Honest questions for Christians

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benedictaoo

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I'm sorry, I don't believe that. I didn't have a choice as a child. I was forced into believing.



I know there is scripture warnings for parents / adults not to be the cause of little children stumbling or to be a stumbling block for weaker Christians.



As an adult, this is true. I did make the choice to walk away, because of how I was treated by many Christians over the years.



I have to respectfully disagree.


Again, I have to respectfully disagree, because of the scriptures warning Christians not to be a stumbling block for weaker Christians or the cause of a child stumbling.
I totally get it. I know Catholic children who have been hurt badly by their crummy Catholic dad so, you are most correct. They is who will stand before God and given an account for hurting a person, specially your children, to the point they hate the Church, God and want nothing to do with either. So yeah. But those are sheep in wolves clothing. For real. They aren't Christian no matter what they claim.
 
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benedictaoo

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i fear that you have confused the created with the Creator.

looking around at other people and evaluating them will only do one of two things;
it will either raise your self esteem or it will crush it.

The reason for that is because there will always be people who are either better or worse than you are,
either at doing something or at being something.
The smart man follows God to the best of his ability, and what does what He asks.

That man has help along the way because Jesus, his brother, is always beside him showing the way, taking part of the load,
imparting wisdom, and watching out for difficulties.

Your way is unique to you, and no one knows that better than God who created you.
In the same way that a toy manufacturer writes directions for the use of the toy,
so God has written His directions for us as well.
And just like that toy, we function best when following those directions.
Yes but there are Christian who do hurt people to the point they want nothing to do with this faith. This is a real thing. Or problem I should say.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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I totally get it. I know Catholic children who have been hurt badly by their crummy Catholic dad so, you are most correct. They is who will stand before God and given an account for hurting a person, specially your children, to the point they hate the Church, God and want nothing to do with either. So yeah. But those are sheep in wolves clothing. For real. They aren't Christian no matter what they claim.
*wolves in sheep clothing ^_^
 
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pdudgeon

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I'm sorry, I don't believe that. I didn't have a choice as a child. I was forced into believing.
and when you became a man you made your own decisions. It is the same with Christianity.
There is always a point at which it is either knowingly accepted or else knowingly rejected.
That is called Free Will.

God does not compel our acceptance of Him. Instead He stands outside the door of our heart and knocks--asking admittance.



I know there is scripture warnings for parents / adults not to be the cause of little children stumbling or to be a stumbling block for weaker Christians.
yes, there is, but it is meant as a warning to those who would abuse or torment children to the detriment of the little child who is innocent.
to instruct a child in Christianity is to teach them the way that leads to eternal life.



As an adult, this is true. I did make the choice to walk away, because of how I was treated by many Christians over the years.
and again, in doing so you sat in judgement over the Creator and held Him responsible for the actions of the created being.
And having judged Him guilty,
you turned your back on Him.



I have to respectfully disagree.....
Again, I have to respectfully disagree, because of the scriptures warning Christians not to be a stumbling block for weaker Christians or the cause of a child stumbling.

and this quote i have dealt with above.
 
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Swan7

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If I were a Muslim, how would you draw me to Christ?

What would you say to me that could convince me enough to convert to your faith?

The only thing a Christian could do is plant the seed, so to speak, and if you are willing to hear it.

Matthew 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

And if I were a Muslim and I read all of these verbal attacks against Islam, please tell me why I should ever consider converting to Christianity?

Seek God for answers, not man.
Deuteronomy 4:29 “But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul”


While I'm not a Muslim, I am a non-Christian now. So, what could you say to me that would make me consider returning to the Christian faith?

I don't know what a non-Christian means, but I do see "other-religion" on your profile, so forgive me if I confused the meaning in my answer.

If God asked: "I'm coming soon, my son. What will you do?"
Granted, I cannot speak for Him by any means and I, or any Christian, cannot say anything to make you consider returning to the faith. You do that on your own with the help of sowing seeds from others who are genuine in their faith, and God does the rest.

I spent many years in the church, so I'm fairly familiar with scripture. I'm familiar with the teaching of Christians being commanded to love their enemies, pray for their enemies, do good to their enemies, treat others as they want to be treated, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and be a witness for Jesus and fulfill the Great Commission, among many other teachings of Jesus. I also know Jesus made it perfectly clear that the world would know His followers by their love for each other.

A person can say they are Christian all they want, even until they are blue in the face, but... if they are not living what they profess and their profession of faith is not evident in their own words and actions, then their repeated proclamations of being Christian are not worth listening to. IOW, if a Christian wants to draw a person to Jesus Christ, then they must first live out their faith, otherwise they could possibly push someone further away from Him and even quite possibly cause them to miss salvation.

I'll admit I have been turned off by the word itself because of how it is poorly portrayed. I'm sure most don't realize they're living a worldly life than a spiritual one. However, that doesn't mean God doesn't speak through them in some way.

You're absolutely right. Anyone can say "I'm a Christian!" and not live like one. This is why God gives us discernment, and to not to put too much trust in people - trust Him with all your heart.

Psalm 118:8
 
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pdudgeon

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Yes but there are Christian who do hurt people to the point they want nothing to do with this faith. This is a real thing. Or problem I should say.
It is a problem, but here again the guilt is placed at the wrong feet.

people hurt people. and it is people who should be held accountable.

Christianity is a good thing, but satan is always willing to twist it into something terrible,
and then lay the blame for the terrible things at the feet of God.
People who make that mistake are only doing the bidding of satan, whether they recognize that or not.
 
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benedictaoo

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It is a problem, but here again the guilt is placed at the wrong feet.

people hurt people. and it is people who should be held accountable.

Christianity is a good thing, but satan is always willing to twist it into something terrible,
and then lay the blame for the terrible things at the feet of God.
People who make that mistake are only doing the bidding of satan, whether they recognize that or not.
You have to understand when this happens to you as a child or when harm is done to you in the name of what ever belief, its a very hard thing to over come. We can not over simplify this by saying, you an adult now, you are called to believe. Some working it out is required and we cant put rules on how a person may be working it out with God.
 
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dzheremi

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Syrian author Dr. Nabeel T. Jabbour has written a very interesting and recommendable book on the challenges of talking about your faith with Muslims called The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross that I would recommend to anybody, particularly to Western Christians (Dr. Nabeel is himself a Protestant). It goes through many of the mistakes Christians often make when preparing to talk to Muslims, and how the Western worldview and Middle Eastern worldview are very different, particularly with regard to religion. I don't think it's really needed by Oriental Orthodox Christians, since I think this is one area where we have an advantage over others. We speak the same languages as the Muslim majority in the home countries (e.g., Syriac Orthodox in Iraq and Syria speak Arabic as a second or sometimes first language; Armenians in Iran speak Farsi; Syriacs and Armenians in Turkey speak Turkish, etc.), share at least some of the overarching culture, and we can say with no hyperbole that more often than not we are of the same blood and origins as the Muslim, Arab-identifying majority (this is only not true in Iran, where of course the people aren't Arabs anyway, unless you're talking about some parts of coastal Iran in the south). It was quite rare for large populations of ethnic Arabs to move into the places that the Arab-Muslim armies conquered, and generally if there were Arabs there they predated Islam by centuries, as in the case of Al-Hira (the first Arab settlement in what is now Iraq, which became the capital of the Christian Arab Lakhmid kingdom beginning in the 5th century). Usually instead the Arab-Muslim rulers would do everything they could to Arabize the non-Arab natives, like the Copts in Egypt or the Imazighen ('Berber' is pejorative) in the rest of North Africa. For that reason, when people in those countries want to "go back to their roots", it can involve encounters with Christianity. I have been to Coptic monasteries here in the USA where the priests and deacons very proudly told me that they have had Muslim Egyptians -- very serious ones like mullahs with long beards and women with full face covering -- come to them to learn the Coptic language. When I asked the deacons about that, they said very matter-of-factly "They are Egyptians; they know they are not Arabs". And so it is in most of the Middle East: the native people of Iraq and Syria are the Syriac/Assyrian people, not the Arabs (and not the Greeks). The native people of Egypt are the Copts, not the Arabs. The native people of Sudan and Upper Egypt are Nubians and various other black Africans like the Beja, not the Arabs. The native people of the rest of North Africa (excluding Egypt) are various Imazighen people, not the Arabs. This is something that everyone who is not politically motivated by so-called Pan-Arabism (which was the invention of Arab Christians, by the way, not Muslims) recognizes, and has been at least part of the driving force behind conversions to Christianity in some unlikely places, like Algeria (where in some Kabylie strongholds Christianity is approaching two-digit figures and is the fastest-growing religion; I have been told this by Algerian Catholics who were native converts). For a lot of these people, Christianity is to them similar to what I'm guessing your religion is to you now, Red Fox: A return to their ancestral religion/turning away from a religion that was imposed on them by cruel outsiders who exterminated or attempted to exterminate their culture, language, and religion in the process of stealing their land and making them an impoverished and brutalized minority in their own native land. (This is why I don't go in too much for calling every criticism of Islam "Islamophobic" or inherently bad; criticism of it from those who have lost everything to the people who forced it on them and on their land like the kind of criticism you may hear from Copts, Imazighen who are either non-religious or Christian, Armenians, Syriacs, various native Africans in Sudan like the Nuer or the non-Muslim members of the Dinka, etc. is worlds away from ranting white people who are mad or feel threatened that there's a girl in front of them in Starbucks in a hijab. One is rooted in 1400 years of oppression and murder at the hands of Muslims suffered by the native people of the Middle East and North Africa, and the other is "Eww, stinky brown people and their yucky brown God" or whatever. I have no patience for the latter, but the former is pretty much exactly the same as any person would react anywhere. If it is right for the native peoples of the Americas to reclaim their languages, lands, and religions -- and I believe it is -- then native people elsewhere should be doing the same thing. We should be allies, even if that means that some of us are Christians because we were from the beginning of that religion and no one ever forced it on us, while some of us might not be Christians precisely because it was forced by other people and is resented on that account. What can I say? Actions have consequences, and I'm not going to bow down to the Muslim out of a fear of seeming "racist" or whatever; Islam is not a race, and as I wrote above, often times Christians and Muslims are of the same ethnic origins anyway. So Islam really is the problem, when it comes to Muslim-Christian relations in a Middle Eastern context, and what the rest of the world assumes only the USA or other Western powers do can very much be said about Muslims, not matter what color they happen to be. To paraphrase the words of the very Muslim director Hassan Ibrahim of Al-Jazeera in the film Control Room: "You are the most powerful -- I agree; you can defeat everybody -- I agree; you can crush everybody, I agree...but don't ask us to love it as well!")

Anyway, so that's what I would say to Muslims: You are free to be Muslim all you want, but at least know the history of it and how you came to be one. The point is not that Christianity's history is all good and Christians never did anything bad (though there is a world of difference between what Oriental Christians did versus what Western Christians did, because it sure as heck wasn't the Copts or the Syriacs who carved up Africa or the Americas in the scramble for territory, resources, and souls; we would have been more like the beleaguered natives in those same eras, and even today I have known people who came to our church specifically because they were not comfortable as native people belonging to a church that cooperated in the calamities that Westerners brought upon their people), but that in becoming Muslims, many peoples' true identities have been erased, and they have been made to live in the image of a 7th century Arabian warlord, and it is not right that this great ahistorical deception should continue unabated in a time when people have more access to information and history than ever. So it is that Christianity has grown lately to many thousands of people in Kabyle (an Imazighen people) areas of Algeria, where the people have had an uneasy time with centuries of oppression not remedied by native (Algerian, but Arabizing) governments, who continue to treat the consciously-not-Arab-and-usually-religiously-secular population poorly.

I don't know what I would say to someone like you, Red Fox, who is simply practicing her native religion as she feels comfortable and true being. I think you've shown that your problem is with the effect of Christianization on your community and how you have personally felt it in your own life, not with all Christians everywhere and always by virtue of their being Christians. And that's an important distinction to make. Like I wrote, we should be allies. Native people in the Middle East and native people in the Americas and native people everywhere. And that's what my church is about: the real, lived history and theology and hymnody and iconography and Orthodoxy of the non-Hellenized (or at best semi-Hellenized) native people of the Near East, because before the Muslim Arabs were around, it was the Greeks who were the elite in the East (so the Arab Muslims came and it was "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"). Anyway, you're smart; I'm sure you can draw whatever parallel you might wish to out of all this. This is what I personally see, though.
 
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pdudgeon

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I no longer believe that God, as I know Him now as the Great Spirit, is limited to Christianity nor does He limit His great power to it. I don't believe He is confined within the walls of the Christian church either. I think His infinite power is too great for that. I don't think He can be put into a theological box and have His power limited by those who believe in Him. I don't think He's limited by His creation. I'm not sure if this scripture applies or not, but Jesus said that He had other sheep who would hear His voice.

yes, and in those last 5 words ("who would hear His voice") you have the key.
God speaks with one voice as in the beginning.
So the key here is if a person were to hear God saying anything contradictory to what He has already said to others,
then they would know that it was not God.

The apostles warned of the same thing, to beware of anyone who came in the name of the Lord but taught a different gospel.

"My sheep know My voice."
Each sheep in the flock knows the voice of their shepherd, and He speaks to all of them the same.
 
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benedictaoo

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I don't know what to believe about God being three gods in one, because I was forced to accept Christianity and its teaching as a child. I don't know if what I was taught as a child and what I have believed all these years about God is true or not. Admittedly, it is very confusing for me and it has caused me great anxiety some times.
Just keep praying for understanding. And read the Gospels. Jesus will have you fall in love with Him.
 
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pdudgeon

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You have to understand when this happens to you as a child or when harm is done to you in the name of what ever belief, its a very hard thing to over come. We can not over simplify this by saying, you an adult now, you are called to believe. Some working it out is required and we cant put rules on how a person may be working it out with God.

no, but with wisdom as an adult we can see the difference between what is right and what is wrong.
that is the basis of understanding and comprehension.
And when that is understood, then a true picture of what has happened can be made,
and healing can begin.

but without that true picture, everything--good and bad--are lumped together in one package.
and when that happens, healing does not take place.
 
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pdudgeon

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Yes but there are Christian who do hurt people to the point they want nothing to do with this faith. This is a real thing. Or problem I should say.
and again, when someone lumps the bad with the good and rejects both, they are only dealing with an incomplete picture.

(and it's the child in them that is saying "I hate all...." (fill in the blank) when in fact they don't actually know all the (fill in the blanks))
making an adult evaluation from the perspective of a child is neither wise nor smart.
 
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pdudgeon

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I understand that however everyone heals at their own pace. She may not be all the way healed yet. The point is, she has been hurt and we should help her heal first before asking her get to a place she may not be ready for.

^^^ reminds me of a physical therapist's job. gently exercising muscles that hurt may be painful, but eventually it does lead to healing.
 
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Michie

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How is this different from those that have been hurt by those within the Church I wonder...

Exactly. The child has been damaged and this adult is the result. How do we fix the damage that was caused?
 
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pdudgeon

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Exactly. The child has been damaged and this adult is the result. How do we fix the damage that was caused?

1. recognize the difference between good and bad. most important, because the child's response will be 'all is bad'.
do not proceed until they know this.

2. show examples of the good, and do it consistently until trust is built based on new experiences which replace the bad ones.
3. have safe areas to retreat to that are available for times when stress is great.
4. build in accountability on both sides of the problem.
5. recognize that fear is a chain that binds, and that keeps us from enjoying life.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If I were a Muslim, how would you draw me to Christ?

What would you say to me that could convince me enough to convert to your faith?

And if I were a Muslim and I read all of these verbal attacks against Islam, please tell me why I should ever consider converting to Christianity?

While I'm not a Muslim, I am a non-Christian now. So, what could you say to me that would make me consider returning to the Christian faith?

I spent many years in the church, so I'm fairly familiar with scripture. I'm familiar with the teaching of Christians being commanded to love their enemies, pray for their enemies, do good to their enemies, treat others as they want to be treated, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and be a witness for Jesus and fulfill the Great Commission, among many other teachings of Jesus. I also know Jesus made it perfectly clear that the world would know His followers by their love for each other.

A person can say they are Christian all they want, even until they are blue in the face, but... if they are not living what they profess and their profession of faith is not evident in their own words and actions, then their repeated proclamations of being Christian are not worth listening to. IOW, if a Christian wants to draw a person to Jesus Christ, then they must first live out their faith, otherwise they could possibly push someone further away from Him and even quite possibly cause them to miss salvation.

Hello Red Fox,

As a philosopher, I would not, and do not, assume straight off to know what specifically should be said so as to catalyze a revivification of your former Christian faith; such an assumption on my part could actually further damage your already diminished view of faith rather than bring about repair. So, without knowing what particular feelings, ideas, and/or events brought about your disconnection with Christian faith, I am hesitant to offer you some bit of wisdom or guidance.

However, knowing that you are now a non-Christian, I suggest that you apply the same scrutiny to your 'new' worldview as you have to the old, Christian one, without employing epistemic short-cuts, and without subscribing to simplistic, mystical trade-offs.

With that said, I hope you find something that brings contentment and happiness...

2PhiloVoid

2PhiloVoid
 
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