Why SOCIALISM/LIBERALISM is not American

rambot said:

We can see that trickle down economics does virtually naught to help the middle class. That is because we are ALL greedy, rich people are just the first people to get the money:

The absolutely hilarious thing to me is the belief that middle class people think that they are different. If we get a bunch of tax breaks and if the rich get more tax breaks so we don't have to support the poor through government programs, who are we ACTUALLY kidding ourselves that we would end up donating that money to the poor and in need. We are just like the rich in that regards; there would be little trickling down past us.

Because of this, and/or a dubious definition of what "love" looks like, government programs (in my view) are critical for the well being and safety of western society.

Click to expand...

that big one is the government and their PET projects and what they pour out is our lives and blood and sweat and tears.

SinnerInTheHands said:

Some of us disagree, not with helping the poor, but with the method that you are taking to do so.

Me, I'm extremely suspicious of the government. Ever get turned around at the DMV? Ever go to a USPS warehouse to retrieve a package and find that the place is a mess of red tape and bureaucracy?

If I can't trust the government to get me a package on time or to process a renewal form without screwing things up, how on earth am I supposed to trust that my money will get to the poor?

My apologies if I have acted unloving or angry, I get pretty riled up with this kind of debate.

Click to expand...

Ever have a package that was supposed to have been delivered by UPS and not they can't find what actually happened to the package? Ever try changing your service from Comcast only to have them charge you an early termination fee from them even though you've increased your services, and only found out that they charged you the fee when a collection agency comes after you? Large organizations of all stripes, public and private, are a mess of red tape an bureaucracy.

Likewise, most charitable organizations, public or private, have a hard time having funds given to them allocated effectively in the cause they claim to represent. Often times, much of the donations go to marketing & overhead, and not to the cause they claim to support.

We should definitely vigorously attempt to root out waste and corruption (both of which are abundant) in government. However, the existence of waste and corruption isn't a reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

So how do people escape poverty if we don't educate them? Is your goal to keep children born in poverty there forever, with just enough food to keep them alive...because they made the mistake of being born poor?
Those who aren't poor but have made it to the middle class or further up should be honest enough to admit they did so in part due to the support of society. Everything from public schools and universities to roads and Internet, and even things like government efforts to remove lead or insure vaccinations. Yeah. I worked hard enough, but I followed a path laid out for me, just as a climber on Everest uses base camps, fixed ropes and porters. Still a great achievement, but not a solo effort.
It's in no way stealing to require that I pay to keep the good work of the schools, infrastructure, public health, nutrition, etc...going for the rest of the country now that I've reaped (and continue to do so) the benefits.

ChristJudgeOfAll said:

Not being able to afford education is not poor. Starving to death when your bones are showing is poor. Living in a house without plumbing isn't poor. Not having clean drinking water for years is poor.

Hardly anyone in the U.S. is poor. The standard we use for measuring starvation is "food security" and we measure that by asking if families had worried about getting food within a year or so.

Jesus told us to cloth naked people. Even the poorest homeless man in the U.S. is clothed.

Jesus never told us to help people live comfortably, he told us to help the dying and starving.

Click to expand...

ChristJudgeOfAll said:

Not being able to afford education is not poor. Starving to death when your bones are showing is poor. Living in a house without plumbing isn't poor. Not having clean drinking water for years is poor.

Hardly anyone in the U.S. is poor. The standard we use for measuring starvation is "food security" and we measure that by asking if families had worried about getting food within a year or so.

Jesus told us to cloth naked people. Even the poorest homeless man in the U.S. is clothed.

Jesus never told us to help people live comfortably, he told us to help the dying and starving.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]Jesus actually told us to be a servant of men. But for the record, I would wager he meant men AND women.
Jesus also told us to have love in our HEARTS. The serving of men (and women) should be done with love and joy in our hearts. THAT'S when you know you are close to God. If helping out the poor feels like NOTHING more than an obligatory pain in your butt, you are further from God than you may think.

Chicken Little said:

that big one is the government and their PET projects and what they pour out is our lives and blood and sweat and tears.

Click to expand...

Dramatic comment but factually inaccurate given the title of the picture.

That said, I would agree that 57% of your budget probably has more than a little wiggle room for PET projects. I don't see feeding the poor, as a pet project; I see trying to make a Harry Potter style invisibility cloak a "pet project". Cool, oh my yes...but a pet project.

.

A quick question:
My brother in law ran a niche newspaper (construction based). He was doing unbelievably well. He worked 12hrs a week and he made OVER 300Gs. Unfortunately, the work he was doing with his paper was kind of "middle man" kinda stuff and the his paper ended up being made a bit superfluous.

Now he owns+manages a Papa Murphy's (really good in my mind anyways) works 60+hrs a week and says he makes about 35Gs.

I'm just having a HARD time wrapping my head around the idea that when he was making SCADS of cash, he hardly worked (some right wingers here would call him "lazy"). Now, he works a TONNE and is barely scraping by.

I thought only hard workers got rich and lazy no goodnicks were "poor" (like, still had clothes, bread, water, and a bit of dignity) but my bro-in-law seems to be the opposite. Prejudiced, ignorant right wingers, could you please help me understand?

rambot said:

I thought only hard workers got rich and lazy no goodnicks were "poor" (like, still had clothes, bread, water, and a bit of dignity) but my bro-in-law seems to be the opposite. Prejudiced, ignorant right wingers, could you please help me understand?

Click to expand...

Well now the answer has nothing to do with how much a person works, and actually has everything to do with them working a job that "anyone can do".

Just my prediction based on what people have told me before. Suddenly when presented with stories like yours, the goalposts shift from "lazy" to "unskilled".

There are no unskilled jobs. Just jobs with skills that people undervalue. That is no excuse for not paying someone a living wage.

rambot said:

A quick question:
My brother in law ran a niche newspaper (construction based). He was doing unbelievably well. He worked 12hrs a week and he made OVER 300Gs. Unfortunately, the work he was doing with his paper was kind of "middle man" kinda stuff and the his paper ended up being made a bit superfluous.

Now he owns+manages a Papa Murphy's (really good in my mind anyways) works 60+hrs a week and says he makes about 35Gs.

I'm just having a HARD time wrapping my head around the idea that when he was making SCADS of cash, he hardly worked (some right wingers here would call him "lazy"). Now, he works a TONNE and is barely scraping by.

I thought only hard workers got rich and lazy no goodnicks were "poor" (like, still had clothes, bread, water, and a bit of dignity) but my bro-in-law seems to be the opposite. Prejudiced, ignorant right wingers, could you please help me understand?

Click to expand...

I don't think most conservatives have any idea of what they're talking about. Conservative ideology these days is more about self-righteousness than reality. Dogma is ok, no matter how unfounded, so long as it makes you feel good about yourself.

I worry no one will help me understand. I may have to tag and find this post again at a later date to ask when there is a thread from someone about how lazy poor people are (it's just a matter of time, I'm sure).

The Believers Share Their Possessions

Click to expand...

Acts 4:30-35

Click to expand...

31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

33 With great power the apostles continued to testify
the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all

34 that there were no needy persons among them.
For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them,
brought the money from the sales

35 and put it at the apostles’ feet,
and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Click to expand...

- they were all filled with the Holy Spirit

- all the believers were one in heart and mind

- no one claimed that any of their possessions was their own

- they shared everything they had

- there were no needy persons among them

- it (money) was distributed to anyone who had need

Why SOCIALISM/LIBERALISM is not American - are we to conclude that the Believers sharing everything they had while under the influence of the Holy Spirit is unAmerican?

jgarden said:

- they were all filled with the Holy Spirit

- all the believers were one in heart and mind

- no one claimed that any of their possessions was their own

- they shared everything they had

- there were no needy persons among them

- it (money) was distributed to anyone who had need

Why SOCIALISM/LIBERALISM is not American - are we to conclude that the Believers sharing everything they had while under the influence of the Holy Spirit is unAmerican?

Click to expand...

Well, America isn't a Christian nation so that makes sense....

maybe a liberal socialist lawless society that protects and promotes lie, liars and thieves and is likely high most of the time .. shouldn't run anyones country.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-ohio/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
is also just the tip of the icebergs that has sunk this arrogant Titanic. bye america what are the chances that the real people who needing the stamps didn't get them or were denied them ? maybe because they weren't a favorite color or race or beliefs?

maybe a liberal socialist lawless society that protects and promotes lie, liars and thieves and is likely high most of the time .. shouldn't run anyones country.

Click to expand...

[my emphasis
It seems, at times, that you write things like that for effect and not because it's factually accurate. I think this is one of those times. What are some example countries you could offer. Cause I'd offer Norway, Sweden; Norther European countries. They are not over "lawless socities" that promote what you expect.
You haven't visited Europe have you?

and never will. you can keep it.

Chicken Little said:

and never will. you can keep it.

Click to expand...

Too safe? Not enough guns? Arrogant, happy, peace enjoying, non-fear bound citizenry just annoys you?

Chicken Little said:

and never will. you can keep it.

Click to expand...

Europe is actually pretty nice, and you tend to get killed less, especially by the cops .

Vylo said:

Europe is actually pretty nice, and you tend to get killed less, especially by the cops .

Click to expand...

rotf. give it a few more months

Chicken Little said:

rotf. give it a few more months

Click to expand...

If we give it a few more months and things turn out okay, will you change your mind?

Chicken Little said:

rotf. give it a few more months

Click to expand...

Well...since we've been ahead of them in violence for several decades I'm thinking "giving it a few more months" isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)