Are you a Confessional Lutheran?

GracetotheHumble · Aug 27, 2015

PreachersWife2004 said:
No, we don't consider the MAN to be the anti-Christ. It's the OFFICE.

Please provide proof to back up this statement.

According to this Wikipedia page on Confessional Lutheranism WELS does not agree with LCMS that the anti-Christ is "the office": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_Lutheranism#Views_on_the_Pope

Here is the quote from the section on the Pope: "The Missouri Synod teaches "Antichrist" refers to the office, and not to the person, while WELS disagrees."

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 27, 2015

ContraMundum said:
OK...is there some law of physics that says people can't change their beliefs/practices/theology?

Contra, maybe not a law of physics, but a law of attitude.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 27, 2015

PreachersWife2004 said:
No, we don't consider the MAN to be the anti-Christ. It's the OFFICE.

I did not want to speak for WELS PW, but I would have been correct!

GracetotheHumble said:
Please provide proof to back up this statement.

According to this Wikipedia page on Confessional Lutheranism WELS does not agree with LCMS that the anti-Christ is "the office": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_Lutheranism#Views_on_the_Pope

Here is the quote from the section on the Pope: "The Missouri Synod teaches "Antichrist" refers to the office, and not to the person, while WELS disagrees."

What brand of Lutheran are you BTW; your position is not reflected by the two (three -- LCC) main confessional bodies in North America, in fellowship and agreement with virtually all the other confessional Churches?

This closed minded view of the treatise and the Pope I would expect more from the Pietists and Crypto Calvinists than I would from a confessional Church.

Maybe you should talk to a WELS Pastor or Sem Professor rather than relying on an open mess like Wiki.

GracetotheHumble · Aug 27, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
What brand of Lutheran are you BTW

I attend the LCMS. I also have a brother who attends a WELS church.

GracetotheHumble · Aug 27, 2015

I don't see anything in that article on the WELS site that would make me believe that they don't hold the actual person of the Pope to be anti-Christ.

WirSindBettler · Aug 27, 2015

I'm proud to be a humble confessional Lutheran [LCMS].

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 27, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
I don't see anything in that article on the WELS site that would make me believe that they don't hold the actual person of the Pope to be anti-Christ.

PW is WELS; her husband is a WELS parish Pastor. It is very bad form to tell someone of a different Chruch than your own what you think they believe. PW is a great source for all things WELS, and so is her Pastor; a better source I wager than Wikipedia or someone that seems to hold a very, as I posted above, pietistic and literalistic view of the Treatise, putting Scripture first and... Like Scripture, take the BOC as a whole and in context; the same way that LCMS and WELS view Scripture

GracetotheHumble · Aug 27, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
PW is WELS; her husband is a WELS parish Pastor. It is very bad form to tell someone of a different Chruch than your own what you think they believe. PW is a great source for all things WELS, and so is her Pastor; a better source I wager than Wikipedia or someone that seems to hold a very, as I posted above, pietistic and literalistic view of the Treatise, putting Scripture first and... Like Scripture, take the BOC as a whole and in context; the same way that LCMS and WELS view Scripture

I read the article from the WELS website she posted and I didn't see anything that made me change my understanding of the WELS position. So at this point I haven't changed my mind. The LCMS website specifically states that only the office of the Papacy is anti-Christ. Once she is able to show me a similar statement on the WELS website then I will believe. I can't simply take someones word if the facts point otherwise.

WirSindBettler · Aug 27, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
I read the article from the WELS website she posted and I didn't see anything that made me change my understanding of the WELS position. So at this point I haven't changed my mind. The LCMS website specifically states that only the office of the Papacy is anti-Christ. Once she is able to show me a similar statement on the WELS website then I will believe. I can't simply take someones word if the facts point otherwise.

If the LCMS says the papacy is anti-Christ, you can bet the farm that WELS will agree.

WirSindBettler · Aug 27, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
I don't see anything in that article on the WELS site that would make me believe that they don't hold the actual person of the Pope to be anti-Christ.

"IV. Therefore on the basis of a renewed study of the pertinent Scriptures we reaffirm the statement of the Lutheran Confessions, that “the Pope is the very Antichrist” (cf. Section II), especially since he anathematizes the doctrine of the justification by faith alone and sets himself up as the infallible head of the Church.

We thereby affirm that we identify this “Antichrist” with the Papacy as it is known to us today, which shall, as 2 Thessalonians 2:8 states, continue to the end of time, whatever form or guise it may take. This neither means nor implies a blanket condemnation of all members of the Roman Catholic Church, for despite all the errors taught in that church the Word of God is still heard there, and that Word is an effectual Word. Isa 55:10, 11; cf. Apology XXIV, 98, cited above under II.

We make this confession in the confidence of faith. The Antichrist cannot deceive us if we remain under the revelation given us in the Apostolic word (2 Th 2:13-17), for in God’s gracious governance of history the Antichrist can deceive only those who “refused to love the truth” (2 Th 2:10-12).

And we make this confession in the confidence of hope. The Antichrist shall not destroy us but shall himself be destroyed—”Whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming” (2 Th 2:8).

We reject the idea that the fulfillment of this prophecy is to be sought in the workings of any merely secular political power (2 Th 2:4; cf. Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope 39).

We reject the idea that the teaching that the Papacy is the Antichrist rests on a merely human interpretation of history or is an open question. We hold rather that this teaching rests on the revelation of God in Scripture which finds its fulfillment in history. The Holy Spirit reveals this fulfillment to the eyes of faith (cf. The Abiding Word, Vol. 2, p. 764). Since Scripture teaches that the Antichrist would be revealed and gives the marks by which the Antichrist is to be recognized (2 Th 2:6,8), and since this prophecy has been clearly fulfilled in the history and development of the Roman Papacy, it is Scripture which reveals that the Papacy is the Antichrist."

http://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/doctrinal-statements/antichrist/

KEPLER · Aug 27, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
Please provide proof to back up this statement.

According to this Wikipedia page on Confessional Lutheranism WELS does not agree with LCMS that the anti-Christ is "the office": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_Lutheranism#Views_on_the_Pope

Here is the quote from the section on the Pope: "The Missouri Synod teaches "Antichrist" refers to the office, and not to the person, while WELS disagrees."

As I tell all of my undergrads at the beginning of every semester, Wikipedia is not an authoritative source on ANYTHING. Check the link that Becky gave you, check the WELS website, or look at the materials available on Northwestern Publishing House's website (NPH is WELS' publishing house).

K

GracetotheHumble · Aug 28, 2015

KEPLER said:
As I tell all of my undergrads at the beginning of every semester, Wikipedia is not an authoritative source on ANYTHING. Check the link that Becky gave you, check the WELS website, or look at the materials available on Northwestern Publishing House's website (NPH is WELS' publishing house).

K

I checked the link on the WELS website she gave me and I didn't read anything that made me believe that WELS does not hold the person the Pope to be anti-Christ.

GracetotheHumble · Aug 28, 2015

WirSindBettler said:
If the LCMS says the papacy is anti-Christ, you can bet the farm that WELS will agree.

I don't think you are quite following the conversation, you better go back and reread the thread.

WirSindBettler · Aug 28, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
I don't think you are quite following the conversation, you better go back and reread the thread.

Awfully kind to assume that I hadn't read the thread. I had.

Athanasias · Aug 28, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
No, but if you are true to the Lutheran Confessions you would believe that the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist.

The Pope himself or the office of Papacy itself?

GracetotheHumble · Aug 28, 2015

WirSindBettler said:
Awfully kind to assume that I hadn't read the thread. I had.

Well you didn't follow the conversation. We weren't debating if WELS believed the Papacy to be anti-Christ.

We were debating whether they believe it's the office or the person.

GracetotheHumble · Aug 28, 2015

Athanasias said:
The Pope himself or the office of Papacy itself?

Well that's the debate we are having.

LCMS believe it's only the office while WELS seems to believe it's both the office and the person.

Athanasias · Aug 28, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
Well that's the debate we are having.

LCMS believe it's only the office while WELS seems to believe it's both the office and the person.

Oh Interesting. Thanks man for that info. I always wandered about that. As a Catholic this may be where we differ theologically. I can see certain Popes(individuals in the office itself) that are anti-Christ or at least acted like it(like Urban VI or Boniface VIII) as we have I am sure some Popes in Hell (as Dante even puts a few of them in there). Its hard to believe that some like John Paul II would be in hell though or the anti-Christ in my opinion. But we believe the office itself is divine in nature and a fulfillment of the Jewish office of Davidic prime minister. At least that is our take.

GracetotheHumble · Aug 28, 2015

Athanasias said:
Oh Interesting. Thanks man for that info. I always wandered about that. As a Catholic this may be where we differ theologically. I can see certain Popes(individuals in the office itself) that are anti-Christ or at least acted like it(like Urban VI or Boniface VIII) as we have I am sure some Popes in Hell (as Dante even puts a few of them in there). Its hard to believe that some like John Paul II would be in hell though or the anti-Christ in my opinion. But we believe the office itself is divine in nature and a fulfillment of the Jewish office of Davidic prime minister. At least that is our take.

A big problem we have with Popes is the fact that they claim infallibility and to be the vicar of Christ thus usurping the very place of Christ himself.

Athanasias · Aug 28, 2015

GracetotheHumble said:
A big problem we have with Popes is the fact that they claim infallibility and to be the vicar of Christ thus usurping the very place of Christ himself.

I appreciate this good dialog thank you. Oh I see what you mean. Well in our understanding the infallible claim does not ursurp Christ. It rather points towards Christ. In our view it is not the man himself who sits on the Papal throne that makes himself by his own power infallible, but rather Christ and the Holy Spirit who protect the office and give it an infallible charism so even if a sinner is in office(as all have sinned) he can still be protected by God from teaching formal error or as we call it the gift of infalliblity(Kinda like the way the Holy Spirit guided and protected St. Peter and Paul to write infallible truth even through they both sinned).

Because the only way they could be infallible is if Christ and the Holy Spirit are working through them to teach infallible truth. At least that is our take. To me it makes sense given that infallibility means no error can be taught and if Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide his Church into all truth(Jn 16:12-14). The office which we believe is a fulfillment of the Davidic prime ministers office via Matt 16 and Is 22 would logically have this charism as would the whole church in council if the Holy Spirit leads the councils too(Act 15:28). Thats how we see it.

As for the term Vicar. It has a rich meaning and relates back to the Prime ministers meaning of an administrative deputy who has authority that derives from the king and second only to the king. But we also teach all Bishops are vicars in a sense. At least that is our take.

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