Do you think Trump will be a better President than Obama?

Obama or Trump?

  • Obama

    Votes: 24 61.5%
  • Trump

    Votes: 15 38.5%

  • Total voters
    39
  • Poll closed .

Willtor

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Obama compromised a lot early, but learned over time that the house Republicans weren't interested in compromise, they were doing everything in their power to make Obama's presidency a failure, a priority they put far ahead of the general welfare. Given the obstruction he faced from the opposition party, accomplishing much by working with them wasn't going to be possible. The Republicans made that abundantly clear since day 1 of Obama's administration.

You are exactly right in that for the Affordable Care Act, Obama compromised a lot.

While another person may have handled it better, nothing he could do would change the steadfast opposition he faced by the Republicans during his tenure.

Sure, I buy that. When someone says he has been elected to ensure you accomplish nothing, there is no compromise with such a person. My point is that he's demonstrated, in practice, that he's capable of and willing to compromise.
 
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Willtor

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Very well, but every leader assesses the limits of what he can get away with. That doesn't mean he is given to compromising, as we usually understand that term and which was inherent in the way I worded my point: "unwillingness to give and take, compromise, or negotiate"

That would indicate, I feel confident, exactly what I was referring to.

He gave away the thing he campaigned on. Most of the points in the bill that got passed were based on HEART. Give and take. Mostly give.

Bush went out of his way, even bent over backwards, to try to reach out to Ted Kennedy and other Democrat leaders. He got taken advantage of as his reward, but he did try. I can think of no example of Obama doing anything along these lines, and you seem to have acknowledged it in your comments about "compromise" vs "compromise." What's more, it's clearly unprecedented for the Senate to refuse, simply refuse, to take up hundreds of bills passed by the House and sent on to the Senate, to refuse amendments on the floor, to try to govern by fiat, and etc. Obama hardly ever holds a press conference. Previous presidents of both parties felt almost obliged to do such, even when they knew they were going to be raked over the coals by the press corps. Obama went almost two years (I think it was) without holding one and now has a few only if he wants to announce something. His appointees refuse to answer legal summonses issues by Congress. When was that accepted before? And he again, with the Iran treaty, refuses to let the Congress see the whole of the contents--not unlike the ACA. Transparency? Hardly.

Press conferences. Where are you getting your data about this?

Summonses -- I'd like to hear more. I don't accept that. I do recall that happening in the Bush administration, so you're right that it's never been accepted by Democrats before, but it's hardly unprecedented.

Iran nuclear deal. Again, where are you getting your data about this?

---

You seem to be using somebody's talking points. I don't know whose. It doesn't matter. Why not look into these things for yourself? Google is your friend.
 
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whatbogsends

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Sure, I buy that. When someone says he has been elected to ensure you accomplish nothing, there is no compromise with such a person. My point is that he's demonstrated, in practice, that he's capable of and willing to compromise.

I agree with you. I was explaining why he might appear to be non-compromising.

The right wing rhetoric that Obama was uncompromising started well before Obama even took office. From the moment he was elected, all sights were set on the community organizing Kenyan born, secret Muslim, dictator to be. All of this while the economy was still reeling from a major recession - which many Republicans attempted to post facto blame Obama for creating even though it happened during the previous administration.

I'm disappointed in Obama's presidency, but understand that he faced enormous opposition, moreso than any other president in recent history.
 
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Albion

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He gave away the thing he campaigned on.
You can say that...but it wasn't as a result of any negotiating or compromising (except as settling for less than you hoped for might loosely be called "compromising." That, however, is to compromise with yourself. It's not what we were discussing).

Where are you getting your data about this?

Again, where are you getting your data about this?

You seem to be using somebody's talking points.
I'm not.

But your comment seems to suggest that you are unaware of events that took place over the past seven years and were well-publicized. None of this should come as a revelation to you.

You may need to do some researching before just shotgunning this discussion with questions.
 
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Albion

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The right wing rhetoric that Obama was uncompromising started well before Obama even took office. From the moment he was elected, all sights were set on the community organizing Kenyan born, secret Muslim, dictator to be.
All of this is baloney. You are attempting to pass off the feelings of some individuals in society, a political fringe disavowed by the Republican establishment, as being the view of the Republicans in Congress with whom the President had to work with to enact legislation.

There is no truth to that scenario.
 
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Willtor

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You can say that...but it wasn't as a result of any negotiating or compromising (except as settling for less than you hoped for might loosely be called "compromising." That, however, is to compromise with yourself. It's not what we were discussing).

I'm not.

But your comment seems to suggest that you are unaware of events that took place over the past seven years and were well-publicized. None of this should come as a revelation to you.

You may need to do some researching before just shotgunning this discussion with questions.

I... posted links to the data, itself. You even removed them when you quoted my post, so you couldn't have missed them. You say all these things are well-publicized, but you, yourself, can read the Iran nuclear deal. Whoever you're watching that's publicizing these things (however well they're publicizing them) must be lying to you, if you can read it for yourself.
 
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Willtor

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No, you didn't. You posted links dealing with the same subjects, but not about the information about which you're in doubt.

Did you... click on the links?

You said, "Obama hardly ever holds a press conference. Previous presidents of both parties felt almost obliged to do such, even when they knew they were going to be raked over the coals by the press corps. Obama went almost two years (I think it was) without holding one and now has a few only if he wants to announce something."

I posted a link showing that was not so. Obama has held many press conferences every year he's been in office.

You said, "And he again, with the Iran treaty, refuses to let the Congress see the whole of the contents--not unlike the ACA. Transparency? Hardly."

I posted a link to the full text, itself. Clearly, it's not up to Obama to refuse to let them read it, if you can read it.
 
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whatbogsends

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All of this is baloney. You are attempting to pass off the feelings of some individuals in society, a political fringe disavowed by the Republican establishment, as being the view of the Republicans in Congress with whom the President had to work with to enact legislation.

There is no truth to that scenario.

"
On the night of Barack Obama’s inauguration, a group of top GOP luminaries quietly gathered in a Washington steakhouse to lick their wounds and ultimately create the outline of a plan for how to deal with the incoming administration.

The room was filled. It was a who’s who of ranking members who had at one point been committee chairmen, or in the majority, who now wondered out loud whether they were in the permanent minority,” Frank Luntz, who organized the event, told FRONTLINE.

Among them were Senate power brokers Jim DeMint, Jon Kyl and Tom Coburn, and conservative congressmen Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy and Paul Ryan.

After three hours of strategizing, they decided they needed to fight Obama on everything. The new president had no idea what the Republicans were planning.
"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...y/the-republicans-plan-for-the-new-president/
 
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Albion

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"
On the night of Barack Obama’s inauguration, a group of top GOP luminaries quietly gathered in a Washington steakhouse to lick their wounds and ultimately create the outline of a plan for how to deal with the incoming administration.

The room was filled. It was a who’s who of ranking members who had at one point been committee chairmen, or in the majority, who now wondered out loud whether they were in the permanent minority,” Frank Luntz, who organized the event, told FRONTLINE.

Among them were Senate power brokers Jim DeMint, Jon Kyl and Tom Coburn, and conservative congressmen Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy and Paul Ryan.

After three hours of strategizing, they decided they needed to fight Obama on everything. The new president had no idea what the Republicans were planning.
"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...y/the-republicans-plan-for-the-new-president/

Hey. This is nothing special. No matter whose president gets elected, the opposition party conventionally does all it can to thwart his ambitions and promote its own policies. At least since the 1970s, that's been the way, like it or not.

That we can find evidence of this being true doesn't mean squat to the discussion here. What matters, if we could possibly get back to the issue at hand, is whether the president tried to work with the opposition. Bush tried. Obama didn't care to.

It doesn't make any difference whether the Republicans said they were interested in it or not at some inauguration day meeting. And BTW, despite this well-travelled report, the Republicans again and again did try to work with Obama only to be rebuffed and, in some cases, insulted by him for it. Those are the facts.
 
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Jan Volkes

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Hey. This is nothing special. No matter whose president gets elected, the opposition party conventionally does all it can to thwart his ambitions and promote its own policies. At least since the 1970s, that's been the way, like it or not.
That only happens in 'couldn't care less' America, in civilised countries all sides work together for the good of the country
no matter who wins, that does not mean they don't oppose each other but if it's good for the country they all work together,
politics like marriage is a matter of compromise, either way you all do [or should do] what is best for the family.

Hopefully the US won't have to face this problem again for a long time.
 
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rambot

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Well, Obama is well-known for his unwillingness to give and take, compromise, or negotiate with Congressmen, critics, and others who don't agree with him. He's quite abrupt, sarcastic, dismissive, and insulting towards them, both in public and in private.
I followed him more closely at the start of his presidency. A lot of people I know thought he was being far too collaborative and patient. I did not know he was well known for that and the only source that indicate these as personality traits are his DIRECT political opponents and breibart and fox. Do you have some things I could read that describe his character as you do above?

And it's common knowledge that his administration is one of the LEAST transparent in history. Therefore, of all the words you could reasonably have chosen to describe his style, "collaborative" is about as far from reality as any you could have settled on. ;)
I'm ABSOLUTELY positive that each successive administration, from Bush on, will simply get less and less transparent. I think it's a natural progression of your media+news+government relationship. In fact, remember this post, I will e-transfer you 10 Canadian dollars (like, $3.5 American) if the next administration is described as anything other than the least transparent in history.

No joke.
 
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whatbogsends

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I followed him more closely at the start of his presidency. A lot of people I know thought he was being far too collaborative and patient. I did not know he was well known for that and the only source that indicate these as personality traits are his DIRECT political opponents and breibart and fox. Do you have some things I could read that describe his character as you do above?

The right has established two conflicting narratives about Obama.

Domestic Obama: Narcissistic, uncompromising, dictator Obama who listens to no one and does whatever he wants. He is unwilling to negotiate or back down from his desired goal.

International Obama: Conciliatory, meek, soft Obama who bows down to all foreign leaders and consistently capitulates in negotiations. He is unwilling to stick to his guns and be the strong leader America deserves.

These two caricatures that the right has crafted regarding Obama couldn't be more different from each other if they tried, but they don't see the inconsistency in their claims, they see as wholly uncompromising and entirely compromising at the same time.

I'm ABSOLUTELY positive that each successive administration, from Bush on, will simply get less and less transparent. I think it's a natural progression of your media+news+government relationship. In fact, remember this post, I will e-transfer you 10 Canadian dollars (like, $3.5 American) if the next administration is described as anything other than the least transparent in history.

No joke.

I agree with you wholly on this subject.
 
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Albion

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I followed him more closely at the start of his presidency. A lot of people I know thought he was being far too collaborative and patient. I did not know he was well known for that and the only source that indicate these as personality traits are his DIRECT political opponents and breibart and fox.
Oh dear. Now we begin trying to win something by simply stating wishes as if they were facts? I see you as a basically reasonable poster, but to make a comment like that one strikes me as having decided to end the discussion. Perhaps it's just as well.
 
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Well, Obama is well-known for his unwillingness to give and take, compromise, or negotiate with Congressmen, critics, and others who don't agree with him. He's quite abrupt, sarcastic, dismissive, and insulting towards them, both in public and in private.

LOL

This applies to the post I am quoting....

"Now we begin trying to win something by simply stating wishes as if they were facts?"
 
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Albion

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LOL

This applies to the post I am quoting....

"Now we begin trying to win something by simply stating wishes as if they were facts?"

That's the best you can do? I thought the "I'm rubber, you're glue" gambit went out with the sixth grade. ;)
 
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That's the best you can do? I thought the "I'm rubber, you're glue" gambit went out with the sixth grade. ;)
That is not "I'm rubber you're glue" That is using your own words against you, and it is apropos.

We are discussing facts vs. opinions, whereas rubber/glue applies more to insults.

Your attempt to call me childish fails.
 
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