R.C Archbishop warns of totalitarian system

IHOM · Aug 28, 2015

"Archbishop Anthony Sablan Apuron of Agana, Guam has posted a message on his archdiocesean website stating that the "true intention" behind the push for same-sex marriage "has always been about the destruction of the family and the imposition of a totalitarian system."

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/mark-ju...ys-been-about-destruction-family-and-creating

pdudgeon · Aug 29, 2015

what a great and courageous message! :oldthumbsup:

May God protect him!

SolomonVII · Aug 29, 2015

I agree with that statement. The Epoch Times, a subversive paper aimed at the Communist party of China, has done a very good job of documenting the destruction of the family in China, which is necessary to make a totalitarian system possible.

Likewise, North Korea and even the USSR in its day, do everything that they can to sever family loyalties by encouraging children to report on their parents for anti-state activity.

Same sex marriage follows this attack on the family by legitimizing a family structure which is not self-sustaining at all. The mainstream feminist movement in the West also encourages this because their goal has always been to free women from the slavery of biology, and the oppression of bearing children.
Anything that moves away from the traditional model of the family is a movement away from the patriarchy of the family. In place of the father, there will be bureaucrat extending their controls now already well educated in the values of this feminist ideology.

Fantine · Aug 29, 2015

It's interesting that conservative clerics who resist all efforts of collegiality and lay input in an authoritarian hierarchical church--even 50 years after Vatican II-- are so against the kind of system they think works so well for the Church.

SolomonVII · Aug 29, 2015

Contrary to the ever popular and ever so trite projection of anti-conservatives, it should be clear from the discussions that it is not conservatives that are demanding an authoritarian church, but it is non-conservatives that are demanding that everyone follow a political agenda because 'this pope says so'.

There are definitely authoritative teachings of the Church, but they follow neither a conservative nor a liberal agenda.
The Nicene Creed is the summation of those teachings, and it is the same from all political perspectives.

Belief in the inherent and infinite value of a human life created in the image of God is an authoritative teaching, but it applies equally to all of us. The alternative to pro-life is not pro-choice, but death.

An authoritarian church is a theocracy, such as likely existed in the High Middle Ages, or maybe in Spain's fascist dictatorship of Franco.

There are still a few Catholic fascists who believe in such a thing, but that has nothing to do with conservatives. People really should learn the difference between fascists and conservatives, if they want to be actually taken seriously.

IHOM · Aug 29, 2015

SolomonVII said:
Contrary to the ever popular and ever so trite projection of anti-conservatives, it should be clear from the discussions that it is not conservatives that are demanding an authoritarian church, but it is non-conservatives that are demanding that everyone follow a political agenda because 'this pope says so'.

There are definitely authoritative teachings of the Church, but they follow neither a conservative nor a liberal agenda.
The Nicene Creed is the summation of those teachings, and it is the same from all political perspectives.

Belief in the inherent and infinite value of a human life created in the image of God is an authoritative teaching, but it applies equally to all of us. The alternative to pro-life is not pro-choice, but death.

An authoritarian church is a theocracy, such as likely existed in the High Middle Ages, or maybe in Spain's fascist dictatorship of Franco.

There are still a few Catholic fascists who believe in such a thing, but that has nothing to do with conservatives. People really should learn the difference between fascists and conservatives, if they want to be actually taken seriously.

Wow what a post

Fantine · Aug 29, 2015

Pope Francis has been shaking things up, for sure. The Vatican Bank. The Curia.

It was discouraging to see Vatican II talk decentralization and collegiallity while the two Pope's who preceded Pope Francis consolidated power in Rome more than it ever had been. Totalitarianism is never good...

Rhamiel · Aug 29, 2015

Fantine, I am not sure what you are talking about, since Vatican II the Church has taken on the issue of collegiality
and with the "new evangelism" the lay faithful have been emphasized more then in any time in Church history (atleast as far as my limited understanding of history has shown me)

Rhamiel · Aug 29, 2015

I am just glad that the Church did not listen to the voice of the "faithful" when we were having arguments over slavery
many lay Catholics in the South wanted to keep slaves

Armoured · Aug 29, 2015

Fantine said:
It's interesting that conservative clerics who resist all efforts of collegiality and lay input in an authoritarian hierarchical church--even 50 years after Vatican II-- are so against the kind of system they think works so well for the Church.

Ha. Burn.

Armoured · Aug 29, 2015

Rhamiel said:
I am just glad that the Church did not listen to the voice of the "faithful" when we were having arguments over slavery
many lay Catholics in the South wanted to keep slaves

Always an excellent tactic. When you can't defend a subject on it's merits, try to shift the subject and hope people think they're linked.

Rhamiel · Aug 29, 2015

Armoured said:
Always an excellent tactic. When you can't defend a subject on it's merits, try to shift the subject and hope people think they're linked.

well talking about listening to the voice of the lay faithful, that is an important thing to keep in mind
times when historically the lay faithful wanted some pretty horrible things, seems to be on topic

to be honest, I thought bringing up topics of collegiality and the lay faithful in a thread about a Bishop warning us about political totalitarians was a little off topic, but I just went with it
Fantine did bring up some interesting points that deserve to be talked about

Fantine · Aug 29, 2015

During the reign of JPII, power became more and more centralized in the Vatican--more than at any other time in history, according to theologian Richard Gaillardetz, who wrote a Report Card on Vatican II.

So while Vatican II called for more decentralization and collegiality, the exact opposite thing happened.

It only stands to reason that a Church of 1.6 billion people doesn't respond well to micromanagement. Pope Francis is finally trying to follow the spirit of Vatican II.

Pope Francis, she continued, wants to take the vision of the Second Vatican Council further.
“He is reversing the dynamics of centralization. And we’ve seen a lot of this in the last 30 years of the Catholic Church, where perhaps too much was centralized and dependent on Rome,” she said.
“He’s saying, we need to share this responsibility more and more; we need a greater measure of decentralization, but I will continue my ministry, the essence of my ministry, which is to support the bishops in their leadership as leaders of local Churches … and to support the communion of all the local Churches,” she said.

http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-calls-for-more-collegiality-decentralization

I can understand why some people cling to dreams of being micromanaged--they want certainty in a world that is unpredictable and mysterious. They want reassurance that if only they follow a few simple rules they'll win eternal happiness in heaven. I don't think that that kind of insecurity is the hallmark of a mature Christian of any denomination.

Rhamiel · Aug 29, 2015

Fantine said:
So while Vatican II called for more decentralization and collegiality, the exact opposite thing happened.

I disagree with that assessment
the emphasis on the New Evangelism has given new focus on the laity

there has been a new focus on diversity within the Church
with the Eastern Catholic Churches being given more autonomy (and rightfully so) the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Anglican Use Parishes

pdudgeon · Aug 30, 2015

Fantine said:
During the reign of JPII, power became more and more centralized in the Vatican--more than at any other time in history, according to theologian Richard Gaillardetz, who wrote a Report Card on Vatican II.

So while Vatican II called for more decentralization and collegiality, the exact opposite thing happened.

It only stands to reason that a Church of 1.6 billion people doesn't respond well to micromanagement. Pope Francis is finally trying to follow the spirit of Vatican II.

http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-calls-for-more-collegiality-decentralization

I can understand why some people cling to dreams of being micromanaged--they want certainty in a world that is unpredictable and mysterious. They want reassurance that if only they follow a few simple rules they'll win eternal happiness in heaven. I don't think that that kind of insecurity is the hallmark of a mature Christian of any denomination.

it is important to note that 90% of the article you cited is not the Pope's words, but an interpretation of his words given by someone who is not associated with or a part of the Vatican itself. In the early days of his Papacy this 'spin doctoring' by those outside the church happened quite frequently. This article is a prime example of such.

RKO · Aug 30, 2015

Come on folks. Conservatives don't want totalitarianism. They just want absolute control.

Armoured · Aug 30, 2015

RKO said:
Come on folks. Conservatives don't want totalitarianism. They just want absolute control.

Well, depends on who you're calling conservative. But if we're talking neoconservatives... well, they practically idolise the very concept of freedom and liberty.

You know, so long as you don't want the freedom and liberty to do anything they don't approve of, obviously.

pdudgeon · Aug 30, 2015

Armoured said:
Well, depends on who you're calling conservative. But if we're talking neoconservatives... well, they practically idolise the very concept of freedom and liberty.

You know, so long as you don't want the freedom and liberty to do anything they don't approve of, obviously.

wrong again.

Armoured · Aug 30, 2015

pdudgeon said:
wrong again.

Dude, look at, like, 3/4 of the posts on this forum. They're from American neocons wailing about people having the nerve to want the freedom to do what they want.

brewmama · Aug 31, 2015

Armoured said:
Dude, look at, like, 3/4 of the posts on this forum. They're from American neocons wailing about people having the nerve to want the freedom to do what they want.

They HAVE the "freedom to do what they want"! Just not do it and remain Catholic, as it has been since apostolic times.

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