Is it morally correct to say that God creates evil according to Isaiah 45:7?

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
.............. There is a contradiction in your belief system here. For on one hand you are saying God is not the author of evil. However, on the other hand you are saying God planned evil (Which would in fact make him the author of evil).
The Bible says not only what you say about God's holiness and the culpability of man in sin. It says a great deal more.

Some of those things you just won't say for some reason. I'm sure you have your reasons. That's between you and God. But it doesn't bother God at all to say them and I agree with what He says.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was sin. That is why the Lord prayed that that sin not be held against them.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." Acts 4:27-28

You say that that makes Him the author of sin. I strongly disagree with you.

I didn't write the book. I just read and teach what it says - all of what it says.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Bible says not only what you say about God's holiness and the culpability of man in sin. It says a great deal more.

Some of those things you just won't say for some reason. I'm sure you have your reasons. That's between you and God. But it doesn't bother God at all to say them and I agree with what He says.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was sin. That is why the Lord prayed that that sin not be held against them.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." Acts 4:27-28

You say that that makes Him the author of sin. I strongly disagree with you.

I didn't write the book. I just read and teach what it says - all of what it says.

I believe I have explained things openly. So I am not sure exactly what you think I said that I didn't say?

God using evil for His greater glory and good does not mean God had:

(a) Planned that evil to happen.
(b) Approves or agrees with such said evil.

You said that the crucifixion of Jesus was a sin. Yet, the Scriptures say that it pleased God the Father to crush the Son. It was God the Father's plan all along to send the Son so as to save mankind from their sins and so as to provide a mediator between God and man. For Jesus is the Son of God (second person of the Godhead) who was to be our sacrifice and our Heavenly High Priest.

Jesus was in complete agreement with God the Father's plan. In fact, Jesus even told Peter that he was Satan for suggesting that he should not go to the cross to be crucified. The men who crucified Jesus had made the free will choice to sin by crucifying him. God being aware of what their future free will choice to do evil is a sin that falls upon them and not God. God is able to use their free will choice to do evil for a greater purpose, or plan for good (Which was to save mankind from their sins). God is aware of man's future free will choices in what they are going to do. So God is always one step ahead of man because He is sovereign over time and knows exactly what to do before it happens. This does not mean God planned sin to happen. These evil men had already made their choice to do evil. God being aware of their evil choices in knowing what they were going to do (used their evil for a greater purpose). This does not mean God purposely made these men to do evil. This does not mean God had planned evil himself. God being aware of what man was going to do and then manipulting the evil for His good does not equate with God planning evil to take place. If I plan to kill someone, that would make me evil. If I plan for an evil situation to happen (even if I am not directly involved, that would also make me evil). God is good. God is love; And there is no darkness in God. God does not tempt anyone to sin. Nor does God make beings that are specifically set out to sin (As if that was their only choice). Nor does God use free willed beings in such a way to bring about an evil situation that He planned. God cannot be in harmony with evil. For what fellowship does light have with darkness? God can simply use the evil that is already in existence from willed creatures for His greater purpose and glory. This does not mean God plans evil or decrees evil. God merely is aware of the future and uses both good and evil for the greater good of His holy and righteous plans. God cannot and will not ever plan for evil to take place. Man is the author evil. Man is the one who chooses evil (not God).
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In other words, lets say I am a time traveler and I can try to manipulate events in the future so as to bring about the most good. Let's say there is one event I cannot change. A man named Charles in the future chooses to kill a particular person named Martha every time. This event always stays the same no matter what I do to manipulate the time line. However, if I manipulate events so as to bring new people into Martha's life so as to draw them closer to God (by Martha's death), then I would be accomplishing my mission of doing good. However, in no way would I be planning for the evil to happen, though. I know that the course of history of the man named Charles is always going to do this one evil thing no matter what I do to try and manipulate the timeline. Charles is going to kill Martha. I can't stop it from happening. So the next best thing I can do is bring about a greater good by focusing on those who will be effected (or respond) in a good way by such said evil.

My being aware of Charle's evil of murdering Martha in no way means I planned for Charles to do evil. Charles made his own choice and he is going to have to live with that choice. I wished Charles had made another choice. But seeing I know the future and what he is going to do (And seeing I could not stop him from killing Martha), I did what I only could do which was to make a bad situation into a good one.

This is how the "Sovereignty of GOD" and the "Sovereignty of Man" works in the Universe. God does not overide man's free will to accomplish his purposes. God merely uses free willed beings and what they choose freely for His greater purpose and plan. God does not hope that anyone does evil or bad things; Nor does God plan for evil to happen. God just simply is aware of certain men's evil choices and he acts accordingly to bring about a greater good by their choice of darkness (that they were already going to make).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The best part about beating one's head against the wall is how good it feels when one stops doing it....

Was your message geared towards me? If so, then please explain how such words apply to what I have said.
 
Upvote 0

Look Up

"What is unseen is eternal"
Jul 16, 2010
928
175
✟16,230.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I believe I have explained things openly. So I am not sure exactly what you think I said that I didn't say?

God using evil for His greater glory and good does not mean God had:

(a) Planned that evil to happen.
(b) Approves or agrees with such said evil.

You said that the crucifixion of Jesus was a sin. Yet, the Scriptures say that it pleased God the Father to crush the Son. It was God the Father's plan all along to send the Son so as to save mankind from their sins and so as to provide a mediator between God and man. For Jesus is the Son of God (second person of the Godhead) who was to be our sacrifice and our Heavenly High Priest.

Jesus was in complete agreement with God the Father's plan. In fact, Jesus even told Peter that he was Satan for suggesting that he should not go to the cross to be crucified. The men who crucified Jesus had made the free will choice to sin by crucifying him. God being aware of what their future free will choice to do evil is a sin that falls upon them and not God. God is able to use their free will choice to do evil for a greater purpose, or plan for good (Which was to save mankind from their sins). God is aware of man's future free will choices in what they are going to do. So God is always one step ahead of man because He is sovereign over time and knows exactly what to do before it happens. This does not mean God planned sin to happen. These evil men had already made their choice to do evil. God being aware of their evil choices in knowing what they were going to do (used their evil for a greater purpose). This does not mean God purposely made these men to do evil. This does not mean God had planned evil himself. God being aware of what man was going to do and then manipulting the evil for His good does not equate with God planning evil to take place. If I plan to kill someone, that would make me evil. If I plan for an evil situation to happen (even if I am not directly involved, that would also make me evil). God is good. God is love; And there is no darkness in God. God does not tempt anyone to sin. Nor does God make beings that are specifically set out to sin (As if that was their only choice). Nor does God use free willed beings in such a way to bring about an evil situation that He planned. God cannot be in harmony with evil. For what fellowship does light have with darkness? God can simply use the evil that is already in existence from willed creatures for His greater purpose and glory. This does not mean God plans evil or decrees evil. God merely is aware of the future and uses both good and evil for the greater good of His holy and righteous plans. God cannot and will not ever plan for evil to take place. Man is the author evil. Man is the one who chooses evil (not God).

While the above reiterates your position, much of which we can probably agree on, a relevant part still stands in contradiction to the NT passage to which the above constitutes a response, particularly to the portion Knox "bolded" in font (Acts 4:27-28 in context esp. of the cited passage from Ps. 2). The Ps. 2 nations, here prophetically applied to contemporaries of Jesus (Herod, Pontius Pilate etc.), "arrogantly rage," "think in vain," and "assemble themselves against" Jesus, "to do whatever your [i.e., God's] hand and plan had predestined [same word as in Rom. 8:29] to take place [especially His death and what ensued thereafter]."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Aijalon

Sayin' it like it is
Jun 4, 2012
964
55
✟17,356.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Define Evil
It also may be worth pointing out that God did not say he creates wickedness, which is different Hebrew word.

Darkness has no meaning with out light (absence of it)

Evil has no meaning without Good (absence of it)

So if God withdraws his good favor from Israel so that evil can prevail over them, he can quite rightly say he is bringing evil. God alone is the one that decides who wins and loses on the earth, so .... who is DOING the evil?

Is God also credited with DOING evil? I would say no, otherwise that makes God wicked.

Wickedness is the agent doing evil, not God. Wickedness is a motivation, but Evil is a "thing" which is expressed by it (an event, object, action)

Isaiah 47:10
And thou art confident in thy wickedness, Thou hast said, `There is none seeing me,' Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, It is turning thee back, And thou sayest in thy heart, `I [am], and none else.'


Isaiah 58:4
Lo, for strife and debate ye fast, And to smite with the fist of wickedness, Ye fast not as [to]-day, To sound in the high place your voice.


Isaiah 58:6
Is not this the fast that I chose -- To loose the bands of wickedness, To shake off the burdens of the yoke, And to send out the oppressed free, And every yoke ye draw off?


Jeremiah 2:19
Instruct thee doth thy wickedness, And thy backslidings reprove thee, Know and see that an evil and a bitter thing [Is] thy forsaking Jehovah thy God, And My fear not being on thee, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah of Hosts.
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I believe I have explained things openly. So I am not sure exactly what you think I said that I didn't say?
You will not say exactly what the Word of God says about how God predestined the sins that killed Jesus. You will not simply say that they were "free choices of men to sin" made by the creature AND that they were predestined to happen by God Himself. It's not hard to say. Just say it.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." Acts 4:27-28

You also wrongly say that God's doing that very thing would make Him the author of sin. I strongly disagree with you.

God predestined sins. Man is the author of those sins and is responsible for those sins and will be judged accordingly. God remains holy through it all and is not to be accused of being the author of sins - AS YOU, YOURSELF, WRONGLY CHARGE THAT HE MUST BE.
You said that the crucifixion of Jesus was a sin............Yet, the Scriptures say that it pleased God the Father to crush the Son..................................
Jesus clearly identified it as sin when He prayed for God to forgive them for that sin.

God decrees only good. But He carries out that good through evil.

It's all through the Bible. I don't know how anyone could miss it.

God's crushing His Son to provide a basis for mercy and grace to be extended to His creation is altogether good.

Men crucifying the Son of God was evil.

Both good and evil were occurring at the same time as per God's chosen method of providential control in that circumstance as well as in many other instances both from the Word of God and from the world in general.

The concurrent actions of God and men is something that I have talked about at length. If this is something new to you, you might want to read a few of my posts elsewhere.

Other instances just for starters, since this is something new to you apparently, would be the sinful words of Caiaphas the priest, the sinful actions of Joseph's brothers, prophetic utterances in general as well as in the use of tongues, and last but not least the writing of the scriptures themselves.

All of these are instances of the concurrent actions of God and man. Some are sinful actions on the part of man and some are not. All of the concurrent actions undertaken by God are righteous even though they may be carried out by the sinful actions of the creation.

This is really basic stuff by the way.

The other things you wrote are basic truths as well. Why do you feel that it is necessary to hold forth a lengthy presentation concerning the basics of the faith when I have already said that I know them and agree with them?

Regarding the Charles and Martha post - you are not God - God is God.

As with Lucifer in the book of Job - God has the final say as to what Charles can and cannot do.

For Heaven's sake - this is really basic.

James tells us that you can't even go to such and such a town, do a little business, and make a profit unless it is God's will for you to do so.

You say, "God does not override man's free will to accomplish his purposes."

Absolute nonsense!

God restrains evil in this world every day exactly so that any evil will only accomplish His purposes. God even holds the hearts of kings in the palm of His hand like rivers of water. He turns them wherever He wishes.

Your zeal for staying away from the concept of predestination is driving you to stray from the truth in many areas. You are denying some of the most basic of principles taught in the Word of God.

You seem to be arguing to be arguing.

I tire now of beating my head against a wall. I need a little rest. I'll leave you now to whatever your agenda is.

*** OH - IN CASE YOU MISSED IT ---- "One more time in answer to the question posed in your original post - I do not believe that it is correct to state that God created evil.

I do, however, believe that it is correct to say that He has always planned for evil to play a part in His plan for the age"
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Was your message geared towards me? If so, then please explain how such words apply to what I have said.


Just a simple observation. Do you think that everything posted in the thread is about you?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You will not say exactly what the Word of God says about how God predestined the sins that killed Jesus. You will not simply say that they were "free choices of men to sin" made by the creature AND that they were predestined to happen by God Himself. It's not hard to say. Just say it.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." Acts 4:27-28

You also wrongly say that God's doing that very thing would make Him the author of sin. I strongly disagree with you.

God predestined sins. Man is the author of those sins and is responsible for those sins and will be judged accordingly. God remains holy through it all and is not to be accused of being the author of sins - AS YOU, YOURSELF, WRONGLY CHARGE THAT HE MUST BE.

Jesus clearly identified it as sin when He prayed for God to forgive them for that sin.

God decrees only good. But He carries out that good through evil.

It's all through the Bible. I don't know how anyone could miss it.

God's crushing His Son to provide a basis for mercy and grace to be extended to His creation is altogether good.

Men crucifying the Son of God was evil.

Both good and evil were occurring at the same time as per God's chosen method of providential control in that circumstance as well as in many other instances both from the Word of God and from the world in general.

The concurrent actions of God and men is something that I have talked about at length. If this is something new to you, you might want to read a few of my posts elsewhere.

Other instances just for starters, since this is something new to you apparently, would be the sinful words of Caiaphas the priest, the sinful actions of Joseph's brothers, prophetic utterances in general as well as in the use of tongues, and last but not least the writing of the scriptures themselves.

All of these are instances of the concurrent actions of God and man. Some are sinful actions on the part of man and some are not. All of the concurrent actions undertaken by God are righteous even though they may be carried out by the sinful actions of the creation.

This is really basic stuff by the way.

The other things you wrote are basic truths as well. Why do you feel that it is necessary to hold forth a lengthy presentation concerning the basics of the faith when I have already said that I know them and agree with them?

Regarding the Charles and Martha post - you are not God - God is God.

As with Lucifer in the book of Job - God has the final say as to what Charles can and cannot do.

For Heaven's sake - this is really basic.

James tells us that you can't even go to such and such a town, do a little business, and make a profit unless it is God's will for you to do so.

You say, "God does not override man's free will to accomplish his purposes."

Absolute nonsense!

God restrains evil in this world every day exactly so that any evil will only accomplish His purposes. God even holds the hearts of kings in the palm of His hand like rivers of water. He turns them wherever He wishes.

Your zeal for staying away from the concept of predestination is driving you to stray from the truth in many areas. You are denying some of the most basic of principles taught in the Word of God.

You seem to be arguing to be arguing.

I tire now of beating my head against a wall. I need a little rest. I'll leave you now to whatever your agenda is.

*** OH - IN CASE YOU MISSED IT ---- "One more time in answer to the question posed in your original post - I do not believe that it is correct to state that God created evil.

I do, however, believe that it is correct to say that He has always planned for evil to play a part in His plan for the age"

Yes, God was aware that evil was going to take place in the universe He was going to create. God also had a plan to counter-act that evil with His good. But God did not declare that evil must be as if it was His desired will or plan for man to do (As if He wanted man to do evil). God does not decree, will, or plan evil. God is not the author of confusion or darkness. Those creatures or "beings" that would choose to do evil of their own free will in this life are already condemned by their own actions. God cannot agree with their evil because He is Holy (even though God can use their own evil against them). Yes, the Scriptures say that God has declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), but that is merely God's declaration that He is eternal and is aware of the future with 100% pin-point accuracy. Nowhere does it say God approves of all things that man does within the future.

Now, you say that God did not create evil and yet you say that He decreed evil. This is a contradiction that you cannot adequately explain without getting frustrated. See, I have no problem and I am at peace in what I believe the Scriptures plainly say on this matter. But to "decree" something means one is putting their stamp of approval on that "decree." God could have never put his stamp of approval upon man's sin. That is just not possible.

Your biggest hurtle is always going to be 2 Peter 3:9. God's will or desire is expressed clearly in that verse and yet.... that will or desire is not going to come to pass for the Lord. For it is God's will and desire that nobody should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But do we see that will or desire being accomplished despite man's free will? No, of course not. So no. I do not believe God's will or desire over-rides man's free will in every occasion and instance. There are also many things man does that are evil that God does not want them to do. God cannot approve of anyone's evil. Yet, man has the free will to do it, anyways. Can God later stop man from doing certain things? Yes. Of course. But there is also the Sovereignty of man that you seem to be ignoring, though. Yes, God has a plan that can use man's evil for His good. The story of Joseph makes this very clear (of which I have been aware of for a very long time - See Genesis 50:20). For Romans 8:28 says all things work together for good to those who love God. So God can use both good and evil for His ultimate purpose or plan. But God did not decree evil or purposedly desire for man to do evil as if that is what He really wanted man to do. God cannot agree with evil so as to decree it. God would have preferred even Adam to obey Him and do that which was right and good. But Adam simply chose of his own free will to not do so. For if God made Adam to specifically sin as if that was his only choice, then it would mean God decreed or planned for evil to happen all along; And Adam and man could not be responsible for their sin condition if it was programmed into their DNA to specifically do only that (As if it was some kind of unescapable choice).


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
But God did not decree evil or purposedly desire for man to do evil as if that is what He really wanted man to do. God cannot agree with evil so as to decree it. God would have preferred even Adam to obey Him and do that which was right and good. But Adam simply chose of his own free will to not do so. For if God made Adam to specifically sin as if that was his only choice, then it would mean God decreed or planned for evil to happen all along; And Adam and man could not be responsible for their sin condition if it was programmed into their DNA to specifically do only that (As if it was some kind of unescapable choice).
There is no doubt in my mind that God is grieved by every sin committed by men. He was grieved to tears over the fact that they would not come to Him in faith. You don't need to lecture me on the heart of God - even if I can't fathom it completely. Neither can you.

I have no idea where you get these ideas such as the "programmed into their DNA to do only that" (sin) thing.:scratch:

I have said all along that men have free will to either sin or not sin.

I have no idea why you are accusing me of teaching that Adam (or any men) had only one choice - namely to sin.

What God decreed was that man would have free will to choose and that exactly what God knew would happen if He gave man that choice would be allowed to happen.

It was indeed part of His plan for the age (IMO) that these known results would be controlled throughout this age to work perfectly toward a perfect end that He has in mind.

All of your needless squirming around with terminology and such doesn't change the fact that God has had a plan all along and that that plan includes the sins men that men would do and are doing of their own free will.

You can post until the cows come home and it's just whistling through the grave yard IMO.

The problem of evil is something that you and I both, and indeed all Christians, must wrestle with.

You may well choose to be a little more careful about how you say things so that God won't be offended. I'm not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing around though. I think God can and has defended Himself well enough for all of us.

So long as I am careful to say that sin and evil can and does only proceed directly from the creation and that God remains righteous through it all - the Holy Spirit and I are just fine with it.

You sure are spending a lot of time debating semantics with someone who basically believes the same as you do when all is said and done.

I say tomaito and you say tomato - let's just let it go.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0