Cessationism question

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Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14:22




Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6-19, 26




The Parousia (the Presence) happened in A.D. 70.

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. Micah 2:12

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Joel 2:28-32

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:16-21

Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Micah 3:6

Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest. Micah 3:12

According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. Micah 7:15


All visions, prophecies, dreams, would cease upon the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the great and terrible day of the Lord according to the days (40 years) of Israel coming out of the land of Egypt.
Thankfully I took a good look before I replied to your very colorful cut and paste of Scripture where I was able to notice that you at least provided two very brief sentences to explain your position; though I would think that your particular perspectives probably belong in the Unorthodox Theology forum - they really make no sense.
 
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Thankfully I took a good look before I replied to your very colorful cut and paste of Scripture where I was able to notice that you at least provided two very brief sentences to explain your position; though I would think that your particular perspectives probably belong in the Unorthodox Theology forum - they really make no sense.

How does speaking in tongues edify the church without interpretation?

And if tongues weren't universal in the 1st century church, why must it be universal now?
 
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How does speaking in tongues edify the church without interpretation?
It could be that you are misreading my replies as I was adamant that uninterpreted tongues cannot edify the congregation, or for that matter, with anyone else but with the one who was speaking to God.

And if tongues weren't universal in the 1st century church, why must it be universal now?
If we view the entirety of Luke and Paul's testimony we can only come to the conclusion that all those congregations that were established or under the influence of the Apostles (incl. Paul), that the vast majority of their members would have been able to praise God in the Spirit (tongues); to the point that I would say that a in Pauls time that it would be hard to find a believer that could not speak in tongues. There is a probable exception with the Galatian churches where they could possibly be deemed to be the first cessationist or cessationis leaning churches where it seems that Paul had almost given up on them.

Cessationists should avoid the temptation to read back into church history and particularly with the churches of the first century from within their humanistic world view where the presence of God is apparently rarely seen within their ranks.

When it comes to "why must it be universal now", this is not really a relevant question as there is no "must" involved; if people choose not to pray in the Spirit (tongues) then that is their perogative, but it is certainly both foolish and unwise to criticise those who are being obedient to both God's Word and the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit - God does not change.
 
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It could be that you are misreading my replies as I was adamant that uninterpreted tongues cannot edify the congregation, or for that matter, with anyone else but with the one who was speaking to God.


If we view the entirety of Luke and Paul's testimony we can only come to the conclusion that all those congregations that were established or under the influence of the Apostles (incl. Paul), that the vast majority of their members would have been able to praise God in the Spirit (tongues); to the point that I would say that a in Pauls time that it would be hard to find a believer that could not speak in tongues. There is a probable exception with the Galatian churches where they could possibly be deemed to be the first cessationist or cessationis leaning churches where it seems that Paul had almost given up on them.

Cessationists should avoid the temptation to read back into church history and particularly with the churches of the first century from within their humanistic world view where the presence of God is apparently rarely seen within their ranks.

When it comes to "why must it be universal now", this is not really a relevant question as there is no "must" involved; if people choose not to pray in the Spirit (tongues) then that is their perogative, but it is certainly both foolish and unwise to criticise those who are being obedient to both God's Word and the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit - God does not change.

Where in the New Testament does it state every one speak with tongues? No not every one will be given the gift of tongues.




4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

One Body with Many Members
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way.


1 Corinthians 12:4-31
 
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To the continuationists, may I ask where are the apostles and the prophets?

They rank far higher up the scale then tongues according to 1 Cor. 12:28.

Where did the apostles and prophets go today?

Did they cease? 1 Cor. 13:8.
 
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Where in the New Testament does it state every one speak with tongues? No not every one will be given the gift of tongues.
Just go back to the end of my post #37.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

One Body with Many Members
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way.
I'm glad to see that you are quoting Scripture which supports my views regarding speaking in tongues; why do you post as many Scriptures as you do without making any comment about them?
 
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Biblicist

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To the continuationists, may I ask where are the apostles and the prophets?

They rank far higher up the scale then tongues according to 1 Cor. 12:28.

Where did the apostles and prophets go today?

Did they cease? 1 Cor. 13:8.
The apostles (not Apostles) are certainly as active today as they were in the life of the Church of the first century; today we call them either church planters or missionaries who are directly involved with church planting, but they certainly do not in any way carry the same authority as the Twelve or with Paul, for that matter, they have no more authority than any other ministry.

As for the prophets, there would be many thousands operating within the church today, just as Agabus and the daughters of Phillip did in the church of the first century; in fact, a Pentecostal church that does not have anyone operating in the Office of a prophet should not really be referring to themselves as Pentecostal.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Originally? Where in the Bible does it say this?

1 Cor 14:13 Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.

I followed the instructions, but everytime I mention it, the passage is treated like it isn't there.

Tongues were never universal within the Church. Not every first century Christian spoke in tongues, but some had greater gifts of the Spirit.

The problem is there is a notion rampant in the charismatic movement that believes tongues equates greater spiritual maturity.

The exact same reason Paul chided the Corinthians for.

Yeah I agree not all speak in tongues, otherwise Paul wouldn't have said at the end of 1 Corinthians 14 to not forbid the speaking of tongues, this would only make sense if a large majority of people did not and were responding as people do today.

I started speaking in tongues outside of the context of a church fellowship or having being given a monkey-see-monkey-do atmosphere to imitate. at first i'd just pray the same prayer in that other language and it would strengthen me, it would change from time to time. When I encountered the charismatic movement in the 1990s it was interesting to participate in, but I also noticed it was ignoring biblical instruction on tongues .. therefore I started applying the passages that they weren't consistently on my own and I believe from the fruit that I was rewarded.

Remember when God starts a day .. the evening comes first.
 
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Biblicist

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Yeah I agree not all speak in tongues, otherwise Paul wouldn't have said at the end of 1 Corinthians 14 to not forbid the speaking of tongues, this would only make sense if a large majority of people did not and were responding as people do today.
What a lot of people tend to miss is that Paul is not saying that "not everyone is able to speak in tongues", but that not all will choose to speak in tongues during the congregational meeting. As we are only permitted to provide three words of praise to the Father in tongues along with three interpretations during each meeting, some will choose to remain silent and allow others to speak.
 
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The apostles (not Apostles) are certainly as active today as they were in the life of the Church of the first century; today we call them either church planters or missionaries who are directly involved with church planting, but they certainly do not in any way carry the same authority as the Twelve or with Paul, for that matter, they have no more authority than any other ministry.

As for the prophets, there would be many thousands operating within the church today, just as Agabus and the daughters of Phillip did in the church of the first century; in fact, a Pentecostal church that does not have anyone operating in the Office of a prophet should not really be referring to themselves as Pentecostal.

Again, provide scriptural evidence for this view? The apostles themselves prayed over and casts votes for this office. Who is doing the voting and by what authority in the pentacostal church?

I am not going to ever trust a pentacostal prophet, remember, if the prophecy does not come to pass, that individual is a false prophet. Test the spirits.
 
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What a lot of people tend to miss is that Paul is not saying that "not everyone is able to speak in tongues", but that not all will choose to speak in tongues during the congregational meeting. As we are only permitted to provide three words of praise to the Father in tongues along with three interpretations during each meeting, some will choose to remain silent and allow others to speak.

Did you even read what I posted from Corinthians 12?

8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions (diaireó #1244) to each one INDIVIDUALLY as he wills.

Remember the members of the body analogy a few verses back, then Paul poses a question. Tongues is one of the many members of the body of Christ, it could be a toe, it could be the eye, etc.

Do all speak with tongues?

The answer is no.

apportions - Greek diaireó (#1244)

Strong's Concordance
diaireó: to divide, to distribute
Original Word: διαιρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diaireó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ahee-reh'-o)
Short Definition: I divide, distribute

Definition: I divide into parts, cut asunder, distribute.

HELPS Word-studies


Cognate: 1244 diairéō – properly, apportion (assign), by the choice of a superior; to divide (distribute). See 1243 (diairesis).


http://biblehub.com/greek/1244.htm
 
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This is my be all, end all cessationist verse:

Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 13:8

Micah 7:15, according to the number of years God delivered the Israelites from the Egyptians and led them through the wilderness likewise God would pour out His spirit upon Israel as prophecied in Joel.
 
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The apostles (not Apostles) are certainly as active today as they were in the life of the Church of the first century; today we call them either church planters or missionaries who are directly involved with church planting, but they certainly do not in any way carry the same authority as the Twelve or with Paul, for that matter, they have no more authority than any other ministry.

As for the prophets, there would be many thousands operating within the church today, just as Agabus and the daughters of Phillip did in the church of the first century; in fact, a Pentecostal church that does not have anyone operating in the Office of a prophet should not really be referring to themselves as Pentecostal.

If that were so, every missionary and church planters in the whole of church history til now are "little" apostles meaning they have the authority to contribute to prophecy and editing the Bible. That the Bible is not finished being written, or rather the Bible is an unfinished work or a work still in progress?

I am a cessationists to the core for this very reason. Charismatic churches are shot full of erroneous teachings, it practices mass hypnosis/mass hysteria in its church services, glossolalia has very deep roots in paganism, continuing revelation, etc.

In the Word of Faith movement, you have both the subjugation of God and the abasement of Christ!

And what denomination/churches do the "little apostles" represent? All of them?

And most cults usually led by self-proclaimed "prophets".
 
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Did you even read what I posted from Corinthians 12?
Yes, I have come across this passage from time to time, I regularly encounter 1Cor 12:7-11 from within the fourteen hard copy commentaries that I currently own on First Corinthians.

As an aside, when it comes to wisdom and knowledge in 12:8, I am not inclined to use utterance for the Greek word logos where utterance has been used in the Tyndale (1534), RSV (1952), NRSV (1989) and ESV (2001). I would be even less inclined to follow message which is found in the NET (1996), NASB (1977/95), NIV (1973/2011), Holman (1999) where I would prefer to keep to word where both utterance and message infer that the outcome of both wisdom and knowledge has to be spoken to another, which is not the case.

With chapter 12, if we were to take it on its own, where it is kept from within the context of chapters 13 & 14 and for that matter with the Book of Acts, then we would not know much about tongues, other than it is both an Operation of the Spirit (12:7-11) and a Congregational Office (12:28).

Chapter 12 breakdown:

Vs 1: Introduction into the spiritual matters.
Vss 2 & 3: A reference to the common practice of calling upon a deity to curse ones opponent.
Vs 4: Differences of graces where the Holy Spirit is the agent, this leads into 12:7-11.
Vs 5: Differences of ministry in the Son (Lit. Lord), this leads into 12:12-27.
Vs 6. Differences of workings/operations where God brings about everything, this leads into 12:28-31.


The 9 Manifestations/Operations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11)
  1. Wisdom
  2. Knowledge
  3. Faith
  4. Healings
  5. Powers (aka, miracles)
  6. Prophecy
  7. Discerning of spirits
  8. Tongues
Vss 11: But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Vss 12-27: Without going into too much detail, these verses do not speak of what Christ may have given to the Church but with how the Body becomes a unity through its diversity.


The 8 Congregational Office (1Cor 12:28-30)

Vs 28: And God has appointed in the church: [Of the 8 Offices, I would say that only four are empowered by the Holy Spirit which are in bold. The other four are based more on our temperament, character and personality.]
  1. Apostles
  2. Prophets
  3. Teachers
  4. Powers
  5. Healings
  6. Helps
  7. Administrations
  8. Tongues
Vs 31: The Corinthians are desiring the greater graces but now Paul tells them he is about to show them the best way to serve within these graces (charisma).


Chapter 13

With chapter 13 we see Paul now linking tongues to that of the Angels but as he employs the Greek word glossa (tongue), we do not know for sure if he is referring to communication that is either language or language-like. The only other aspect of tongues that is spoken of in chapter 13 is that tongues will pass away when the Lord returns with his future Kingdom.

Chapter 14

Vs 1: We are told to vigorously pursue the pneumatikos which involves not only developing whatever Office we may hold (as with 12:28) but that we are to also pursue/seek after the Manifestations/Operations of the Spirit (12:7-11). This means that for those who do not yet speak in tongues that they are to zealously seek to be able to pray in the Spirit (tongues).

Vs 2: When we speak/pray in the Spirit (tongues) they are always directed by the Holy Spirit to the Father and never to man; these words are never in a known human language but are given in the tongues of Angels.

Vs. 3: Those who prophesy speak to the church and not to God and prophecies are always given in the language of the congregation.

Vs 4: The person who speaks in tongues (specifically within the congregational setting), can only edify himself when he does this as no-one can understand what is being said. This edification does not involve revelation, knowledge, prophecy or teaching where this edification is limited to the building up of the inner-man as the Spirit of God speaks through them to the Father.

Vs 5: As Paul is speaking about the congregational setting, he now informs the Corinthians (and us) that he want all of them (and us) to speak a word in tongues (limited to 3 tongues with subsequent interpretations per meeting). He goes on to say that he would desire even more that they all prophesied. He reminds them that those who prophesy provide far more to the life/edification of the local church as they are communicating things from the Spirit which will edify all, where the only edification value for tongues is that the congregation are able to gain an insight (through each tongue being articulated) of what the Spirit is saying to the Father. This is why a dozen or so words in prophecy outweigh 10,000 words that are given in a tongue to the Father.

Vss 7-13: These verses talk about the value of tongues but as tongues are not human language they need to always be interpreted within the congregational setting. Paul points out that even musical instruments which are not a language are also able to convey meaning; as tongues is not language, where they are language-like, then as a musical instrument has value when correctly played so does the intelligibility of wordless tongues when they are applied correctly. The only way that tongues can be correctly applied within the congregational setting is when each one is subsequently articulated (interpreted).

Vss 14-17: Paul now describes normal prayer as being ‘of the mind’ whereas when we pray in tongues we are ‘praying in the Spirit’. He points out that whenever we pray in the Spirit that even though we are praising God, as no-one else can understand what the Spirit is saying through us then the congregation cannot be edified.

Vss 18-23: Paul now makes an illusion to the Assyrians who invaded Jerusalem where the unknown and strange commands (voices) of the Assyrian invaders both frightened and confused the Israelites. The same thing occurs when an unbeliever or a cessationist walks into a meeting where they encounter everyone unwisely speaking/singing in tongues all at once during times of praise and worship, where their confusion will in all probability result in them being further hardened to the Gospel and they will probably walk out saying “they are mad”; this is the negative sign value of uninterpreted tongues that Paul speaks about.


Vss 24-25:
Prophecy has the ability to not only edify the congregation but the Holy Spirit can also employ prophecy to reach the unbeliever and the cessationist as well.

Vss 26-33: Congregational requirements regarding the proper use of tongues and prophecy within the congregational setting.

Vss 33-36: Women may not speak in church which relates only to judging prophecies as this is the role of not only the men but with that of the elders. They may certainly pray in their native language, pray in tongues and prophesy.

Vss 37-38: Paul is now establishing his authority over the Corinthians (and us).
 
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This is my be all, end all cessationist verse:

Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 13:8

Micah 7:15, according to the number of years God delivered the Israelites from the Egyptians and led them through the wilderness likewise God would pour out His spirit upon Israel as prophecied in Joel.
If this is your "be all and end all" regarding your cessationist worldview, then I would say that you are definately in a bit of trouble as even most cessationist scholars recognise that Paul is speaking of the future return of the Lord when he comes with his new Kingdom; from memory, even the humanist commentator John Macarthur also acknowledges this.
 
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If that were so, every missionary and church planters in the whole of church history til now are "little" apostles meaning they have the authority to contribute to prophecy and editing the Bible. That the Bible is not finished being written, or rather the Bible is an unfinished work or a work still in progress?

I am a cessationists to the core for this very reason. Charismatic churches are shot full of erroneous teachings, it practices mass hypnosis/mass hysteria in its church services, glossolalia has very deep roots in paganism, continuing revelation, etc.

In the Word of Faith movement, you have both the subjugation of God and the abasement of Christ!

And what denomination/churches do the "little apostles" represent? All of them?

And most cults usually led by self-proclaimed "prophets".
"Little apostles", now I quite like this euphinism as it fits well with how I preceded A/apostle with either a & A.

You seem to be a bit confused with the role of the New Testament apostles and prophets since the closure of the Canon. As the content of any prophecy or the teaching of any missionary-church planter (apostles) cannot be added to the Canon of the Scripture then you will have to explain where you are coming from. I could very easily lay the charge that those who have been forcing their cessationist views on the Church that they are doing what you are saying, but they are of course not trying to add to the Scriptures where the only charge that we can lay against them is that they are intentionally trying to detract from God's Word.

If you are a cessationist merely because you have misunderstood the Word of God, then I think that if I was in your shoes I would quickly do something about changing your worldview.
 
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If this is your "be all and end all" regarding your cessationist worldview, then I would say that you are definately in a bit of trouble as even most cessationist scholars recognise that Paul is speaking of the future return of the Lord when he comes with his new Kingdom; from memory, even the humanist commentator John Macarthur also acknowledges this.

It makes no mention of the Second Coming of Christ in 1 Corinthians 13
"Little apostles", now I quite like this euphinism as it fits well with how I preceded A/apostle with either a & A.

You seem to be a bit confused with the role of the New Testament apostles and prophets since the closure of the Canon. As the content of any prophecy or the teaching of any missionary-church planter (apostles) cannot be added to the Canon of the Scripture then you will have to explain where you are coming from. I could very easily lay the charge that those who have been forcing their cessationist views on the Church that they are doing what you are saying, but they are of course not trying to add to the Scriptures where the only charge that we can lay against them is that they are intentionally trying to detract from God's Word.

If you are a cessationist merely because you have misunderstood the Word of God, then I think that if I was in your shoes I would quickly do something about changing your worldview.

No, it is you that are adding to and contributing to the word of God with this "tongues" tomfoolery.

Do you want to know why, "tongues" are only supposed to be a human language, all of you are speaking nothing but gibberish, nobody can translate that?

1 Corinthians 12:28 "various kinds (genos #1085) of tongues (glossa #1100)."

1 CORINTHIANS 12 GREEK INTERLINEAR

1085. genos
Strong's Concordance
genos: family, offspring
Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Short Definition: offspring, family, race, kind
Definition: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from ginomai
Definition
family, offspring
NASB Translation
birth (2), countrymen (2), descendant (1), descent (1), family (2), kind (3), kinds (3), nation (1), native (1), race (3).


http://biblehub.com/greek/1085.htm


1100. glóssa
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

HELPS Word-studies

1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues (1100 /glṓssa) as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 – furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]


http://biblehub.com/greek/1100.htm


Thank you very much, but the charismatic movement has introduced occultism into the church.
 
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It makes no mention of the Second Coming of Christ in 1 Corinthians 13
It appears that you one of a very small minority who hold to this particular view as the only meaning that can be gleaned from 1Cor 13 is that Paul is speaking of the Parousia (the return of the Lord with his new Kingdom). The following graphic that I have produced shows the general consensus of scholars who are either Pentecostal, “open-but-cautious” and cessationist.

Alan F. Johnson (2010), Peter Naylor (2004) and Simon Kistemaker (1993) have offered an additional (novel) cessationist position regarding tongues in that even though they agree that Paul is referring to the Consummation of all things, where the Lord returns in his Kingdom, they leave open the possibility that tongues may have been one of those Operations of the Spirit that could have ceased earlier; as such, their position which reflects the general thrust of contemporary cessationist reasoning regarding tongues, is not so much theological but philosophical. The days have well gone where prudent scholarly cessationists try to counter Continuists with Scripture where they have now been compelled to employ philosophy.


1 Cor 13 (Eschaton) bf2015v.9.jpg



No, it is you that are adding to and contributing to the word of God with this "tongues" tomfoolery.

Do you want to know why, "tongues" are only supposed to be a human language, all of you are speaking nothing but gibberish, nobody can translate that?

1 Corinthians 12:28 "various kinds (genos #1085) of tongues (glossa #1100)."

1100. glóssa
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).
HELPS Word-studies

1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).
The excerpt from Thiseltons work on First Corinthians might help you to better understand how Paul uses glossa:

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Anthony C. Thiselton (2000) p.1086

In spite of Gundry’s arguments about the regular use of γλῶσσα to denote communicative languages which are not necessarily linked with exalted or ecstatic states of consciousness, “It is highly unlikely that tongues signify known languages in these contexts [i.e., 13:1 or 14:2].”[1] Without any contextual indicator, γλῶσσα may denote simply an organ of speech. However, the context of chs. 12-14 provides “antithetical parallelism” between tongues and prophecy in which “the most obvious characteristic of tongues is its unintelligibility,” which becomes elaborated in the analogy of reverberating musical instruments as against those with differential pitch, rhythm, and tempo (vv. 7-8).[2] Although Chrysostom interprets mysteries more positively, Calvin more convincingly perceives the term to denote that which is “unintelligible, baffling, enigmatic,... as if Paul had written, ‘Nobody understands a word he says.’”[3] Some modern commentators understand πνεύματι to refer to the human spirit, largely on the basis of the occurrence of this meaning in vv. 14 and 32.[4] Many commentators before the 1950s were unduly influenced by a view of human personhood dominated by idealist or Cartesian dualism, and πνεῦμα as human spirit plays a very minor role in Paul. Almost always it denotes the Holy Spirit, except in those specific contexts (14:14 and 32) where semantic contrasts clearly indicate otherwise. As in 15: 44, to confuse human “spirituality,” let alone “immateriality, ” with that which is characterized by the agency of the Spirit of God is to invite serious misunderstanding of Paul’s theology. NRSV, REB, and NJB (against NIV, AV/KJV) rightly translate the Spirit.​

[1] (29) Williams, Tongues of the Spirit, 26; cf. Gundry, “‘Ecstatic Utterance’ (NEB)?” 299-307; and BAGD, 162.
[2] (30) Gillespie, The First Theologians, 130 and 150-51.
[3] (31) Calvin, First Epistle, 286, cf. Chrysostom, 1 Cor. Horn., 35:1, which in part anticipates Dautzenberg’s approach.
[4] (32) Kistemaker, 1 Cor, 477; Edwards, First Epistle, 357; Meyer, Cor, 2:5. However, these writers hastily modify their claim by insisting on the importance of the Spirit's agency at the same time. Robertson and Plummer make no qualification (First Epistle, 306). But for the Spirit cf. Fee, First Epistle, 656-57; and Conzelmann, 1 Cor, 234.


I appreciate that most people can only access Strong’s definitions but they are rarely helpful where they probably mislead more than they help. The following TDNT definitions might help you to better understand how Paul employs glossa:

Glossa (BW6 TDNT).jpg



1085. genos
Strong's Concordance
genos: family, offspring
Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Short Definition: offspring, family, race, kind
Definition: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from ginomai
Definition
family, offspring
NASB Translation
birth (2), countrymen (2), descendant (1), descent (1), family (2), kind (3), kinds (3), nation (1), native (1), race (3).


http://biblehub.com/greek/1085.htm
You will quickly notice that genos does not refer to human language but to a species or class of things.

VGNT Dictionary (BibleWorks 7)


844 γένος [pg 124]
γένος
is common in the papyri with reference to a species or class of things. Thus P Fay 2110 (A.D. 134) εἴτ᾽ ἐν γένεσιν εἴτ᾽ ἐν ἀργυρίῳ, “whether in kind or in money,” with reference to payments, ib. 9011 (A.D. 234) χ@ρῆ]σιν ἐγ γένι λαχανοσπέρμου ἀρτάβας τρ@ῖ]ς, “a loan in kind of three artabas of vegetable seed,” P Oxy VIII. 113413 (A.D. 421) περὶ ἄλλου τινὸς εἴδους ἢ γένους, “of any other sort or kind.” In P Grenf II. 4411 (A.D. 101) the word occurs in connexion with the transport of “goods,” and in P Oxy IV. 72720 (A.D. 154) an agent is authorized γένη διαπωλήσοντα ἃ ἐὰν δέον ᾖ τῇ αὐτοῦ πίστει, “to sell off produce as may be needful on his own authority”: cf. ib. I. 5416 (A.D. 201) εἰς τειμὴν γενῶν, “for the price of materials” for the repair of public buildings, and ib. 10116 (A. D. 142) where γένεσι = “crops.” Similarly P Amh II. 9115 (A.D. 159) οἷς ἐὰν αἱρῶμαι γένεσι πλὴν κνήκου, “with any crops I choose except cnecus” (Edd.). In P Oxy IX. 120220 (A.D. 217) κατ᾽ ἀκολουθείαν τῶν ἐτῶν καὶ τοῦ γένους, the word is used = “parentage”: cf. BGU I. 14026 (B.C. 119) τοῖς πρὸς @γ]ένους συνγενέσι, “to the legitimate parents.” With γένος = “offspring,” as in Ac 1728, cf. IG XIV. 641 (Thurii) καὶ γὰρ ἐγὼν ὑμῶν γένος ὄλβιον εὔχομαι εἶμεν … Ὄλβιε καὶ μακαριστέ, θεὸς δ᾽εσῃ ἀντὶ βροτοῖο, and 638 γῆς παῖς εἰμὶ καὶ οὐρανοῦ ἀστερόεντος, αὐτὰρ ἐμοὶ γένος οὐράνιον (both cited by Norden Agnostos Theos, p. 194). Ac 46 has a close parallel in P Tebt II. 29136 (A.D. 162) ἀ]pεd@ι]ξας σεαυτὸν γένους @ὄ]ντα ἱερατικοῦ. In OGIS 4705 (time of Augustus) a certain Theophron describes himself as priest διὰ γένου τῆς Ἀναΐτιδος Ἀρτέμιδος, “hereditary” priest. In ib. 51310 (iii/A.D.) γένους τῶν Ἐπι(λ)αϊδῶν, and 6354 (Palmyra, A.D. 178–9) οἱ ἐγ γένους Ζαβδιβωλείων, it answers to gens, a tribe or clan. For the common τῷ γένει in descriptions, cf. Syll 8522 (ii/B.C.) σῶμα ἀνδρεῖον ὧι ὄνομα Κύπριος τὸ γένος Κύπριον. In Vettius Valens, p. 8626, εἰς γένος εἰσελθών is used of a manumitted slave: cf. p. 10611.​

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues (1100 /glṓssa) as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 – furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]
The only time that the Scriptures indicate that tongues were ever given in a known human language was with Acts 2. In Acts 10:46 and 19:6 Luke makes no mention that the Disciples wittnessed the Romans speaking in known human languages which he surely would have done it this had of been the case. The same goes for Acts 19:6 as well.

As for 1Cor 12:13, I'm not sure why you have included this passage but all throughout chapters 12, 13 & 14 their is almost universal agreement, amongst Pentecostals and cessationists that Paul was not referring to known human languages.
 
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The only time that the Scriptures indicate that tongues were ever given in a known human language was with Acts 2. In Acts 10:46 and 19:6 Luke makes no mention that the Disciples wittnessed the Romans speaking in known human languages which he surely would have done it this had of been the case. The same goes for Acts 19:6 as well.

As for 1Cor 12:13, I'm not sure why you have included this passage but all throughout chapters 12, 13 & 14 their is almost universal agreement, amongst Pentecostals and cessationists that Paul was not referring to known human languages.

The only full and unequivocal description of the gift of tongues is given in Acts 2. Several verses are given over to its description. Undoubtedly it is the miraculous ability to suddenly speak in foreign languages that the disciples had never leaned.

The tongues at Cornelius's household was also definitely foreign languages because in the next chapter when Peter reports back to Jerusalem he says they received the Holy Spirit in exactly the same way as the disciples did at Pentecost (Acts 11:15).

I can see nowhere in the Bible where tongues is anything other than speaking in foreign languages. I have heard it said that charismatic tongues is the 'tongues of angels' that Paul refers to in 1 Cor 13, but that is a misinterpretation of that passage. Paul never says he spoke in the tongues of angels. He says that even if he could do such a thing but not have love then he nothing but a clanging cymbal. Paul is using hyperbole. This is confirmed in the next 2 verses where he also uses the same figure of speech to exaggerate the gifts of prophecy, faith, and giving. All he is saying is even if he had those spiritual gifts to the ultimate degree theoretically possible, but not have love, they are worthless. It doesn't mean that he really moved mountains, could fathom all mysteries, gave all that he had to the poor, or spoke in the tongues of angels.
 
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"Diverse Kinds of Tongues" in the original Greek is "genē (genos) [URL='http://biblehub.com/greek/glo_sso_n_1100.htm']glōssōn (glossa)"[/URL]

1085. genos
Strong's Concordance
genos: family, offspring
Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Short Definition: offspring, family, race, kind
Definition: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.


1100. glóssa
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).




It is speaking of obviously speaking of the languages of the nations, the languages of the races, etc.
 
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