A verse that single-handedly destroys the dispensational delusion!

classicalhero

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On which scriptures do you base your belief that Jeremiah 31, is not the new covenant, by grace through faith in Christ? Which you call the new covenant of the Blood.
Because Jesus told us to preach the Gospel to every creature, the New covenant has God putting his faith into people and everyone will already know the LORD, but right now we have to be preaching the Gospel Jesus gave us. The New covenant everyone believes, but right now not everyone believes in God and we are meant to be preaching in season and out of season.,
 
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joshua 1 9

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One of the most common assertions of the premillennial dispensationalist today is that the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 is proof that the Jews are still "God's Chosen People," and that He still has prophetic plans for them. (This has been asserted more vigorously than ever due to the recent hostilities in the Middle East). It is claimed that God was at work bringing the Jews back to their "ancient homeland," and that they have a Biblical right to claim Palestine as their own. Are these claims correct? Was the formation of the State of Israel evidence of God's blessing? Of God's election?​
God still has a covenant with Israel, the old covenant. The new covenant is with the gentiles or those who are adopted in.​

Heb 8 "He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."​
 
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Dispy

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So "all" here means "everyone but the Jews." can you show me any other usage of the term "all" that isn't modified by "nations" that has this same connotation?

In Acts 13:14, to the rest of the chapter, Paul was speaking to Jews and proselytes in the synagogue. ALL those present were Jews or considered as a born Jew.
 
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jerry kelso

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God still has a covenant with Israel, the old covenant. The new covenant is with the gentiles or those who are adopted in.
Heb 8 "He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."​


joshua 1 9,

The covenant with Israel today is not the old covenant but they are stuck in the old testament for Moses is read to this day and they still have the veil over their head. (2 Corinthians 3:15).

A new covenant believer today that is a jew is a true jew and is in the body of Christ known as the church as Paul stated in his epistles because the church is in effect today. All who are blood washed are members of the new testament church and it started at the Day of Pentecost.
This doesn't do away with their earthly calling as the nation that will be at the head of the nations according to Isaiah 2:2-4. called Israel. Paul affirms this in Romans 9-11. The gifts and callings are with out repentance and will happen when the time of the gentiles come in and this is what random person doesn't understand.
As far as dispensations it is misunderstood. In the light of a dispensation as a stewardship cannot be proven wrong. There have been many of these in the redemptive plan of God because of gradual revelation which unfolded a little at a time. We are to learn from these dispensations of how God has dealt with men in different ways and why. The overall reason is for humans to understand how much God loves us and to prove to Satan that God can have a person with freewill choice to choose him and serve him and not turn back like he did.
Dispensational as many of other school of thoughts are not always rendered correctly in every jot and tittle. This doesn't mean that they are not right in believing that Israel still has an earthly calling and is evil.
Paul said he was given the dispensation of grace but it doesn't mean this was the only time that grace was given because grace was in every age for without it noone could have been saved in any form or any fashion from their sin. Correct context and reconciling all the scriptures to the big picture is needed and that is why we are to study to show ourselves approved. Jerry kelso
As far as the nation
 
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jerry kelso

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Is present Israel a fulfillment of prophesy?



One of the most common assertions of the premillennial dispensationalist today is that the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 is proof that the Jews are still "God's Chosen People," and that He still has prophetic plans for them. (This has been asserted more vigorously than ever due to the recent hostilities in the Middle East). It is claimed that God was at work bringing the Jews back to their "ancient homeland," and that they have a Biblical right to claim Palestine as their own. Are these claims correct? Was the formation of the State of Israel evidence of God's blessing? Of God's election?

Just what Scriptures do dispensationalists use to support these claims? How do they come to their conclusions? As you may know already, the dispensationalist uses what he calls a "literal hermeneutic." That is, he claims to interpret the words of the Bible at face value, understanding them in their "normal," everyday usage and meaning. This extremely literal hermeneutic is then used to "interpret" the prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of the return of God's people to the Holy Land. However, this literalism is also used as an excuse to ignore the plain reinterpretation by the New Testament writers of these very same prophecies. Even when the inspired writers of the New Testament give a meaning to the Old Testament. prophecies other than a "literal" one, the dispensationalist will say that this is not the complete meaning, and that these prophecies "remain to be realized for Israel."

One of the Scriptures the dispensationalist claims was fulfilled by the 1948 formation of the State of Israel is found in Ezekiel 36-37. This prophecy was given to Ezekiel during the Babylonian captivity (Ezekiel 1:1-2), and foretold the eventual return of Israel to their land. Tied in with this prophecy was the prediction of the coming Messiah (Ezekiel 38), and the inauguration of the New Covenant. As we know from both secular history and the New Testament, the people did return to the land and the Messiah did come and establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28). Despite this, dispensationalists deny fulfillment of either of these prophecies, saying they found only a "partial fulfillment" in Israel's return and Christ's first advent. They further allege that the re-gathering of Jews to form the current State of Israel is part of the final fulfillment. They say the blessings of the "Palestinian Covenant" are only now coming into existence. The promises of such passages as Deuteronomy 30 are touted as "Scriptural basis" for Israel's re-gathering. How should we answer such claims?

According to Deuteronomy 30:1-8, a necessary condition for the re-gathering of Israel to Palestine was returning to the Lord (verses 2-3). Based on this clear passage of Scripture, it can be definitely concluded that the State of Israel, which now exists, was not formed as a result of the blessings of this covenant (the "Palestinian Covenant" of the Scofield Bible).

The Jews of 1948 (except for maybe a few isolated individuals) did not turn to the Lord. And, to base the formation of Israel upon their alleged "faithfulness" to Judaism is to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of what Judaism is. Some think the Jew of today has a special advantage, perhaps even salvation without Christ, because they believe in the God of the Old Testament, and follow the Old Testament religion. This overlooks the fact that the religion of the Old Testament was based on making sacrifices for sins (Leviticus 17:11). It also ignores the statements of the New Testament that there is absolutely NO salvation outside Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:10-12), and that the Old Testament religion was no longer efficacious (Hebrews 7-10). The Lord of the New Testament is Jesus. This revelation casts light on who the Lord of the Old Testament is. For example, Peter quotes Joel 2:32 as being fulfilled in Jesus (Acts 2:21).

What shall we answer when the dispensationalist claims the existence of the State of Israel today is "proof" of God's covenant blessing upon them? With the clear backing of Scripture, we can say, "NO!" We can then point to Deuteronomy 30:1-8 as proof that the Israel of today is definitely not the Israel of the Bible! But, what about the land promised to Abraham?

Paul, in citing the promise to Abraham, does not limit the territory to Palestine: It was NOT through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith (Romans 4:13). This is an extension of the statement of Jesus in Matthew 5:5, in which the meek shall inherit not merely Palestine, but the earth. As you can see, the inheritance is for Abraham and his offspring. The dispensationalist believes Jewish people are entitled to the inheritance based on their racial extraction or ethnic heritage. But, Paul counters this idea in Galatians 3:7,29. In case he hasn't made it clear enough, Paul reiterates for those who expect some special privilege for physical descendants of Abraham: "Now to Abraham's and his seed the promises were made. He does not say, And to seeds' as of many, but as of one, And to your seed, who is Christ" (Galatians 3:16). The only way to inherit anything is in Christ! The Jewish leaders who came to John the Baptist thought the Kingdom was theirs automatically by virtue of their heritage. (Matthew 3:9). The Apostle Paul states the nature of true Jewishness in Romans 2:28,29; 9:6-8; 11:5-7.

The full scope of Israel's prophets was not nationalistic, but universal, with an increasing cosmic dimension which took in heaven and earth (Isaiah 65:17; 24:21-23). The writer of Hebrews assures them Abraham was not looking merely to Palestine for fulfillment of the promises. He looked for "a better country," and a city "whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10,16). The continuity of the Old Testament terms and Middle East images in Hebrews assures the church that God's promise has neither failed nor been postponed, but is experienced now in Christ (Hebrews 6:5), And, the land promises made to Abraham are fulfilled in the universal Kingdom of God.

In conclusion, we have studied the subject of who God's Chosen People are, and have found that, according to the Bible, Israel is now composed of all those who believe in Jesus as Messiah. It is not correct, therefore, to state that the church has REPLACED Israel. Rather, the church IS the continuity of the Old Testament Israel of God; it has only replaced the Jewish nation. There is no more "Jew" and "Gentile" racial distinctions. All nations are now a part of Spiritual Israel in Christ. Christ's kingdom is here now in fullness. All (who were a part of the true spiritual) Israel were saved and given the inheritance (Romans 11:26).

With the advent of the war in the Middle East, many people are wondering what is taking place in a prophetic sense. As preterists, we can say with assurance that the events now taking place are NOT a fulfillment of prophecy. We know that all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, at which time the New Covenant was fully established, making the Kingdom available to all who would believe in Jesus as Savior (Messiah). Some emotionalism is understandable in time of war. However, we need not fear the Great Tribulation or being "left behind" in the Rapture. We know by the time limitations recorded in the New Testament that these things have already occurred, and we are living in the new spiritual promised land.

Speaking of Jews, here is what the scripture says:

Isaiah 65:15, "And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"

Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

The above two verses were fulfilled in 70 AD, when the Jews were slayed, the temple burned down, and the Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to all who believe in Christ.

Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, Madonna, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism.

Therefore, we can clearly and confidently assert that there is no such thing as a Jewish race, nor ever can there be. Since the fall of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the nation of Israel in the first century, the nation calling itself Israel has consisted of a collection of people from nearly every nation in the world, with no relation to the twelve tribes of the historical nation known as Israel. Any attempts to state that there is, or will ever again be, a race of Israelites are proven to be futile and of no force. There is no Jewish race.

What should a follower of Christ think of Jews?

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Followers of Christ ARE Jews! Followers of Christ have not REPLACED Israel…the followers of Christ ARE Israel. Spiritual Israel.

Final Thoughts


Jews do not practice "Old Testament religion;" they are not almost Christians, lacking only acceptance of the Messiah and the New Testament. They do not worship the true God, not even the “God of the Old Testament” Jesus was quite adamant: If they had believed Moses, they would believe Him. (John 5:46-47) They don't believe the Old Testament either. The religion of Judaism is a Talmudic faith, not Biblical. Those who support, as the majority of premillenialists do, the secular nation of Israel at this time, simply because they are so-called Jews, and claim the premillenial system relies on Israel as a pivotal aspect of itself, give succor to apostates and enemies of Christ, and actually encourage them in their unbelief.

Who Are God's Chosen People?

random person,

1. A dispensation is a stewardship for a period of time and it has been shown in each age and this is how gradual revelation is known. It has covenants within this stewardship.

2. Paul was given the grace of dispensation. It was not because there was never grace but, it did involve the ministry to the gentiles as well as the understanding of the different dispensations, especially the Mosaic law.

3. Paul expressed the calling of Israel in Romans 9-11 and how God had not forget their nations calling and this is why their repentance and gifts are without repentance. This means their covenant promises according to the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are sure and will happen. When? When the time of the gentiles comes in and Christ sets up the KoH rule. Genesis 15 and Isaiah 9:6-7 and Isaiah 2:2-4.

4. The church today is being trained for rulership training positions for Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:12 that if we suffer, we shall reign. The churches role is not to be the head of the nations but Israel and the jews as a nation will not take their rightful place until the tribulation ends. The tribulation is their time of purging in order to repent and come back to God and fulfill their covenants. Daniel 9 talks about their purging and is prophetic to the future still.

5. As far as the nation of Israel becoming a nation in 1948 paves the way to the future of the nation being purged. If they were not a nation whether in 1948 or ever then you would be correct of them not having an earthly calling.
Today, Israel is not in covenant with God and many of them are said to be atheist. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3 that they still had the veil over their hearts through the reading of the old testament and today is no different as far as the nation as a whole and will be the same until the time of the fulness of the gentiles comes in.

6. You can diss dispensations but it is in the scriptures and in the correct rendering as a stewardship is throughout the plan of God. Even covenant theologians recognize these stewardships even though they believe only in 2 overall covenants. Just because they believe in 2 over all covenants doesn't mean they can not recognize all the covenants within these different point in time of how God dealt with men.

Every school of thought is not necessarily infallible, including yours of what you have presented. It behoves all of us to rightly divided the word of truth in the proper context of history and covenants and yes, even dispensations and how to reconcile all these contexts together to understand the whole context on a particular subject. Jerry kelso
 
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ScottA

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And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:30



Lets not forget the following passages:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 24:47

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 3:22-26

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:32-33,46



I say, please repent and escape from the dispensational delusion. God fulfilled His promise to Israel. Christ served Israel first, and the Gospel was first preached to them.
I guess I don't understand. Are you suggesting or claiming that there are not two parts to God's salvation plan?
 
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jerry kelso

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I guess I don't understand. Are you suggesting or claiming that there are not two parts to God's salvation plan?

scotta,

1. I have told you before there is not 2 parts to God's salvation plan ever concerning substance.

2. Genesis 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Do you think that Adam and Eve and the antediluvians understood this in its totality? Or that God would manifest in the flesh as Christ to go through his ministry and die as the sacrifice?
They only had a revelation that came through way of their conscience. Cain knew murdering was wrong because his conscience convicted him and not through a written commandment with a specific judgement attached to it. However, this conviction and its result of offending the moral law of God was prophetic in what would become the written law of Moses that had the written commandment and the written judgement.
Romans 2 shows the conscience is how and why the antediluvians will be judged accordingly.

3. Noah still had a conscience and was after the flood and the end of the age of the antediluvians.
Noah and his family were the only ones left on earth and they were to be fruit and replenish the earth. The token of the covenant was the rainbow and established between God and all of mankind. The rainbow showed that humans would never again be destroyed by a world wide flood. God brings the cloud but the bow shows his promise that the humans will not totally be totally destroyed in this manner. The blood of an eye for eye and a tooth was required and the flesh with the life which is in the blood thereof, they couldn't eat.

4. The point is that a little more revelation from God was given. God dealt with men in different ways at different junctures because of sin. The antediluvians sinned, Noah's sons multiplied and many were sinful as well as some serving God. It worked into the earth which was of one blood were influenced by Nimrod and the result was the building of the tower of Babel to build up to heaven. Because of this sin God confused their language and scattered them.

5. God always had someone that he used in furthering the redemptive plan and the next in line was Abraham who was from the Ur of the Chaldees a wicked nation and he was a gentile.

6. Abraham started the patriarchs and was a gentile and started the Jewish nation which was a new race separate from the gentiles because it was God's personal theocracy with Abraham's personal posterity which led to Egypt and sins' bondage and then the deliverance by Moses. Galatians 3:17 says the law which was the law of Moses which included the sacrificial, ceremonial, and the moral law under that context was until the seed should come. That seed was Christ and he was the turning point transition between the old and new covenant of which John the Baptist was the forerunner. Both of their messages was repentance and was to enter the earthly kingdom reign to fulfill the Abrahamic and the Davidic covenant for Israel which was eternal.

7. The transition was not Christ earthly teachings for they were the truth of the law of Moses.

8. The new covenant was the blood of Christ at Calvary and they didn't understand that message in it's totality because the law was veiled in types and shadows. The law was a schoolmaster led the children of Israel to have faith in what was written.

9. Jesus was the reality of the law and prophets and this is why they only prophesied till John. The law required a blood sacrifice of blood bulls and goats which were could only cover sins and not perfect.

10. The Messiah was the reality and had to fulfill the law and had to live by the law and he taught the law otherwise he would have been accused of false teaching.

11. Jesus required repentance and he would personally forgive sins which was different than John who baptized them in water but could not forgive sins. At the same time Jesus didn't give the full revelation of the death, burial, and resurrection because it would have been premature and he had to have them believe in him first according to what the law said. The problem was missed Isaiah 53 even after the teaching of the KoH and the KoG message which was repentance and the physical kingdom. They didn't want to repent. It was only prophesied that Israel would reject Christ and when they did Jesus began to talk more plainly about he was going to be killed by the leaders. This is why even the 12 disciples didn't even have a clue in John 6 and Matthew 16 and the full plan of God which Jesus told Peter. Even after the resurrection they couldn't make sense of it all and this is why he had to go back to the law of Moses and explain it all of what the prophets and the law said about him what had transpired in the total picture.

12. Throughout every age since Genesis 3:15 the revelation of the sacrifice grew plainer until the full manifestation after Christ died and was resurrected. The main substance of the redemptive plan was the sacrifice which was in Genesis 3:15 all the way through to Calvary was the same concerning the death, burial and resurrection. This is why there is only one gospel, but because of gradual revelation the way to be in right standing with God was different as the scriptures show. This is why the people under conscience will be judged by their conscience and not the written law and those under the written law will be judged by their revelation which was the written law and their specific judgements and the new covenant will be judged by the secrets of men. Read Romans 2.

13. If one cannot understand there is only one gospel and more than 1 revelation in how to come to that gospel according to gradual revelation is not being fair to the truth of the scriptures.
So dispensations as a stewardship is not wrong. Are their extremes in that system? Yes and so is their to any other system of thought whether dispensation, covenant and more.
People need to understand the full context on a subject and the way that it unfolded down through the ages. God didn't unfold everything at one time. This is the reason for the gradual revelation is for man to understand the full context so they will not make the same mistakes from the previous stewardship. Now if one cannot understand 1 gospel and more than 1 revelation to come to the one gospel through gradual revelation one is not being true to exegesis of the scriptures and to attack that is to try to make them say something that they are not saying such as teaching 2 different gospels. That is totally unfair to the believer and to rightly dividing the word. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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From the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible...

Revelation 14:6




gospel

Gospel. This great theme may be summarized as follows:

I. In itself, the word Gospel means good news.



II. Four forms of the Gospel are to be distinguished:

(1) The Gospel of the kingdom. This is the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth, in fulfilment of the Davidic Covenant: (2Sa_7:16): a kingdom, political, spiritual, Israelitish, universal, over which God's Son, David's heir, shall be King, and which shall be, for one thousand years, the manifestation of the righteousness of God in human affairs.

(See Scofield) - (Mat_3:2).

Two preachings of this Gospel are mentioned, one past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, continued by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. The other is yet future (Mat_24:14) during the great tribulation, and immediately preceding the coming of the King in glory.

(2) The Gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead for our justification, and that, by Him, all that believe are justified from all things. This form of the Gospel is described in many ways. It is the Gospel...

"of God" (Rom_1:1) because it originates in His love;

"of Christ" (2Co_10:14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the alone Object of Gospel faith;

of the "grace of God" (Act_20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses;

of "the glory"; (1Ti_1:11); (2Co_4:4) because it concerns Him who is in the glory, and who is bringing the many sons to glory; (Heb_2:10);

of "our salvation" (Eph_1:13) because it is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"; (Rom_1:16);

of "the uncircumcision" (Gal_2:7) because it saves wholly apart from forms and ordinances of "peace" (Eph_6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the sinner and God, and imparts inward peace.

(3) The everlasting Gospel. (Rev_14:6). This is to be preached to the earth-dwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgment of the nations (Mat_15:31). It is neither the Gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribulation, have been saved; (Rev_7:9-14); (Luk_21:28); (Psa_96:11-13); (Isa_35:4-10).

(4) That which Paul calls, "my Gospel" (Rom_2:16). This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the outcalling of the church, her relationships, position, privileges, and responsibility. It is the distinctive truth of Ephesians and Colossians, but interpenetrates all of Paul's writings.



III. There is "another Gospel" (Gal_1:6); (2Co_11:4) "which is not another," but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one -- it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and mingles with grace some kind of human merit. In Galatia it was law, in Colosse fanaticism (Col_2:18); etc. In any form, its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God.



angel

(See Scofield) - (Heb_1:4).
.
 
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jerry kelso

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From the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible...

Revelation 14:6




gospel

Gospel. This great theme may be summarized as follows:

I. In itself, the word Gospel means good news.



II. Four forms of the Gospel are to be distinguished:

(1) The Gospel of the kingdom. This is the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth, in fulfilment of the Davidic Covenant: (2Sa_7:16): a kingdom, political, spiritual, Israelitish, universal, over which God's Son, David's heir, shall be King, and which shall be, for one thousand years, the manifestation of the righteousness of God in human affairs.

(See Scofield) - (Mat_3:2).

Two preachings of this Gospel are mentioned, one past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, continued by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. The other is yet future (Mat_24:14) during the great tribulation, and immediately preceding the coming of the King in glory.

(2) The Gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead for our justification, and that, by Him, all that believe are justified from all things. This form of the Gospel is described in many ways. It is the Gospel...

"of God" (Rom_1:1) because it originates in His love;

"of Christ" (2Co_10:14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the alone Object of Gospel faith;

of the "grace of God" (Act_20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses;

of "the glory"; (1Ti_1:11); (2Co_4:4) because it concerns Him who is in the glory, and who is bringing the many sons to glory; (Heb_2:10);

of "our salvation" (Eph_1:13) because it is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"; (Rom_1:16);

of "the uncircumcision" (Gal_2:7) because it saves wholly apart from forms and ordinances of "peace" (Eph_6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the sinner and God, and imparts inward peace.

(3) The everlasting Gospel. (Rev_14:6). This is to be preached to the earth-dwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgment of the nations (Mat_15:31). It is neither the Gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribulation, have been saved; (Rev_7:9-14); (Luk_21:28); (Psa_96:11-13); (Isa_35:4-10).

(4) That which Paul calls, "my Gospel" (Rom_2:16). This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the outcalling of the church, her relationships, position, privileges, and responsibility. It is the distinctive truth of Ephesians and Colossians, but interpenetrates all of Paul's writings.



III. There is "another Gospel" (Gal_1:6); (2Co_11:4) "which is not another," but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one -- it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and mingles with grace some kind of human merit. In Galatia it was law, in Colosse fanaticism (Col_2:18); etc. In any form, its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God.



angel

(See Scofield) - (Heb_1:4).
.

baberean2,

1. This is what I have been saying concerning the physical reign and Israel proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom in the physical aspect concerning the covenants to Israel as the head of the nations and the millennial government on earth. Isaiah 2:2-4

2. The gospel of grace had to be believed in every age but the revelation of how to come to that gospel of grace was different because of gradual revelation.

3. This gospel of grace even though not in the complete revelation in Jesus day had to be accepted by repenting for entrance into the physical kingdom. The spiritual aspect of the gospel of grace before Calvary still was a condition in order to be accepted into the physical kingdom so it was a part of the KoH message and will be a part of the gospel of the kingdom in the tribulation.

4. Paul in Colossians and Galatians is battling judaizers that were always trying to get gentiles to live the old covenant law which is a whole unit of rule of life. Physical circumcision was of the law of Moses but not in the new covenant. They were trying to be justified by the law of Moses which was abolished at Calvary and that is why one falls from grace. It was not about men's traditions outside of the context of Moses law. It was things in the Mosaic law that were valid in that time but were not under the new covenant of liberty.

5. The covenants were whole units of rule of life. The moral law was in every age but was not the whole of covenant and had a different revelation of how it was responded to and no specific and specific judgements in certain ages. One can be moral and not be a christian but doing the commandments was a weakness in the ethic and spirit and had to be changed in the rule of life. This is why just to say the only difference is between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law is not completely right or true.

6. Any human merit under the new covenant is wrong and under the law they were not to have human merit either but because of the weakness of the commandment which could only say Thou shalt not and not having the power to help follow through with the commandment and the law of sin and death taking advantage of it and making them live to the frailty of man is why this part of the rule of life had to be done away with and why the whole law of commandments known as the whole law of Moses had run its course and had to be done away with and be replaced by the reality and the covenant of the person of Jesus Christ who died for sin and resurrected to live forevermore in all power and authority and lives in the throne room to ever intercede.

7. Being a christian is not what you are doing but being who you are in Christ. Being will be doing of a pure motive of love. Doing to being will breed more human merit or at least human effort. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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A single verse that destroys the Dispensational Delusion...


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Anyone who claims that those above who "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" are not Christians, are not dealing with reality.

They have been so indoctrinated into John Darby's doctrine that they cannot see what is plainly written in God's Word or feel compelled to explain it away in order to hold onto the doctrine...

The Two Peoples of God, Two Plans of God, Two Kingdoms of God doctrine attempts to provide a future plan of Salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found in the Savior's own words in Matthew 26:28. It is fulfilled at Hebrews 8:6 because of the last words on the Cross at John 19:30.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's Plan.

The Church is the Plan.

The New Covenant was first accepted by Israelites like the Apostle Paul. Romans 11:1
3,000 accepted it on the day of Pentecost.
The Gentiles were grafted into the New Covenant among the faithful Israelites. Romans 11:24
Salvation only comes from being grafted into the Olive Tree of Romans 11.
The covenant at Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,




Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

.

 
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clemenslee

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A single verse that destroys the Dispensational Delusion...


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Anyone who claims that those above who "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" are not Christians, are not dealing with reality.

They have been so indoctrinated into John Darby's doctrine that they cannot see what is plainly written in God's Word or feel compelled to explain it away in order to hold onto the doctrine...

The Two Peoples of God, Two Plans of God, Two Kingdoms of God doctrine attempts to provide a future plan of Salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found in the Savior's own words in Matthew 26:28. It is fulfilled at Hebrews 8:6 because of the last words on the Cross at John 19:30.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's Plan.

The Church is the Plan.

The New Covenant was first accepted by Israelites like the Apostle Paul. Romans 11:1
3,000 accepted it on the day of Pentecost.
The Gentiles were grafted into the New Covenant among the faithful Israelites. Romans 11:24
Salvation only comes from being grafted into the Olive Tree of Romans 11.
The covenant at Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,




Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.



.

I agree and the following is a post that I posted in another thread that might be of some relevance here.

I know this is a old thread, but I can't help but notice, maybe I overlooked it. Hosea was never quoted as proof of the separation as well as what was to become of the so called lost tribes (10 tribes/Israel). There seems to be a lot of confusion as them actually being lost. To make clear I absolutely agree that there are 2 separate houses, and both make up the whole house of Israel. You cannot lump all 12 tribes together as being the Jews.

The problem I think that many who refute the Idea that Israel (10 tribes) are NOT lost is because they are looking for them to still be known by NAME as ISRAEL. This, I think is where the confusion lies. We must understand that the 10 tribes after they we scattered in the NATIONS that they were NO LONGER KNOWN as ISRAEL. After they were taken and dispersed by the Assyrians their Identity as Gods People, as having the name Israel was lost to history, but God said that, in the place that they were scattered to, They would have a NEW NAME, SONS OF THE LIVING GOD! Lets look at Hosea to lay this out.

1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. (The Lord himself referred to them as separate houses, You cannot say Judah (Jews) and Israel (Hebrews are the same) Together they do make up the WHOLE HOUSE. I will take what the Lord says not man!)

2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms (The Whole House of Israel) and children of whoredoms (Judah and Israel): for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel (Means to Scatter); for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel (Scatter) upon the house of Jehu (Judah), and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel (10 Tribes/Jezreel).

5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel (The 10 Tribes) in the valley of Jezreel (Scatter).

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah (Means Not having Mercy): for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel (10 Tribes); but I will utterly take them away (Scatter them through the Nations).

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah (God never Divorced Judah, They were never lost to history), and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah (10 tribes), she conceived, and bare a son.

9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi (Means Not my People): for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea (The 10 tribes will not be a few in number where they are scattered to, So you have to look for a Large body of people, The Jews have never been that large in number), which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people (Loammi, 10 Tribes), there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. (Israel the 10 Tribes lost their Identity in carrying the NAME ISRAEL, but now have a NEW NAME, SONS OF THE LIVING GOD)

The 10 Lost Tribes are no longer known as Israel by name, but now are known as Sons of the Living God. Who is that? It is none other than the NATIONS (Gentile/Goyim). Who are Sons of the Living God? None other than Christians, Who may or may not be direct descendants of the Tribes of Israel! Now that being said, do not accuse me of a replacement theology, I am in no way saying that the Whole Nation of Israel All tribes are replaced by the Church or vice versa, They are simply one and the same niether one replacing the other. Its what they became! Sons of the Living God! They became a people that had NO Mercy of God, just like the Nations that they were scattered to, To having obtained Mercy through the Blood of Christ! Who is the True Israel! No other Nations brought the Gospel to the entire world like the Western Nations.

If you can understand this, then you will truly know what it means when Paul said in Romans 11:11 - 11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Whose fall is Paul referring to? Its his kinsman - Who are his kinsman (Paul was a Jew of Judah/Benjamine). By the fall of the Jews for rejecting Christ Salvation came to the Gentiles. Who are the Gentiles? The Nations who did not have any Mercy from God - What house of Israel was scattered and became PART of the Nations not having obtained Mercy? None other than the 10 Lost Tribes. Now you should know who the LOST SHEEP are! Now God will use the NATIONS/10 TRIBES to Provoke JUDAH to envy. Because of their Rebellion, God counted them also in disbelief. They didn't lose their Identity as Israel but They also need the Mercy of God for Salvation, which is through the Blood of Christ.

What confusion this topic has brought to the Church to divide and Conquer, especially concerning these Last Days. The entire Bible has always been about Gods People Israel and the Mending together of a Family Fued! When the Truth is, that we want to in our Humanistic desires say who can and cannot be apart of the Glorious Royal Family Israel Which is Christ and separate the two. We get things Like the Church will be raptured and the Jews will be left behind to go through the Tribulation. What nonsense. When will we realize that the house of Judah are our Kinsman whether or not you are a direct blood line or not. That we are all one under true Israel which is Christ! God set the record straight That he can make the body of Israel consist of whom every he wants!
 
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jerry kelso

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A single verse that destroys the Dispensational Delusion...


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Anyone who claims that those above who "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" are not Christians, are not dealing with reality.

They have been so indoctrinated into John Darby's doctrine that they cannot see what is plainly written in God's Word or feel compelled to explain it away in order to hold onto the doctrine...

The Two Peoples of God, Two Plans of God, Two Kingdoms of God doctrine attempts to provide a future plan of Salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found in the Savior's own words in Matthew 26:28. It is fulfilled at Hebrews 8:6 because of the last words on the Cross at John 19:30.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's Plan.

The Church is the Plan.

The New Covenant was first accepted by Israelites like the Apostle Paul. Romans 11:1
3,000 accepted it on the day of Pentecost.
The Gentiles were grafted into the New Covenant among the faithful Israelites. Romans 11:24
Salvation only comes from being grafted into the Olive Tree of Romans 11.
The covenant at Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,




Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

.

baberean,

1. Dispensational delusion? 1 verse overcome the fact about what a dispensation is as a stewardship? If that is it then you are far off.

2. We overcome by the blood now and there are martyrs even today.

3. I am not here to necessarily uphold John Darby but that doesn't destroy anything about dispensations.

4. 2 Peoples of God? They will all be saved saints and both will reign in the kingdom. They just happen to have different callings of authority. The jews will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 and Jerusalem will be the capital of the earth. Even Abraham will participate with Israel and David will be king over Israel and Christ will be supreme ruler on earth and the church will have rulership positions in the KOH and the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes. Do you just not read your bible? It is plain as a nose on your face.

5. 2 Plans of God? Are you blind and cannot comprehend. I have already showed by scripture that there is only 1 redemptive plan of God that started by prophecy in Genesis 3:15? It unfolded through covenants and stewardships of man's relationship with God and the REVELATION about GOD'S REDEMPTIVE PLAN CAME THROUGH GRADUAL REVELATION AND NOT ALL AT ONCE.

6. Everyone in each age had to be saved by grace through faith for it took unmerited favor of God to save a person. It was by faith through the revelation of how to come to God and this is how and why they will be judged differently than different ages.

7. Jesus was the reality of what the types and shadows of the law showed. He fulfilled the law and then became the new covenant at the cross. His teachings were the law in the KOH and the KOG message and all the jews were required to believe in the Messiah and repent and that he would forgive their sins and they would gain entrance into the physical KOH. They still couldn't understand the death, burial, and resurrection message fully after he arose. He went back over what the law and prophets had said about him and what it meant and he stressed the importance of his finished work in his name would be the message and not judaism with circumcision etc. So there is one gospel of redemption and more than 1 revelation of what the cross was in the total picture. There was a partial revelation of redemption that got clearer as time went on.
Also, those jews were not perfected and if Christ had not died no one would be saved. Those old testament saints would have been held in limbo. The old testament saints and the new testament saints were perfected together. This is one reason that the revelation was different of how to come to salvation and what it was based on. THE SIGN OF THE OLD COVENANT WAS PHYSICAL CIRCUMCISION AND THE SIGN OF THE NEW COVENANT AND WHAT OUR SALVATION IS BUILT UPON IS THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST.

8. 2 Kingdoms of God? There was 2 kingdoms in Jesus message on earth for the jews. The physical KOH reign on earth and the spiritual Kingdom of God that comes without observation and was the condition of obedience for them to come back to God.

9. Gentiles will be in the physical KOH reign for this is what we are being trained for 2 Timothy 2:12. The spiritual KOG is the kingdom of his dear son in which we are translated into. Read your bible.
A salvation plan outside of the New Covenant? Are you that dull of understanding?

10. The jews today for the most part of the nation are backslidden and they will be in the tribulation.

11. Jeremiah 31 says that the Lord will put his law into their hearts. This is talking only to the jewish nation in this context. Because Israel was only taught the law and to believe in Christ without the real knowledge of Christ death and resurrection they could not believe in the new covenant before the cross. This is why Jesus teachings were not new covenant. He had to die before anyone whether jew or gentile could be saved in complete perfection.

12. The new covenant still came because Jesus was to die for the world and the jews missed the suffering savior and just wanted a conquering King.

13. The new covenant of the death, burial, and resurrection was made with the world for God didn't want anyone to perish. It was not made with the nation of Israel and this is why they could not fulfill their eternal covenants of Abraham and David. Instead, Jesus pronounced judgement over the nation Matthew 23:37-39.

14. In the future tribulation the jews will understand he whom they pierced and will understand the death, burial, and resurrection and the gospel of the KOH and the death, burial and resurrection will be preached throughout all the nations of the world. The world will hate the jews then even more than now and God will fulfill what was supposed to happen in Jeremiah 31 the first time he came and it will fulfill Hebrews 8:7-13. Then the jewish nation will be at the head of the nations.

15. The church is not a parenthesis in God's plan for it was ordained from before the world. Read your word and the correct context and logic to the scripture.

16. The new testament was Christ blood that he shed for remission of sins.

17. The early church was mostly jews from the days of Jesus.

18. The gentiles were proselyted into Judaism and they were present at the Day of Pentecost. The gentiles were grafted in when Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean which was at least 8-10 years after the DOP. Paul also had the revelation and God called him to a ministry to the gentiles for the jews would not listen to him. Most of them wanted to mix in the law and even dominate with the law and the leaders didn't like the message of the cross and resurrection.

19. Hebrews 13:20 is the everlasting covenant.

20. Preaching another gospel was about those who were leaving the gospel of Christ which was the message of the death and resurrection which Paul said was the only gospel. They were trying to have those people justified by the law of Moses and this is why the person that does this are fallen from grace.

21. You need to get out of church doctrine and into the word of God and the correct biblical history and context and dispensations and covenants and the understanding of gradual revelation. Israel are the only physical nation promises through covenant promised to be at the head of the nations. You need to quit making the same accusations that I have already proved your were wrong about what I said. Are you going to stand up for the Word of God and what it really says or your church position? Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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11. Jeremiah 31 says that the Lord will put his law into their hearts. This is talking only to the jewish nation in this context. Because Israel was only taught the law and to believe in Christ without the real knowledge of Christ death and resurrection they could not believe in the new covenant before the cross. This is why Jesus teachings were not new covenant. He had to die before anyone whether jew or gentile could be saved in complete perfection.

12. The new covenant still came because Jesus was to die for the world and the jews missed the suffering savior and just wanted a conquering King.

13. The new covenant of the death, burial, and resurrection was made with the world for God didn't want anyone to perish. It was not made with the nation of Israel and this is why they could not fulfill their eternal covenants of Abraham and David. Instead, Jesus pronounced judgement over the nation Matthew 23:37-39.

14. In the future tribulation the jews will understand he whom they pierced and will understand the death, burial, and resurrection and the gospel of the KOH and the death, burial and resurrection will be preached throughout all the nations of the world. The world will hate the jews then even more than now and God will fulfill what was supposed to happen in Jeremiah 31 the first time he came and it will fulfill Hebrews 8:7-13. Then the jewish nation will be at the head of the nations.
My comments are in Bold Blue.

11. Jeremiah 31 says that the Lord will put his law into their hearts. This is talking only to the jewish nation in this context. Because Israel was only taught the law and to believe in Christ without the real knowledge of Christ death and resurrection they could not believe in the new covenant before the cross. This is why Jesus teachings were not new covenant. He had to die before anyone whether jew or gentile could be saved in complete perfection.

The New Covenant which is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6, is the promise to Abraham that all of the world would be blessed through his seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16
It is not meant "only" for the Jewish nation, since Christ spoke the covenant in His own words at Matthew 26:28.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



The idea that the teachings of Jesus are not New Covenant is more of Darby's nonsense.
The whole New Testament is about the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.



12. The new covenant still came because Jesus was to die for the world and the jews missed the suffering savior and just wanted a conquering King.

All of the Jews did not miss the suffering savior, since the early Church was almost completely Jewish.
Your statement is not based on fact.


13. The new covenant of the death, burial, and resurrection was made with the world for God didn't want anyone to perish. It was not made with the nation of Israel and this is why they could not fulfill their eternal covenants of Abraham and David. Instead, Jesus pronounced judgement over the nation Matthew 23:37-39.

Jesus Christ is the New Covenant eternal promise to Abraham.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.





14. In the future tribulation the jews will understand he whom they pierced and will understand the death, burial, and resurrection and the gospel of the KOH and the death, burial and resurrection will be preached throughout all the nations of the world. The world will hate the jews then even more than now and God will fulfill what was supposed to happen in Jeremiah 31 the first time he came and it will fulfill Hebrews 8:7-13. Then the jewish nation will be at the head of the nations.

The Jews need to be grafted back into the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, through the covenant in Romans 11:27, which is the New Covenant "now" in effect.

God's end-time goal is not the Jewish nation. It is the Church of Jesus Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together through the Blood of the New Covenant.

You keep telling me to read my Bible, but the best Hebrew and Greek scholars read the Bible for the first 1800 years of the Church and never came up with John Darby's doctrine.

 
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jerry kelso

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My comments are in Bold Blue.

11. Jeremiah 31 says that the Lord will put his law into their hearts. This is talking only to the jewish nation in this context. Because Israel was only taught the law and to believe in Christ without the real knowledge of Christ death and resurrection they could not believe in the new covenant before the cross. This is why Jesus teachings were not new covenant. He had to die before anyone whether jew or gentile could be saved in complete perfection.

The New Covenant which is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6, is the promise to Abraham that all of the world would be blessed through his seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16
It is not meant "only" for the Jewish nation, since Christ spoke the covenant in His own words at Matthew 26:28.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



The idea that the teachings of Jesus are not New Covenant is more of Darby's nonsense.
The whole New Testament is about the New Blood Covenant of the Messiah.



12. The new covenant still came because Jesus was to die for the world and the jews missed the suffering savior and just wanted a conquering King.

All of the Jews did not miss the suffering savior, since the early Church was almost completely Jewish.
Your statement is not based on fact.


13. The new covenant of the death, burial, and resurrection was made with the world for God didn't want anyone to perish. It was not made with the nation of Israel and this is why they could not fulfill their eternal covenants of Abraham and David. Instead, Jesus pronounced judgement over the nation Matthew 23:37-39.

Jesus Christ is the New Covenant eternal promise to Abraham.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.





14. In the future tribulation the jews will understand he whom they pierced and will understand the death, burial, and resurrection and the gospel of the KOH and the death, burial and resurrection will be preached throughout all the nations of the world. The world will hate the jews then even more than now and God will fulfill what was supposed to happen in Jeremiah 31 the first time he came and it will fulfill Hebrews 8:7-13. Then the jewish nation will be at the head of the nations.

The Jews need to be grafted back into the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, through the covenant in Romans 11:27, which is the New Covenant "now" in effect.

God's end-time goal is not the Jewish nation. It is the Church of Jesus Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together through the Blood of the New Covenant.

You keep telling me to read my Bible, but the best Hebrew and Greek scholars read the Bible for the first 1800 years of the Church and never came up with John Darby's doctrine.



baberean2,

1. I must say that I am shocked at your lack of comprehension.
The law was all that they knew but many still had a problem of knowing what was allowed and what was not allowed with both judaizers and the apostles according to gradual revelation.

2. I told you they missed the suffering savior of which they didn't understand because they were focused on the physical kingdom and getting out from under oppression of Rome. They weren't concerned about their heart.
Jesus didn't preach to the jews that they had to believe in him crucified and rising again in the KOH and the KOG message. If they knew plainly that was the way to be saved they would have had him crucified right then.

3. The suffering savior missed was in Jesus ministry not in the early church so you misconstrue what I have said when I have said it more than once. Your accusation is wrong again because you are into your doctrine instead of the word.

4. The new covenant in Jeremiah was only offered to the jewish nation because there was no church.
The new covenant was going to happen because Jesus had to die for the whole world and Israel was prophesied to reject Christ.

5. Hebrews 8:6-13 is talking about the new covenant to Hebrews and though the new covenant has come in and replaced the old covenant it has not been fulfilled with Israel the nation according to their covenants.
I have quoted Matthew 26:28 so we are not talking about the new covenant itself being only for the jews. I said it was offered first to the jewish nation for there was no new testament church at that time. The cross was after the rejection of Israel the nation and for the whole world as ordained before the foundation of the world. So the new covenant was for the world.

6. The new covenant in the context of Israel's calling is future and that is a fact and you can't prove it wrong. Quit misconstruing what I say and what the scripture says just to prove your wrong understanding of the context.

7. The whole earth will be blessed in Abraham and the church will be blessed as kings, priests and the rulers to come in the kingdom but Israel the nation will be at the head of the nations.


8. Israel has an earthly calling as the head of the nations. The church will have rulership positions in this kingdom but we will also have a heavenly calling that Israel will not have and the Holy City will come down and God will tabernacle with men and the nations of the earth will come into the glory of the Holy City. Quit misconstruing everything that I say according to the word.

You are free to believe whatever you want but quit being unfair by misconstruing what I say. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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6. The new covenant in the context of Israel's calling is future and that is a fact and you can't prove it wrong. Quit misconstruing what I say and what the scripture says just to prove your wrong understanding of the context.

7. The whole earth will be blessed in Abraham and the church will be blessed as kings, priests and the rulers to come in the kingdom but Israel the nation will be at the head of the nations.


8. Israel has an earthly calling as the head of the nations. The church will have rulership positions in this kingdom but we will also have a heavenly calling that Israel will not have and the Holy City will come down and God will tabernacle with men and the nations of the earth will come into the glory of the Holy City. Quit misconstruing everything that I say according to the word.

Since the covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6, it is not waiting on a future fulfillment. It was in effect at the time the Book of Hebrews was written.

You continue to fail to distinguish between Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.



Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is only One People of God.

God does not have an earthly people which is separate from a heavenly people.

This is one of Darby and Scofield's greatest errors.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are synonymous.

 
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jerry kelso

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Since the covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6, it is not waiting on a future fulfillment. It was in effect at the time the Book of Hebrews was written.

You continue to fail to distinguish between Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.



Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is only One People of God.

God does not have an earthly people which is separate from a heavenly people.

This is one of Darby and Scofield's greatest errors.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are synonymous.


baberean,

1. The book of Hebrews was written so the jews would clearly understand the difference between the old and the new covenant for there was much misconceptions and misunderstandings.

2. Jeremiah 31:31-32 is the new covenant offered only to Israel at that time for there was no church. This is a fact.
Hebrews 9:15 says that Christ died for the sins of the first testament and didn't mention any other. This is a fact.

3. Romans 11:27 is talking about the new covenant that happened at Calvary and that is true. But the context of that passage was that Israel the nation was blinded and would be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. It could not be talking about an individual jew because the eternal covenant of the Kingdom of Heaven was with the nation of Israel. The fulness of the gentiles will not come in until Christ comes back and sets up the kingdom when the government will be upon his shoulders literally and the kingdoms of this world have become Christ Revelation 11:15. You need to read your bible with the correct understanding of the correct context.

4. All Israel will be saved when the deliverer comes out of Sion and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Sion with an S is the heavenly Sion and not the earthly Mt. Zion. This is the same Mt. Sion as in Hebrews 12:22; mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem. Read your bible and learn the correct definitions and context. Verse 27 time factor is when Christ comes back to earth and the jews see him whom they had pierced.

5. Hebrews 8:6-13; The author of Hebrews was showing that indeed the old covenant that they were under from Moses had to be replaced by a new one for it was faultless and that is a fact. If it was not faultless there would have been no reason to seek for a second covenant called the new covenant. This is a fact.

6. Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 both are speaking to the house of Israel and Judah. Israel and Judah are not the church of today. They were the ones split historically and will be the 2 sticks to join together not the church of today.

7. In this new covenant he would write his laws in their minds and write them on their hearts and he would be to them a God and they shall be to him a people. This never happened for they rejected Christ and Christ pronounced judgement on them before the Day of Pentecost and which happened in 70 A.D.
It was talking about the whole nation of Israel and not the individual jew in the early church. Paul left the jews because they wouldn't listen to the truth of what happened at Calvary and the difference between the law and grace ages.

8. You claim that Israel was given another chance to receive the KOH which is no where stated and Jesus answered the disciples question about whether or not the Kingdom would be restored to Israel and not the church. Jesus said, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So there is no declaration of a second chance for Israel to receive the KOH as you suggest.


9. Israel of the flesh will be that way in the tribulation until they repent. So I am not confused between the two and once again you misconstrue what I have said. Please stop doing that.


10. I have never said there was more than one people of God in the overall picture concerning redemption. Concerning race in relation to covenants there are jews as the head of the nations and David as the King over Israel and Abraham's seed is both Israel and the church spiritually. Physically, as in land and the kingdom over the earth; and as the new Jerusalem will be the capitol on earth is Israel's according to their covenant by God. Physical rule with the church is what we are being trained for right now and will do in the millennial kingdom. Are you going to tell God that he can't have one group of his one people called saints where and what they will do and help with etc?


11. The earthly calling of Israel has to do with the government over the earthly people for 1000 years to begin with to rid sin and rebellion. The heavenly calling has to do with our responsibilities on earth and around the universe. Both parties are still one people of God for they both are saved but have different occupations.


12. I am not concerned about Darby or Scofield and don't agree with everything they had to say.
I am not inundated or confused or so caught up in their teaching as I am in the bible and what the truth is according to the word. Your constant unbelief in the truth lends the perception of your belief in your church doctrine more than the word of God because you uphold that church doctrine. Your accusation of the kingdoms being synonymous and your refusal of the distinctions gives the perception of being anti-semitic and replacement theology.

13. Even the believing jews believe in the distinctions and know the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are eternal and Israel will come into the covenant in the future. And yet so many want to say it's all over for Israel and was at Calvary or 70 A.D. This is nothing less than absurd according to the scripture.


14. I don't have to have Darby or Scofield for believing in what a dispensation is and I had never read their full take of their position. I listen to many different positions but I have learned how to rightly divide the word and I can sense when I need to listen to someone who makes sense to the scripture or not. This doesn't mean that I am carried away with every wind of doctrine for I do not. I do not claim to be an Island to myself and I know and respect many teachers even if they don't hold the same position.

15. I try my best to be fair because I know there are two sides to a coin and the evidence has to be weighed on both sides. I guard against having tunnel vision and do not believe in misconstruing people's words. You ought to try to do the same for you have misconstrued most of what I have said and have accused me that I believe in something I don't.
As I have said before you can believe whatever you want but be fair in exegesis and in what people say. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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1. The book of Hebrews was written so the jews would clearly understand the difference between the old and the new covenant for there was much misconceptions and misunderstandings.
Jerry, The Book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians, who were Israelites in the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, as the Church.

2. Jeremiah 31:31-32 is the new covenant offered only to Israel at that time for there was no church. This is a fact.
Hebrews 9:15 says that Christ died for the sins of the first testament and didn't mention any other. This is a fact.
When the Church started it was made up almost only of faithful Israelites. This is a fact ignored by Dispensationalists.


3. Romans 11:27 is talking about the new covenant that happened at Calvary and that is true. But the context of that passage was that Israel the nation was blinded and would be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. It could not be talking about an individual jew because the eternal covenant of the Kingdom of Heaven was with the nation of Israel. The fulness of the gentiles will not come in until Christ comes back and sets up the kingdom when the government will be upon his shoulders literally and the kingdoms of this world have become Christ Revelation 11:15. You need to read your bible with the correct understanding of the correct context.
Part of the Israelites were blinded and part were not blinded. Romans 11:1
Again you are attempting to ignore the faithful Israelites in the Olive Tree.
I am reading my Bible, just as it is written.
Jesus Christ is Israel.


4. All Israel will be saved when the deliverer comes out of Sion and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Sion with an S is the heavenly Sion and not the earthly Mt. Zion. This is the same Mt. Sion as in Hebrews 12:22; mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem. Read your bible and learn the correct definitions and context. Verse 27 time factor is when Christ comes back to earth and the jews see him whom they had pierced.
You are changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "when", which is an adverb of time, in Romans 11:26, to make John Darby's doctrine work.
This is a corruption of God's Word.


5. Hebrews 8:6-13; The author of Hebrews was showing that indeed the old covenant that they were under from Moses had to be replaced by a new one for it was faultless and that is a fact. If it was not faultless there would have been no reason to seek for a second covenant called the new covenant. This is a fact.
This is the New Blood Covenant spoken by the words of Jesus, which is "now" in effect.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



6. Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 both are speaking to the house of Israel and Judah. Israel and Judah are not the church of today. They were the ones split historically and will be the 2 sticks to join together not the church of today.
The Church today is made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together into the New Covenant.
Your statement is not based on fact.


7. In this new covenant he would write his laws in their minds and write them on their hearts and he would be to them a God and they shall be to him a people. This never happened for they rejected Christ and Christ pronounced judgement on them before the Day of Pentecost and which happened in 70 A.D.
It was talking about the whole nation of Israel and not the individual jew in the early church. Paul left the jews because they wouldn't listen to the truth of what happened at Calvary and the difference between the law and grace ages.
He writes his laws inside of us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
It refers to only a remnant.


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.




8. You claim that Israel was given another chance to receive the KOH which is no where stated and Jesus answered the disciples question about whether or not the Kingdom would be restored to Israel and not the church. Jesus said, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So there is no declaration of a second chance for Israel to receive the KOH as you suggest.
They can only receive the kingdom as individuals who accept Christ.

9. Israel of the flesh will be that way in the tribulation until they repent. So I am not confused between the two and once again you misconstrue what I have said. Please stop doing that.


10. I have never said there was more than one people of God in the overall picture concerning redemption. Concerning race in relation to covenants there are jews as the head of the nations and David as the King over Israel and Abraham's seed is both Israel and the church spiritually. Physically, as in land and the kingdom over the earth; and as the new Jerusalem will be the capitol on earth is Israel's according to their covenant by God. Physical rule with the church is what we are being trained for right now and will do in the millennial kingdom. Are you going to tell God that he can't have one group of his one people called saints where and what they will do and help with etc?
The two peoples of God doctrine was clearly taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer and others, who have been the chief promoters of the doctrine you are promoting.


Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.





“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.



Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25



11. The earthly calling of Israel has to do with the government over the earthly people for 1000 years to begin with to rid sin and rebellion. The heavenly calling has to do with our responsibilities on earth and around the universe. Both parties are still one people of God for they both are saved but have different occupations.
They are all united through Christ into one body.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.



12. I am not concerned about Darby or Scofield and don't agree with everything they had to say.
I am not inundated or confused or so caught up in their teaching as I am in the bible and what the truth is according to the word. Your constant unbelief in the truth lends the perception of your belief in your church doctrine more than the word of God because you uphold that church doctrine. Your accusation of the kingdoms being synonymous and your refusal of the distinctions gives the perception of being anti-semitic and replacement theology.
Since my wife and I support two ministries which are now taking the Gospel to the Jewish people, you may want to try that comment on someone else.
I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible study.


13. Even the believing jews believe in the distinctions and know the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are eternal and Israel will come into the covenant in the future. And yet so many want to say it's all over for Israel and was at Calvary or 70 A.D. This is nothing less than absurd according to the scripture.
Salvation has always been on an individual basis, through faith.


14. I don't have to have Darby or Scofield for believing in what a dispensation is and I had never read their full take of their position. I listen to many different positions but I have learned how to rightly divide the word and I can sense when I need to listen to someone who makes sense to the scripture or not. This doesn't mean that I am carried away with every wind of doctrine for I do not. I do not claim to be an Island to myself and I know and respect many teachers even if they don't hold the same position.
Without Darby and Scofield, you would not be promoting their doctrine, since nobody found it in the Bible before they promoted the doctrine.

15. I try my best to be fair because I know there are two sides to a coin and the evidence has to be weighed on both sides. I guard against having tunnel vision and do not believe in misconstruing people's words. You ought to try to do the same for you have misconstrued most of what I have said and have accused me that I believe in something I don't.
As I have said before you can believe whatever you want but be fair in exegesis and in what people say.
There is only one side to the coin. It is what is plainly written in God's Word.

Jerry kelso
 
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Hank77

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2. Jeremiah 31:31-32 is the new covenant offered only to Israel at that time for there was no church. This is a fact.
Number one, God has always had people who were His people, His Church/Assembly/Body/Elect. Paul tells us this in Romans where he says that just during Elias time He had His elect.

Jeremiah 31 is a prophecy and yes God says Israel and Judah. Now go read Torah and see who is included in the nation/commonwealth of Israel. How did a gentile become a member of the nation of Israel before the new covenant came into effect?
Hebrews 9:15 says that Christ died for the sins of the first testament and didn't mention any other. This is a fact.
Hebrews 9 is explaining how when the Christ died His sacrifice covered the sins of the OT saints, not just for those that came after the Cross. The blood of bulls and goats as the victims for man's sin was not sufficient. The death/blood of an animal could not fulfill the requirements needed to cover man's sin. It was only temporary until the Christ was sacrificed as the true Passover Lamb. But when that happened the sins of the OT saints were covered by the blood of the Christ, which was not temporary. This is what the author was explaining to the Hebrew children.

Put yourself in the sandals of a Hebrew person who is hearing the Gospel of the Christ, how it is His blood that is the only atonement for sin. I'd be thinking well what about Abel, Job, Noah, Abraham, and my own great-grandfather who believed what God and Moses had said? They, by faith, made atonement with sacrifices of animals like God commanded, what about them, how can they be saved if the old covenants sacrifices were not sufficient?
The blood of the Christ manifested covers all the sins of those who believe and obey by faith, before the Cross and after the Cross.
 
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MWood

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Jer.31 and Heb.8 are the same Covenant. They are about Israel and Juda. They are about the Covenant being written on the heart and in the mind. They are about not having to remind every man our neighbor and every man our brother to know the Lord, for we will all know the Lord.

But we are not under this Covenant in this day and age. For we ALL have to continuously remind every man our neighbor and every man our brother to know the Lord. If we had this Covenant written on our hearts and in our minds we wouldn't need preachers, or teachers. We would ALL be preachers and teachers.

How some people miss this and claim that we are living under this Covenant today, is hard to understand. The Covenant that we are under today is the Blood of this Cup. The one that Jesus was holding when He spoke those words. The Blood of that Cup was the Blood that was shed at the Cross. We are ALL under His Blood. No other Covenants are necessary when we have the Blood of Jesus.
 
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Hank77

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Jer.31 and Heb.8 are the same Covenant. They are about Israel and Juda. They are about the Covenant being written on the heart and in the mind. They are about not having to remind every man our neighbor and every man our brother to know the Lord, for we will all know the Lord.

But we are not under this Covenant in this day and age. For we ALL have to continuously remind every man our neighbor and every man our brother to know the Lord. If we had this Covenant written on our hearts and in our minds we wouldn't need preachers, or teachers. We would ALL be preachers and teachers.
I don't agree.
Jer 31:34 And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, Saying, Know ye Yehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Yehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more.

All those who know and believe the Gospel of the Christ, know Yehovah, and they know that through His blood that their sins are forgiven and thrown as far as the east is from the west. The sin of the father will not be visited on his children until the third and fourth generation as it could be under the old covenant. All those in the Messiah Yeshua are Yehovah's people.

In past times there was only a partial knowing of Yehovah and His love, the Christ and the Gospel was hidden in types and shadows. The new covenant gospel has revealed the fullness of Yehovah's love for His people, it was revealed in the giving of His Son.
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered, therefore, and said to them, `Murmur not one with another;
Joh 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
Joh 6:45 it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;
 
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