What do Muslims think of the hadith below?

TG123 · Aug 28, 2015

Salaam alaikum. I was wondering what Muslim posters think of the teaching below of Muhammad.

'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As narrated that the Messenger of Allah said:
"If a pellet like this one, and he pointed to one like Al-jumjumah were to be dropped from the heavens to the earth – and it is the distance of traveling five hundred years it would reach the earth before the night-fall. But if it were dropped from the top of the chain it would travel for forty years, day and night, before it would reach its foundation or bottom.” (Hasan)
http://sunnah.com/urn/678930

The hadith has been declared Hasan, meaning this is an authentic teaching of Muhammad. Islamweb, a Muslim scholarly site, has confirmed this to be the case.
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Id=2583423&Option=QuestionId

Muhammad claimed that "the heavens" are 500 years of travel from the earth. Regardless of whether he meant traveling for a person or even traveling at the speed of light, it doesn't make much sense to me. There is a galaxy that is 13.3 billion light years from the earth, which is the furthest one known to us for now.
http://www.space.com...ble-photos.html

Also, given everything we know about how objects in space fall, it is unrealistic that a pellet would fall to earth within a fortnight, after being dropped from a distance that is allegedly 500 years away. A piece of NASA space equipment that was abandoned in 2005 took 6 years to re-enter the earth's atmosphere and fall onto the planet. The article that was written on Tuesday September 20 hypothesized it will fall onto the earth between Thursday and Saturday, it fell on Friday... after three days.
http://www.nasa.gov/...uars/index.html
http://www.telegraph...ing-debris.html

Why would Muhammad have stated that the heavens are 500 years of travel away, when the cosmos is far larger than that? And why make the statement that an object dropped from the distance of 500 years traveling away would hit the earth before the night ended?

I don't mean to be provocative or rude, but I am curious how you would respond to this. Thanks.

Armoured · Aug 28, 2015

The atmosphere is larger than a pellet travelling at 32" per second per second for 500 years???

TG123 · Aug 28, 2015

Thanks for the correction, I meant to write cosmos. :doh:

The dog is awesome. :oldthumbsup:

Armoured · Aug 28, 2015

TG123 said:
Thanks for the correction, I meant to write cosmos. The dog is awesome.

Ah, got it.

TG123 · Aug 28, 2015

Thanks for the correction. Looking forward to hearing some responses from the Muslim posters.

smaneck · Aug 28, 2015

TG123 said:
The hadith has been declared Hasan, meaning this is an authentic teaching of Muhammad.

Actually hasan (or good) makes it a middling category of hadith in terms of authenticity. It is below sahih (or sound.)

TG123 · Aug 28, 2015

It is below sound, but still considered accurate and accepted by most scholars.

Hasan It is a report whose collector is known and its transmitters are well known. It is the most regular hadith, and most scholars accept it, and it is used by the fuqaha generally, meaning that in its isnad there are no narrators that have been charged with lying, nor it is a shadh (irregular). It is of two types:
1. First: a hadith whose isnad is not free from a transmitter who is mastur (of hidden condition) and whose capacity is not realized, but not negligent nor prone to make many mistakes or charged with mendacity. However, a hadith of similar matn might have been narrated from another way, and it is thus excluded from being shadh or munkar (rejected).
2. Second: The narrators must be known for their trustworthiness and honesty, but they do not attain the level of the transmitters of the sahih category in retention and percesion; and what he narrates of reports singularly is not considered as munkar (rejected), nor is the matn irregular (shadh)or defective (mu'allal). So the hasan ahadith is the report transmitted by a reliable ('adl) narrator who is of lesser retentive capacity, but its isnad is continuous and not irregular (shadh) or defective (mu'allal). The hasan hadith is used as proof exactly as the sahih hadith.

http://ahadith.co.uk/whatishadith.php

smaneck · Aug 28, 2015

TG123 said:
It is below sound, but still considered accurate and accepted by most scholars.

Perhaps, but the Muslims here (with the possible exception of Paul) are not scholars and I don't think it reasonable to expect them to defend this kind of hadith. IMO there are flaws in the standard way ahadith are evaluated.

LoveBeingAMuslimah · Aug 28, 2015

TG123 said:
Why would Muhammad have stated that the heavens are 500 years of travel away, when the cosmos is far larger than that? And why make the statement that an object dropped from the distance of 500 years traveling away would hit the earth before the night ended?

Islaam tells us of seven heavens (which are separate from Paradise). The first/lowest heaven includes what we know of as the universe, I believe:

....And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection... (Surah al-Fussilat 41:12)

Maybe the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is saying the nearest boundary of the lowest heaven is a distance of 500 years of travel away or maybe he chose to talk about a seemingly random spot from within this lowest heaven (and this is the place from where the object would've been dropped) even if the entire universe is part of the lowest heaven. Or maybe there is another option that has not come to mind.

As for the distance, you mentioned the speed of light. Well, we go beyond that and say that jinn can be faster than this speed, let alone the angels. We don't know whose travel is referred to, we don't know what speed this traveling would be in, we don't know if each of these years is really 500 years or if it is a different period of time (the Qur'aan tells us that the Day of Judgement will be a day equivalent to that of 50,000 years). This is about the unseen so we don't know much about it.

Allaah knows best.

Hey, this was my 2015th post. I should wait until 2016 to make another one lol.

Robban · Aug 28, 2015

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:
Islaam tells us of seven heavens (which are separate from Paradise). The first/lowest heaven includes what we know of as the universe, I believe:

....And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection... (Surah al-Fussilat 41:12)

Maybe the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is saying the nearest boundary of the lowest heaven is a distance of 500 years of travel away or maybe he chose to talk about a seemingly random spot from within this lowest heaven (and this is the place from where the object would've been dropped) even if the entire universe is part of the lowest heaven. Or maybe there is another option that has not come to mind.

As for the distance, you mentioned the speed of light. Well, we go beyond that and say that jinn can be faster than this speed, let alone the angels. We don't know whose travel is referred to, we don't know what speed this traveling would be in, we don't know if each of these years is really 500 years or if it is a different period of time (the Qur'aan tells us that the Day of Judgement will be a day equivalent to that of 50,000 years). This is about the unseen so we don't know much about it.

Allaah knows best.

Hey, this was my 2015th post. I should wait until 2016 to make another one lol.

Something of the direction I was thinking.

Similar,

How can my giving 25cents to someone have any importance in the heavens?

Because in the heavens all is magnified,

What causes a shadow on Earth?

Movements of sun and Earth, how much distance has to be covered to make a shadow on Earth move an inch.

LoAmmi · Aug 28, 2015

Robban said:
Movements of sun and Earth, how much distance has to be covered to make a shadow on Earth move an inch.

92.96 million miles traveled in 8.4 minutes. The distance and time it takes light to get from the Sun to the Earth.

Robban · Aug 28, 2015

LoAmmi said:
92.96 million miles traveled in 8.4 minutes. The distance and time it takes light to get from the Sun to the Earth.

That was Quick, wow, must write that down and try and digest it,

When numbers and figures get that high I can get Dizzy.

Thank you

LaSorcia · Aug 28, 2015

Perhaps it is metaphorical, meaning something like: an action begun in heaven (by God or with good intent) more quickly comes to fruition than a base and earthly action.

TG123 · Aug 28, 2015

smaneck said:
Perhaps, but the Muslims here (with the possible exception of Paul) are not scholars and I don't think it reasonable to expect them to defend this kind of hadith. IMO there are flaws in the standard way ahadith are evaluated.

As I have always said in the past and as I continue saying, people can choose to respond to or not answer my posts. If someone says "I don't know", I never give them a hard time. I have had to sometimes give that answer when asked questions about Christianity and the Bible.

TG123 · Aug 28, 2015

Salaam alaikum and great to hear from you, LoveBeingAMuslimah. I miss having a nice debate, the only "debates" I've had in the past few weeks have been with Israeli soldiers at checkpoints, and settlers. It's nice to talk to people who aren't swearing at you or punching you or calling you a "nazi".

Each time I go to the West Bank I learn a new few interesting things, one thing I learned was that being punched in the shoulderblade hurts! Courtesy of a Border Police officer who didn't like being filmed as his buddies were terrorizing a Palestinian family in their house and destroying their furniture late at night, having gotten a "tip" that someone they wanted was hiding there. Sorry, random tangent.

OK... on to my response...

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:
Islaam tells us of seven heavens (which are separate from Paradise). The first/lowest heaven includes what we know of as the universe, I believe:

....And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection... (Surah al-Fussilat 41:12)

Maybe the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is saying the nearest boundary of the lowest heaven is a distance of 500 years of travel away or maybe he chose to talk about a seemingly random spot from within this lowest heaven (and this is the place from where the object would've been dropped) even if the entire universe is part of the lowest heaven. Or maybe there is another option that has not come to mind.

As for the distance, you mentioned the speed of light. Well, we go beyond that and say that jinn can be faster than this speed, let alone the angels. We don't know whose travel is referred to, we don't know what speed this traveling would be in, we don't know if each of these years is really 500 years or if it is a different period of time (the Qur'aan tells us that the Day of Judgement will be a day equivalent to that of 50,000 years). This is about the unseen so we don't know much about it.

Interestingly, Islamweb has addressed the question that was asked by a person, namely, what kind of travel was Muhammad referring to. They write that as a general rule, Muslims should interpret the words in the way that would have been most perceivable at the time of the revelation, unless it can be definitely proven that Muhammad meant something else. Given the time of the revelation, it would make most sense to assume he was talking about travel by horse or camel. I will cite their answer below (1).

Does the Quran say that jinns and angels travel faster than the speed of light? Aren't the angels themselves made out of light?

We know that if one goes into the universe, whether a distance traveled in 500 human years or 500 light years, it will only be a small fraction. Saying that the heavens are 500 years away is an interesting statement, and I am curious what was meant by that. What does the word "heavens" refer to in other parts of the hadiths or Quran?

Also, if we go into space at a distance that would be covered in 500 even human years of travel and drop something, it would take far more than less a day to hit the globe. A meteorological satellite that recently exploded is expected to remain in orbit for the next few decades (2).
A ball that would have been dropped to earth from such a height would remain in orbit for at least a few years. It would not fall and hit the earth in less than 24 hours... not from 500 human years of travel or 500 light years.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:
Allaah knows best.

Ameen to that.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:
Hey, this was my 2015th post. I should wait until 2016 to make another one lol.

No, please don't lol. Keep posting.

(1)
Root > Noble Hadeeth > Explanation of Some Ahadith
Fatwa No : 125455
Distance of certain number of years in Prophetic narrations
Fatwa Date : Sha'baan 6, 1430 / 28-7-2009
Question
Assalamu Alaykum, When the ahadith of the prophet

mention a distance of certain number of years like 500 years between each heaven does this distance mean light years or the time it takes a bird to travel? Thank you
Answer

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad

, is His Slave and Messenger.

We did not find a text that specifies exactly what is meant by that distance. However, there is a rule that the Muslim should abide by when dealing with texts of the Revelation (Quran and Sunnah), namely, it is not permissible to interpret the meaning of the texts in a way that is not apparently perceivable, particularly at the time of revelation. This is a principle, and it is not permissible to change it except with clear evidence that requires otherwise. In this case, we do not know any evidence indicating otherwise. Therefore, the distance, which is 500 years travel, or any other distances mentioned in some Hadeeths refer to the distance that a traveler covers walking on foot or by camel, which is a moderate speed. Terminologies of Sharee'ah should be understood in the manner which was customarily known at the time of legislation [time of the Prophet

]. This is the original rule. If scientific facts certainly demonstrated, for instance, that the distance is 500 light years, this would be a justification to change the meaning of the text from what was perceivable at the time of Revelation into the current facts. The Revelation addresses humanity from the first day it was sent down up to the Day of Resurrection.

Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&lang=E&Id=125455

(2)
These events continue to occur. For example, in February 2015, the USAF Defense Meteorological Satellite Program Flight 13 (DMSP-F13) exploded on orbit, creating at least 149 debris objects, which are expected to remain in orbit for decades.[28]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris#Low_Earth_orbit

LoveBeingAMuslimah · Aug 28, 2015

TG123 said:
Salaam alaikum and great to hear from you, LoveBeingAMuslimah. I miss having a nice debate, the only "debates" I've had in the past few weeks have been with Israeli soldiers at checkpoints, and settlers. It's nice to talk to people who aren't swearing at you or punching you or calling you a "nazi".

Each time I go to the West Bank I learn a new few interesting things, one thing I learned was that being punched in the shoulderblade hurts! Courtesy of a Border Police officer who didn't like being filmed as his buddies were terrorizing a Palestinian family in their house and destroying their furniture late at night, having gotten a "tip" that someone they wanted was hiding there. Sorry, random tangent.

wa alaikum...lol, I'm not planning on any long debates. I'm glad you're safe. Hearing about those types of stories gets me so upset especially because I know so many support our foreign policy and dismiss what happens to Palestinians as something they deserve because they're terrorists (and/or Israel is "defending" itself from them).

Interestingly, Islamweb has addressed the question that was asked by a person, namely, what kind of travel was Muhammad referring to. They write that as a general rule, Muslims should interpret the words in the way that would have been most perceivable at the time of the revelation, unless it can be definitely proven that Muhammad meant something else.

Yes, I think it's called taking the most apparent meaning. But they also say, "If scientific facts certainly demonstrated, for instance, that the distance is 500 light years, this would be a justification to change the meaning of the text from what was perceivable at the time of Revelation into the current facts."

So that means there is room for interpretation but the default is to understand it by the apparent meaning.

Does the Quran say that jinns and angels travel faster than the speed of light? Aren't the angels themselves made out of light?

Angels are indeed made of light though we don't know the nature of it. We have angels present with us but we don't see their light. As for the jinn traveling faster than the speed of light, this is based on the verses of Sulayman (Solomon), peace be upon him, asking the assembly of jinns which of them would fetch the throne of the Queen of Sheba for him.

A powerful one from among the jinn said, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy." Said one who had knowledge from the Scripture, "I will bring it to you before your glance returns to you." And when [Solomon] saw it placed before him, he said, "This is from the favor of my Lord to test me whether I will be grateful or ungrateful. And whoever is grateful - his gratitude is only for [the benefit of] himself. And whoever is ungrateful - then indeed, my Lord is Free of need and Generous." (Surah an-Naml 27:39-40)

Whoever it was carried a throne across 1000+ miles in the twinkling of an eye.

We know that if one goes into the universe, whether a distance traveled in 500 human years or 500 light years, it will only be a small fraction. Saying that the heavens are 500 years away is an interesting statement, and I am curious what was meant by that. What does the word "heavens" refer to in other parts of the hadiths or Quran?

I don't know if the boundary of the lowest heaven is 500 years away or if the object was dropped from a seemingly random spot in the lowest heaven from 500 years away. Allaah knows best.

The distance/space/gap between each heaven and the one above it is the distance of 500 years of traveling (and again, the universe as we know it is included in the lowest heaven):

At-Tabaraani narrated in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabeer (8987) with a hasan isnaad from Ibn Mas‘ood that he said: The distance between the lowest heaven and the next one is the distance of five hundred years’ travel, and the distance between each heaven and the next is the distance of five hundred years’ travel.

I don't know how to answer your question about what heavens refers to in other Islaamic literature.

Also, if we go into space at a distance that would be covered in 500 even human years of travel and drop something, it would take far more than less a day to hit the globe. A meteorological satellite that recently exploded is expected to remain in orbit for the next few decades (2).
A ball that would have been dropped to earth from such a height would remain in orbit for at least a few years. It would not fall and hit the earth in less than 24 hours... not from 500 human years of travel or 500 light years.

1.) We don't know the speed with which the object would be traveling nor do we don't know if the 500 years are 500 of our years.

2.) Even if it is referring to 500 human years & speed, that doesn't really prove the hadeeth wrong. This is not directly related to what you're saying, but the same principle applies:

"As for the question as to how a royal throne was fetched over a distance of 1,500 miles in the twinkling of an eye, it can be briefly answered thus: "The concepts of time and space, and matter and movement, that we have formed on the basis of our experiments and observations, are only applicable to us. These concepts are not correct in respect to God, nor is He bound by these. Not to speak of an ordinary throne, His power can make the sun; and even much larger stars, travel millions of millions of miles in the matter of moments. The God Who by His one Command brought this huge universe into being, had the power to have moved the throne of the queen of Sheba at a speed greater than the speed of light. In this very Qur'an it has been stated that Allah, by His powers, took his servant Muhammad (may Allah's peace be upon him) from Makkah to Jerusalem and also brought him back in the same night. " (Tahfeem al Qur'aan)

No, please don't lol. Keep posting.

I posted 3 more after that one. Fail.

cloudyday2 · Aug 28, 2015

Just out of curiosity, how many sayings of Muhammad are there outside the Quran? Are we talking about a bookshelf full of books or just a few hundred pages?

LoveBeingAMuslimah · Aug 28, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
Just out of curiosity, how many sayings of Muhammad are there outside the Quran? Are we talking about a bookshelf full of books or just a few hundred pages?

We're looking at between 4-5k authentic ones (without repetitions). This doesn't include narrations that would be classified as hasan li ghayri narrations which are narrations that are acceptable not by themselves but due to other factors. If interested, you can read more here though it may be difficult to read since he uses a lot of Arabic terminology that is used in the hadeeth sciences.

cloudyday2 · Aug 28, 2015

What does Muhammad mean by "top of the chain" vs. "from heaven to earth"?

Also, a person could calculate the distance such that a pebble dropped in the Earth's gravitational field would take 40 days or 500 years to reach Earth's surface (assuming the universe was simply the Earth and the pebble). I'm not sure if that is what Muhammad was talking about or not.

AskTheFamily · Aug 28, 2015

It's a parable, the Quran talks about rocks being the fuel for fire and talked about rocks as a parable with respect to the hearts/souls of some bani-Israel after seeing miracles, this is meaning a forty old mean who reached the bottom of the pit and stuck the lowest earth, we all being created from the highest realm only for so many of us to drop the lowest of the low. It's saying the lowest hell is for rocks hard hearts.

It's a parable that after reaching the highest stages, the over all nature of falling to many people, is forty years, in which the hardening of the heart drops and drops.

Imam Khomeini says:

According to a report once the Holy Prophet was sitting along with his companions when a loud sound of something falling was heard. The Holy Prophet's companions were startled. They enquired what had happened. According to the report the Holy Prophet said: 'A stone was rolling down in the middle of Hell. Now after 70 years it has fallen into a well located at the other end of it. This was the sound of its fall.'

This event is said to be an allegorical description of a wicked man who died at the age of 70. We are all rolling down towards the same hole. I may go there at the age of 80. You will also go to that side in a few years.

What do Muslims think of the hadith below?

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