I love my parish and our priest, and with it being such a drive, it would probably be difficult for me to attend so many extra services if we did have them. But I hope that SOMEday I might live close enough
to a parish that has the extra services that I might be able to attend more of them.

There is an Antiochian parish about the same distance as my parish that has Vespers twice a week. I have been trying to go there when there are no extra Liturgies at my parish.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I'm starting to get the horrid feeling that my days as a happily single bachelor may soon be coming to a close.

Meh... I had a good few years :cool:

I'm guessing you are joking a bit - otherwise one might wonder if getting married was a good idea at all, lol!

Congratulations?
 
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We celebrated Dormition yesterday [ one of the reasons I'm away from home visiting Fr Confessor ;) ] He has discussed Feast Day Liturgies with his parish [ and it's growing !! - He's got Baptisms every Saturday and Sunday for the next few weeks !! ] and discussed the options with them, The concensus was Liturgy in the evening of the Feast so they could leave work and head to Church - they emphatically didn't want it as a Vesperal Liturgy the evening before the Feast. So that's what we did - a reasonable attendance - some latecomers but a wonderful Liturgy ending with blessing of flowers.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I just stumbled on the weirdest site - I was looking for a definition and thought I'd check what the Orthodox Church had to say when I saw the domain (another page) - I thought perhaps it might be an OO or something similar. They call themselves Moorish Orthodox.

This is weird. It's some combination (as far as I can tell) of Christian / Muslim / New Age / Who-knows-what-else. And they have "missing" parts of the Bible (those are always a good idea, right? /sarcasm off).

I'm curious if this was something ever rejected by the Church, but ... I'm thinking it might not have even existed or found its way into consideration back then. Not that it really matters. This is very idle curiosity.

Just strange though. I hope no one looking into Orthodoxy gets confused by this ...
 
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All4Christ

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That was Bishop Tikhon, a different Tikhon than the current Metropolitan
Oh...thanks for the clarification! I was thinking it was him before going to St Tikhon's seminary. I'm really bad at keeping all that straight...
 
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I just stumbled on the weirdest site - I was looking for a definition and thought I'd check what the Orthodox Church had to say when I saw the domain (another page) - I thought perhaps it might be an OO or something similar. They call themselves Moorish Orthodox.

This is weird. It's some combination (as far as I can tell) of Christian / Muslim / New Age / Who-knows-what-else. And they have "missing" parts of the Bible (those are always a good idea, right? /sarcasm off).

I'm curious if this was something ever rejected by the Church, but ... I'm thinking it might not have even existed or found its way into consideration back then. Not that it really matters. This is very idle curiosity.

Just strange though. I hope no one looking into Orthodoxy gets confused by this ...
Looks like a strange combination of beliefs....

That said, without looking at it more closely, syncretism was rejected by the church, so the incorporation of elements from other world religions is considered to be heresy from the earliest times of the Church.
 
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Looks like a strange combination of beliefs....

That said, without looking at it more closely, syncretism was rejected by the church, so the incorporation of elements from other world religions is considered to be heresy from the earliest times of the Church.
True.

As far as being rejected by the Church, I was actually thinking of their " missing Bible sections". But I somehow think those might not even have been up for consideration. (They seem to be about Christ, followed by a set of moral books - they do cite things like Christ in the temple as a child, the crucifixion, resurrection.)

I know the whole blend-everything-together approach is never accepted.

That site is just really weird. I skimmed the idea of 3 posts or so ... it may be a racial thing as well, and it seems humans are becoming real Gods capable of determining morality through their own will as well.

REALLY weird.
 
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True.

As far as being rejected by the Church, I was actually thinking of their " missing Bible sections". But I somehow think those might not even have been up for consideration. (They seem to be about Christ, followed by a set of moral books - they do cite things like Christ in the temple as a child, the crucifixion, resurrection.)

I know the whole blend-everything-together approach is never accepted.

That site is just really weird. I skimmed the idea of 3 posts or so ... it may be a racial thing as well, and it seems humans are becoming real Gods capable of determining morality through their own will as well.

REALLY weird.
Check out their Wikipedia page...explains a lot about the history...looks like there are a lot of branches as well, some with Christian elements, some without any deity...
 
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gzt

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Theophany was celebrated in conjunction with another parish this year - it was a drive so if there was a vesperal liturgy I missed it - I went to the main one.

Those are easy to remember, as far as importance. I just don't remember which one we celebrated. Maybe Nativity? I was there for all the Paschal services though - but I think we had a Liturgy on Saturday morning, then another at midnight Saturday night.

A year ago I didn't even know what a vesperal liturgy was though. Thanks for the info. :)
The Saturday morning is the "vesperal" liturgy.
 
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gzt

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I'm starting to get the horrid feeling that my days as a happily single bachelor may soon be coming to a close.

Meh... I had a good few years :cool:
May God have mercy on your soul.
 
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Well - that was a wonderful afternoon helping bake Prosphora with Fr Confessor and a lady from the Parish. For the last year he's been baking his own - since his previous 'baker' gave up.

There's now 5 weeks supply cooling and, other than the ones for tomorrow , ready for freezing .
 
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