The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

Regarding the miracle at Cana, did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice?

  • water into wine

  • water into grape juice

  • I don't know


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Then I recommend that you hit the bars and preach against public drunkenness. What we are discussing--Holy Communion--has none of the characteristics you are going on about, and it is a totally different matter.

No worshippers are scandalized or tempted because they see another member at the Communion rail, I assure you.

But if you think your theory is sound, let's consider all the other actions that could cause sin in an onlooker. You ought not post online because someone might become addicted to these discussions and jeopardize his family obligations. You ought not speak in public lest someone be tempted to start gossiping. You ought not wear colored clothes because someone seeing you might be tempted to be vain in his or her attire, wearing revealing or gaudy clothes.

And so on. Try as you have done, you can't squeeze a serious point about wine in Communion out of the "what ifs" you've raised.

I am not assured by what you say. It is statistical probability and a Biblical concept that man can be tempted just by seeing something.
 
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Albion

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The problem is that Institional Churches do not promote or help the body of Christ because they put all the pressure on one man and they focus their income on paying him and in keeping a building running (When such a thing is not Biblical and is not needed).

What does this have to do with Communion wine? (and BTW, many "institutional churches" do not rely upon just one man. It's not inherent in the "institutional church," nor was it so in ancient times).
 
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Albion

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I am not assured by what you say.
Then I am sorry that you are not. It's true what I've told you, just the same.

It is statistical probability

No, it's not. It's a possibility, but it's not a statistical probability by any means. It's barely more than a theoretical possibility.
 
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Rajni

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For it would be immoral for Jesus to create an intoxicating drug whereby it would be recorded in Scripture openly for all to see so as to encourage all future generations of drunks to think it was okay to continue to drink alcohol.
This goes back to my question in post #366:

Being that God is eternal, don't you think that if He had that much of a
problem with something as mundane as fermented grape juice that He
would have simply prevented the possibility of it existing?

He’s God. He knew upon creating these things how they’d
be used. He could have easily constructed it so as to prevent
such 'abuses' from occurring.


-
 
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Then I am sorry that you are not. It's true what I've told you, just the same.



No, it's not. It's a possibility, but it's not a statistical probability by any means. It's barely more than a theoretical possibility.

Well, I didn't need to look it up to know it is true. Like I said, it is by pure statistical probability alone that such things have happened already. Adam and Eve were just tempted by looking at a piece of fruit (That God commanded them not to eat thereof). If something is in front of you all the time that tempts you, then logic dictates that man can be tempted to do bad with that thing he is tempted with (just by looking upon it with his own two eyes).

Anyways, if you do not believe statistical probablities and being tempted to do wrong by looking upon something, then maybe you will believe this testimony said by another:

"There are Vicars who are drinking alcoholics, their ministry (and everything else in their life) is at best chaotic and at worst disastrous. Their drinking has developed in ministry. I know of no Priest who was ordained whilst drinking alcoholically, in fact I know of at least 2 who have been withdrawn from training. You describe a high-functioning alcoholic, they always crash."​

Source:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=023399
 
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What does this have to do with Communion wine? (and BTW, many "institutional churches" do not rely upon just one man. It's not inherent in the "institutional church," nor was it so in ancient times).

When I say the pressure is on one man in Institutional Churches, I am talking about the Pastor. He is the church's leader and he has to contend with a church board of elders and make sure that the church building and all it's activities are functioning properly. Yes, he has folks help with this, but the Pastor oversees these things. The pressure is all on him to make sure that the programs are running right, and the church advertising is running right, and the church building is running right and that his flock is operating like he desire them to. When you go into an Institutional Church, one man (usually the Pastor) speaks while everyone else is expected to be silent (As if they were all stupid or something). Nowhere do we see this portrayed in Scripture. A person walks into a building (that you call a church even though the believers are the actual church) and they see a one man show. All eyes are on him. He is putting on a performance. Yes there is the praise and worship team, but they defer to the Pastor and his leading. But this is not what we see in the early church in the New Testament, though. It's the exact opposite.
 
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Albion

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When I say the pressure is on one man in Institutional Churches, I am talking about the Pastor. He is the church's leader and he has to contend with a church board of elders and make sure that the church building and all it's activities are functioning properly. Yes, he has folks help with this, but the Pastor oversees these things. The pressure is all on him to make sure that the programs are running right, and the church advertising is running right, and the church building is running right and that his flock is operating like he desire them to. When you go into an Institutional Church, one man (usually the Pastor) speaks while everyone else is expected to be silent (As if they were all stupid or something). Nowhere do we see this portrayed in Scripture. A person walks into a building (that you call a church even though the believers are the actual church) and they see a one man show. All eyes are on him. He is putting on a performance. Yes there is the praise and worship team, but they defer to the Pastor and his leading. But this is not what we see in the early church in the New Testament, though. It's the exact opposite.

I think there was a thread about that not long ago.
 
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Albion

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Anyways, if you do not believe statistical probablities and being tempted to do wrong by looking upon something, then maybe you will believe this testimony said by another:

"There are Vicars who are drinking alcoholics, their ministry (and everything else in their life) is at best chaotic and at worst disastrous. Their drinking has developed in ministry. I know of no Priest who was ordained whilst drinking alcoholically, in fact I know of at least 2 who have been withdrawn from training. You describe a high-functioning alcoholic, they always crash."​

Had you been looking for something more off-topic than that, you might have had a long search. The fact that some priests/pastors are alcoholics doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. Nor does how the "institutional church" ought to be administered. The topic, again, is "The Wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice."
 
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This goes back to my question in post #366:

Being that God is eternal, don't you think that if He had that much of a
problem with something as mundane as fermented grape juice that He
would have simply prevented the possibility of it existing?

He’s God. He knew upon creating these things how they’d
be used. He could have easily constructed it so as to prevent
such 'abuses' from occurring.


-

How can alcohol (Which is a drug) that destroys millions of lives each year be considered as mundane to God? He has given many warnings against such a drug even in Scripture. For Scriptures says...Wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging and he that is deceived by it is not wise. Wine bites like a serpent.

The Israelites were even told not to look within the cup while it was red and moved itself aright.

The Bible says, For who has sorrow? Who has woe? He that seeks after wine. Woe unto him who gives his neighbor strong drink. Wine is not for kings.

Jesus is a king; And we are kings and priests.

Scripture also says drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Drunkenness is a result of alcohol; And it only takes one glass of alcohol to become addicted and become a drunk (Which is sinful). For it is written that the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but joy in the Holy Ghost.
 
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Had you been looking for something more off-topic than that, you might have had a long search. The fact that some priests/pastors are alcoholics doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. Nor does how the "institutional church" ought to be administered. The topic, again, is "The Wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice."

The point of the quote is that they were not alcoholics until they were ordained and they partook of communion as vicars. This is just one of the many reasons why Jesus did not make alcoholic wine. He knew that if he would have made alcoholic wine as a part of his miracle it would be giving future generations of alcoholics a green like to slip back into their drinking again. It would lead religious men who would have not normally have touched alcohol to be tempted by it in a wrong way. But hey... if it is good enough for Jesus and his buddies, it has gotta be good for them, right? No. Most certaintly not.
 
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Albion

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The point of the quote is that they were not alcoholics until they were ordained and they partook of communion as vicars.
The quotation doesn't say that. I thought you were misunderstanding the meaning, and this would seem to confirm it.

There is nothing in that quotation that says they became alcoholics BECAUSE of Holy Communion. Being in ministry as a vicar is a tough and often lonely life, which is the background to many people (of whatever profession) becoming alcoholics.

This is just one of the many reasons why Jesus did not make alcoholic wine.
He did at Cana.
 
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katerinah1947

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Hi,

So it looks like it is wine, that is what Jesus made at The Wedding Feast at Cana. And the really cool part is that He did not have to do it that way. His mom asked Him, to do something as they were running out of wine. And, when Jesus asked her what thier running out of wine has to do with Him, meaning they understand each other perfectly, He says to her, my time has not come. She then talks to the servants.

How cool is that, in a totally mother to son moment, she tells her son what he is to do, by telling the servants, to follow his every command.

Still He could have said, go outside over there, and you will find a lot of wine. He could have done that. He could have refused His mothers commands. This did not have to happen, the way it did, and the subject of new wine, Jesus, and the old wine, The Law, did not have to be talked about then, and in that way.

Instead, and for whatever non stated Biblical Reason, he tells the servants to fill up 6 or so large jugs with water, and then have the Wine Steward, whatever that is back then, taste it.

Again, He could have made the wine of any quality at all. It could have been worse wine than they had. And if that happened, the wine steward would never have spoken up, probably.

And in a total statement about Jesus, the best being saved for last, Jesus starts his earthly ministry, by outing himself, by choosing to out himself, or by God The Father somehow, making it known to him that yes, this is the time, He outed himself with that miracle.

Neat.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
 
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Albion

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Instead, and for whatever non stated Biblical Reason, he tells the servants to fill up 6 or so large jugs with water, and then have the Wine Steward, whatever that is back then, taste it.

Again, He could have made the wine of any quality at all. It could have been worse wine than they had. And if that happened, the wine steward would never have spoken up, probably.

And in a total statement about Jesus, the best being saved for last, Jesus starts his earthly ministry, by outing himself, by choosing to out himself, or by God The Father somehow, making it known to him that yes, this is the time, He outed himself with that miracle.

Neat.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

:thumbsup: We don't usually look at the event in that way, do we? Thanks for your perspective.
 
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prodromos

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Sorry. I don't recognize that book as the Word of God.
Of course you don't, but the Church has since its beginning and it is still considered Canon by the Ethiopian Jews.
If you are referring to it as a historical souce that lines up with other historical documents and the Bible, then that's fine. But I would at least need to hear a mention of those other sources.
Historically, it has been considered Scripture and only recently have some removed it from their bibles
 
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I think in a conversation like this, or any conversation really wherein particulars of scripture are under debate, if someone says they are taught by the spirit while they go against written scripture that was given by the spirit, one has to ask that individual to consider asking themselves; what spirit would be teaching me to teach contrary to what the holy spirit gave in the scriptures?

The Bible is full of scripture that warns against alcoholism. Strong drink, because there was more than just wine to imbibe in Biblical times, and dependency on that or wine was forbidden.
Wine wouldn't be forbidden because as has been discussed pure water wasn't always available. And not everyone who drank wine in Jesus time, including Jesus who passed wine around at the last supper, were alcoholics simply because they drank wine.

What does scripture say?
Anyone who claims they're taught by the spirit and they argue against what the holy spirit first inspired in the scriptures is wrong!
When the words of the Lord say do not take away nor add to the writings in this book he's not talking about just what is written! But what is said and meant to be understood as. Someone interpolating scripture, (Adding their own version), are in violation of the Lord's warning. If that doesn't tell them that spirit that's teaching them to do that is not the Lord's maybe that's their burden to bear. No one else has to accept what is not of God being espoused as such by someone that doesn't know the difference.

Grape Juice!
Please! Show it in the scriptures or stop teaching false words that aren't of God.
 
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The quotation doesn't say that. I thought you were misunderstanding the meaning, and this would seem to confirm it.

There is nothing in that quotation that says they became alcoholics BECAUSE of Holy Communion. Being in ministry as a vicar is a tough and often lonely life, which is the background to many people (of whatever profession) becoming alcoholics.

That's not the way it is supposed to be, though. Believers are supposed to have fellowship. This just one of the many reasons why I think that the church gathering in houses so as to fellowship is superior compared to Institutional Churches. I say this because whenever we do something in the Word of God (It always turns out for the best if we are seeking to please Him) versus say trying to follow some man made tradition or what we would prefer to do instead.

Besides, a believer has Jesus and they are never technically alone. For a believer is busy walking and talking with the LORD if they do indeed have a relationship with Him.

He did at Cana.

Not a chance. God is good. For Habakkuk says woe unto him who gives his neighbor strong drink.
 
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I think in a conversation like this, or any conversation really wherein particulars of scripture are under debate, if someone says they are taught by the spirit while they go against written scripture that was given by the spirit, one has to ask that individual to consider asking themselves; what spirit would be teaching me to teach contrary to what the holy spirit gave in the scriptures?

The Bible is full of scripture that warns against alcoholism. Strong drink, because there was more than just wine to imbibe in Biblical times, and dependency on that or wine was forbidden.
Wine wouldn't be forbidden because as has been discussed pure water wasn't always available. And not everyone who drank wine in Jesus time, including Jesus who passed wine around at the last supper, were alcoholics simply because they drank wine.

What does scripture say?
Anyone who claims they're taught by the spirit and they argue against what the holy spirit first inspired in the scriptures is wrong!
When the words of the Lord say do not take away nor add to the writings in this book he's not talking about just what is written! But what is said and meant to be understood as. Someone interpolating scripture, (Adding their own version), are in violation of the Lord's warning. If that doesn't tell them that spirit that's teaching them to do that is not the Lord's maybe that's their burden to bear. No one else has to accept what is not of God being espoused as such by someone that doesn't know the difference.

Grape Juice!
Please! Show it in the scriptures or stop teaching false words that aren't of God.

First, I shown in two dictionaries (one very old and one recent) that the word "wine" can mean an unfermented wine (grape juice) or the juice of grapes. Second, Isaiah 65:8 says "new wine" is found in the cluster of the grape. Now, last I checked but the substance inside the cluster of grapes is not originally alcoholic.

Third, Scripture warns against just the use of alcohol and not only the abuse of it. Here are 33 warnings in Scripture against just the use of alcohol taken from an article.

1) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

2) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

3) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

4) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

5) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

6) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

7) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

8) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

9) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

10) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

11) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

12) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

13) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

14) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

15) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

16) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol is habit forming.

17) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

18) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)

19) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

20) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

21) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

22) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

23) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

24) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

25) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

26) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

27) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

28) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

29) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.

30) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

31) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

32) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

33) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source:
http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm
 
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Of course you don't, but the Church has since its beginning and it is still considered Canon by the Ethiopian Jews.

Historically, it has been considered Scripture and only recently have some removed it from their bibles

First, it's in the Catholic Bible and I do not agree with the Catholic religion. Second, the Apocrypha contradicts the Word of God in many places. But that is another discussion for another time.
 
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Around and around the mulberry bush. It's not been shown that Christ made grape juice from water. The context doesn't make sense that way. You've saved the best grape juice till last!?

As I said before there are three types of wine. The Jews drank a wine that was very low in alcoholic content (So it was the flavor they were interested in). Jesus's wine was just purely delicious by comparison (and it had no intoxicating effects whatsoever). Also, the word "wine" can refer to either fermented or unfermented wine according to the dictionary. Besides, they did not speak English back then.
 
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