Jesus savior of the world

Irnawan Silitonga said:

Do you believe that Jesus will saves all men?

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Acts 4:11-12 (NLT) states:

11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

‘The stone that you builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.'

12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

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There is salvation only in Jesus. So how can all the people in the world who do not submit to Jesus be saved at the point of their deaths?

Are you going to provide biblical evidence for universal salvation?

Oz

Irnawan Silitonga said:

Do you believe that Jesus will saves all men?

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If i examine the scriptures below, i come to the conclution that not all men have equal chance to be saved.

John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
There are two kinds of men.



Rev3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
We can explore the verse above with the questions below:
1. Does every one have ears ?.
2. Is the verse above sent to who has no ears ?.
3. Does every one who have ears , finally listens ?.
4. Why does the verse not say " who has ears , surely listen " ?.
......... so we also find that there are two kinds ofmen here.





Exd11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel
Also here we can find : there are two kinds of men.





Rev13:8 All people living on earth will worship it(worship to the beast/satan), except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed
Rev17:8 That beast was once alive, but lives no longer; it is about to come up from the abyss and will go off to be destroyed. The people living on earth whose names have not been written before the creation of the world in the book of the living, will all be amazed as they look at the beast. It was once alive; now it no longer lives, but it will reappear.
Also here we can find : there are two kinds of men.

Jesus Christ will not save all men because not all men will accept and obey him. However some teach that everyone eventually gets saved, but this is false doctrine. Salvation comes through a choice and when we make the choice to accept and acknowledge Christ as the only way and obey the word, we are saved.

LovelyGiselle said:

Jesus Christ will not save all men because not all men will accept and obey him. However some teach that everyone eventually gets saved, but this is false doctrine. Salvation comes through a choice and when we make the choice to accept and acknowledge Christ as the only way and obey the word, we are saved.

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salvation which depend on choice can't be said as grace instead of achievement .
In the premise : salvation is only by God's grace there should be no will that men can depend on , men just like corpses in the eye of God / men entirely spiritually dead / men only have negative will (how to reach the eternal death as soon as possible/how to actualize their death as soon as possible Rom3:10-12), that need to be resurrected / need to be saved .
If men still have the positive will ( can choose and can obey God ) they did not need to be driven out from Eden just only to keep them not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally , if in that state actually they still have the positive will and in fact they are driven out from Eden , so the commander to driven out should be not God ,or we should argue if the commander is worthy to be God.
reason: men that stand on courthouse will say " of course i can't fulfill Your so many and complicated laws ,but actually the case is You know that i surely can obey You, i surely can seek You why not You let me be in Eden with the very simple law " not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally " that You know i surely can fulfill it .
What answer will God launch ?.

adhidarmawijaya said:

salvation which depend on choice can't be said as grace instead of achievement .
In the premise : salvation is only by God's grace there should be no will that men can depend on , men just like corpses in the eye of God / men entirely spiritually dead / men only have negative will (how to reach the eternal death as soon as possible/how to actualize their death as soon as possible Rom3:10-12), that need to be resurrected / need to be saved .
If men still have the positive will ( can choose and can obey God ) they did not need to be driven out from Eden just only to keep them not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally , if in that state actually they still have the positive will and in fact they are driven out from Eden , so the commander to driven out should be not God ,or we should argue if the commander is worthy to be God.
reason: men that stand on courthouse will say " of course i can't fulfill Your so many and complicated laws ,but actually the case is You know that i surely can obey You, i surely can seek You why not You let me be in Eden with the very simple law " not eating the fruit of the tree of life intentionally " that You know i surely can fulfill it .
What answer will God launch ?.

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I'm not sure I understand your reply. I'm stating that Jesus Christ saves those who choose to accept and obey him.

LovelyGiselle said:

I'm not sure I understand your reply. I'm stating that Jesus Christ saves those who choose to accept and obey him.

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In my reply #3 , the scriptures showed there are two kinds of men in the world , one is God's people ( born of God/listed in the book of life before the creation of the world) and the other is born of flesh.
The first one are God's purpose to be saved through purification process where the winner = the saved (Rev3:5 , Eph1:4 ), and the loser will go to the eternal death like the second one (because their names in that time are removed from the book of life ).

The second one= they are not intentionally created = born of flesh = without ears to hear = not listed in the book of life before the creation of the world , they will never being saved by grace what ever their mouth say "choose to accept and obey Him " their spirit surely say otherwise .

illustration:
If before the foundation of the world, the book of life contains A,B,C,D,E,F,G. ( God planned to create them, one by one in time and place as He wanted = 7 persons ).
If men had ever lived in the world = 66 persons ( from the beginning until the last ), 7 among these 66 are created by God , and the rest 59 are the representation of the satans them selves ( born of flesh ,included cloning creatures ), cause God's angels will stay as faithful servants .

John8:44 You are the children of your father, the Devil, and you want to follow your father's desires. From the very beginning he was a murderer and has never been on the side of truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is only doing what is natural to him, because he is a liar and the father of all lies.

John6:70 Jesus replied, "I chose the twelve of you, didn't I? Yet one of you is a devil!"

1John3:12 We must not be like Cain; he belonged to the Evil One and murdered his own brother Abel. Why did Cain murder him? Because the things he himself did were wrong, and the things his brother did were right.

Mark5:9 So Jesus asked him, "What is your name!" The man answered, "My name is 'Mob'--there are so many of us!"
5:10 And he kept begging Jesus not to send the evil spirits out of that region.
5:11 There was a large herd of pigs near by, feeding on a hillside.
5:12 So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
5:13 He let them go, and the evil spirits went out of the man and entered the pigs. The whole herd--about two thousand pigs in all--rushed down the side of the cliff into the lake and was drowned.

With this illustration we can know the reason , why this scripture says :
Rom9:11-12 But in order that the choice of one son might be completely the result of God's own purpose, God said to her, "The older will serve the younger." He said this before they were born, before they had done anything either good or bad; so God's choice was based on his call, and not on anything they had done.
9:13 As the scripture says, "I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau."

.......---------> Esau was representation of the devil him self ,cause Esau was born of flesh, but Jacob was His /Jacob's name was listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

Irnawan Silitonga said:

Do you believe that Jesus will saves all men?

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NO. The death of Jesus propitiated the sin of only those who Jesus is willing to apply his blood - Grace - to.

As both High Priest and Lamb, his death was not Grace, but was a free act of love. The salvation of men is only by God's favor (grace) which is not given to all men, for only faith brings God's favour. (Eph 2:8)

The blood of CHrist must be APPLIED, which symbolically speaking, is displayed by the First Exodus, where the house is painted with blood. The house is a symbol used by Christ many times in his teaching, and is also the place where his final supper took place. His prayer on Passover eve, at the time of the lamb slaughter, and while Judas betrayed him, is the explicit application of the blood of Jesus over the earth. For this reason Jesus prayed over the elect, and also shed his blood through sweat that touched the earth and cleansed creation.

The suffering death of Jesus on the cross was also necessary, so that he could end the sacrificial system of Moses, but that is not the point in time when atonement took place. Atonement is an ongoing process whereby the living priest applies the blood to the altar, and sends the sin away to be forgotten (Leviticus 16)

Irnawan Silitonga said:

Do you believe that Jesus will saves all men?

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The death of our Lord and Saviour was indeed sufficient to save all men but the Word of God is very clear that all men will not be saved.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(Joh 3:16)
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rev 20:15)

LovelyGiselle said:

Jesus Christ will not save all men because not all men will accept and obey him. However some teach that everyone eventually gets saved, but this is false doctrine. Salvation comes through a choice and when we make the choice to accept and acknowledge Christ as the only way and obey the word, we are saved.

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We choose but He tickles our willer to say yes!

LovelyGiselle said:

I'm not sure I understand your reply. I'm stating that Jesus Christ saves those who choose to accept and obey him.

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You are putting the cart before the horse. People only choose to accept and obey him because Christ has already turned their hearts and drawn them to himself. Christ came to save all those whom the Father had given to him. It was God who chose us to save, not us to be saved.

A New Dawn said:

You are putting the cart before the horse. People only choose to accept and obey him because Christ has already turned their hearts and drawn them to himself. Christ came to save all those whom the Father had given to him. It was God who chose us to save, not us to be saved.

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Has God chosen all men, called all mankind to be saved, yet saving only those who respond? My thought is that this is so. I think there's been a time in everyone's life where God is accepted or rejected. God having given them to Jesus tho almost creates another scenerio .. I think of the many recorded instances of Jesus appearing to Muslims. The bible states that Jesus is the only way and for some this means a step into respectability, others a life threatening event, but to all who accept Him it is a changed life.

A New Dawn said:

You are putting the cart before the horse. People only choose to accept and obey him because Christ has already turned their hearts and drawn them to himself. Christ came to save all those whom the Father had given to him. It was God who chose us to save, not us to be saved.

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That's not what John 12:32 (NIV) states and the words come from Jesus: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Oz

OzSpen said:

That's not what John 12:32 (NIV) states and the words come from Jesus: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Oz

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Christ didn't say that he would draw all people. The word "people" is not in the text. He simply said that he would draw "all." The word "all" does NOT refer to every individual and neither did his disciples take it that way. He meant that he would draw all nations unto himself and not just Jews only. "Go ye into all the world and make disciples from all nations" (not every individual).

You have committed yourself to the conclusion that every individual from Christ until now has heard the gospel and has been drawn by Christ. But we know that this is an absurd conclusion.

Aijalon said:

NO. The death of Jesus propitiated the sin of only those who Jesus is willing to apply his blood - Grace - to.

As both High Priest and Lamb, his death was not Grace, but was a free act of love. The salvation of men is only by God's favor (grace) which is not given to all men, for only faith brings God's favour. (Eph 2:8)

The blood of CHrist must be APPLIED, which symbolically speaking, is displayed by the First Exodus, where the house is painted with blood. The house is a symbol used by Christ many times in his teaching, and is also the place where his final supper took place. His prayer on Passover eve, at the time of the lamb slaughter, and while Judas betrayed him, is the explicit application of the blood of Jesus over the earth. For this reason Jesus prayed over the elect, and also shed his blood through sweat that touched the earth and cleansed creation.

The suffering death of Jesus on the cross was also necessary, so that he could end the sacrificial system of Moses, but that is not the point in time when atonement took place. Atonement is an ongoing process whereby the living priest applies the blood to the altar, and sends the sin away to be forgotten (Leviticus 16)

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Judas Iscariot was present when our Lord told the disciples, "My blood...is shed for you" (Luke 22:20,21).

The Boxer said:

Christ didn't say that he would draw all people. The word "people" is not in the text. He simply said that he would draw "all." The word "all" does NOT refer to every individual and neither did his disciples take it that way. He meant that he would draw all nations unto himself and not just Jews only. "Go ye into all the world and make disciples from all nations" (not every individual).

You have committed yourself to the conclusion that every individual from Christ until now has heard the gospel and has been drawn by Christ. But we know that this is an absurd conclusion.

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You make several false assumptions about my post:

• pantas in John 12:32 is an accusative, plural masculine adjective of pas. It requires a noun to complete its meaning. This often happens in Greek where the adjective is treated as a substantive with a noun assumed. The noun assumed is most certainly not crocodiles or pyramids.
• The drawing of God does not mean all will respond to that drawing. However, we know from Rom 1:20 that at the end of time all people will stand before God and will be 'without excuse'. What have they done with the evidence in creation that God provided?
• Where in the context of John 12:32 does it state that this is referring to all nations and not all people?
• Matt 28:18-20, which you quoted, does not explain how John 12:32 refers to nations. You have penny picked a verse to serve your purpose.
• I have never claimed that every individual from Christ to now has heard the Gospel. That's a straw man and a bad allegation against me.
• Of course your conclusion about me and everyone hearing the Gospel is absurd because you invented that absurdity. I didn't say it or infer it.

I urge you to engage in accurate interpretation of what I wrote. You have not done that here.

Oz

OzSpen said:

You make several false assumptions about my post:

• pantas in John 12:32 is an accusative, plural masculine adjective of pas. It requires a noun to complete its meaning. This often happens in Greek where the adjective is treated as a substantive with a noun assumed. The noun assumed is most certainly not crocodiles or pyramids.
• The drawing of God does not mean all will respond to that drawing. However, we know from Rom 1:20 that at the end of time all people will stand before God and will be 'without excuse'. What have they done with the evidence in creation that God provided?
• Where in the context of John 12:32 does it state that this is referring to all nations and not all people?
• Matt 28:18-20, which you quoted, does not explain how John 12:32 refers to nations. You have penny picked a verse to serve your purpose.
• I have never claimed that every individual from Christ to now has heard the Gospel. That's a straw man and a bad allegation against me.
• Of course your conclusion about me and everyone hearing the Gospel is absurd because you invented that absurdity. I didn't say it or infer it.

I urge you to engage in accurate interpretation of what I wrote. You have not done that here.

Oz

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I agree that pantas needs a noun to complete it. That noun should be "ethnos" (nations). You ask where it explicitly says "nations." But that question goes to you too. Where does it say "people." It doesn't. It is from the Great Commission that we know that it is nations that are in view.

I did NOT say that you claimed that every individual from Christ until now has heard the gospel. I said that you are forced to accept that conclusion. If Christ draws every individual, then every individual will hear the gospel. You are illogical.

The Boxer said:

I agree that pantas needs a noun to complete it. That noun should be "ethnos" (nations). You ask where it explicitly says "nations." But that question goes to you too. Where does it say "people." It doesn't. It is from the Great Commission that we know that it is nations that are in view.

I did NOT say that you claimed that every individual from Christ until now has heard the gospel. I said that you are forced to accept that conclusion. If Christ draws every individual, then every individual will hear the gospel. You are illogical.

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So the noun to accompany pantas should be ethnos in your view. According to John 3:16, God so loved the world (kosmos), the kosmos of what or whom? The world of people that 'whoever believes'.

I am NOT forced to the conclusion that all people from the time of Christ until now have heard or will hear the Gospel. I don't think it is necessary to split hairs over whether people or nations are drawn to Christ. After all, nations are made up of people.

I am not being illogical; your interpretation of what I wrote is improper.

We know from Rom 1:18ff that people are 'without excuse' before God because of the evidence from creation.

To what does 'all' refer?

Greek textual expert, Dr Bruce Metzger's, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, made this assessment:

John 12:32 πάντας ἑλκύσω {D} Since the reading πάντα, supported by p66 aleph* D it vg syr.s.p.pal, cop.sa.bo.ach.2, goth, eth, geo.1, al, is ambiguous ("everyone," "all things," "all"), it is possible that copyists, desiring to remove the ambiguity, added a sigma. A majority of the Committee, however, favored the reading πάντας because of the weight of its external attestation and because it appears to be more congruent with Johannine theology. The reading πάντα, which suggests ideas of a cosmic redemption, may have arisen under the influence of Col. 1.16-17 and/or Gnostic speculation. [Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. (Germany: United Bible Societies, 1971. Corrected edition, 1975.), p. 238.)

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Oz

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