What would it take for non-RC Christians to join the RCC?

concretecamper said:

More lies......

Here is the truth.

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/470/annulment_nation.aspx

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...met-among-us-catholics-amid-fewer-m/?page=all

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Well, I did say "approximately," so if it's actually 72,000 instead of 100,000 I'm still right, and you still get to be really, really proud of the divorce-a-thon, OK?

Dialogist said:

Hi, Ted -

Roman Catholics and Orthodox hold in common the belief that there is one single Church, absolutely united in doctrine, and not a sort of distributed Church with multiple "denominations". We just disagree on what that single Church is today.

I think this follows logically from Scripture, does it not? If two denominations hold conflicting beliefs about some essential of faith, then either one of them or both must be mistaken. We cannot say that the Church, being the pillar and foundation of truth, can hold untruths within it, can we?

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Hi dialogist,

Well, as I said in a previous response, as a born again believer, I also believe that Jesus only established one 'church' upon the earth. But...

The word that we translate to church is ekklesia. That word means the called out ones. Those who are gathered as a group holding to some central tenet or for some shared purpose:

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense
   1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
   2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
   3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
   4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
   5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven.

Number 4.4 is exactly how I think that Jesus was intending the word to be understood. The 'church' that Jesus began was not the 'catholic' church or the 'baptist' church or the 'orthodox' church. The 'church' that Jesus began was the group of people across the whole of the globe who would come to know the truth, understand the truth and have committed to living a life beholden to God. The 'church' consists of all those who love God with all that they are and love others as themselves. That we each individually choose to worship with various denominations or various fellowships around the globe doesn't even come into the equation.

However, one's eyes can be blinded when they set aside the group with whom they worship and fellowship, as the church. It just ain't so. The 'ekklesia' is merely every individual around the whole of the earth who have acquiesced to God's call to the way of righteousness. There may be some in the 'catholic' denomination. There may be some in the 'baptist' denomination. There may be some in the 'lutheran denomination, et.cetera. None of us can even know 'who' is a part of the church. For it is an invisible bond, unseen by human eyes. It will ultimately be revealed 'who' was the church on the day that God opens the Lamb's book of life.

Yes, I agree that the 'church' so defined above would not cotton to things that are not the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hi dialogist,

I rather imagine that if Jesus returns to gather the 'church' on some bright Sunday morning at 11am in some time zone That in all of the various worship facilities within that time zone people will look around and notice that only a few of their number are missing in each one - Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Orthodox, Catholic, etc. I'm confident that we won't find that only those meeting under the banner of 'catholic' are gone.

Again, God bless you as you seek Him.
In Christ, Ted

miamited said:

Hi dialogist,

Well, as I said in a previous response, as a born again believer, I also believe that Jesus only established one 'church' upon the earth. But...

The word that we translate to church is ekklesia. That word means the called out ones. Those who are gathered as a group holding to some central tenet or for some shared purpose:

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
2. the assembly of the Israelites
3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
4. in a Christian sense
   1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
   2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
   3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
   4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
   5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven.

Number 4.4 is exactly how I think that Jesus was intending the word to be understood. The 'church' that Jesus began was not the 'catholic' church or the 'baptist' church or the 'orthodox' church. The 'church' that Jesus began was the group of people across the whole of the globe who would come to know the truth, understand the truth and have committed to living a life beholden to God. The 'church' consists of all those who love God with all that they are and love others as themselves. That we each individually choose to worship with various denominations or various fellowships around the globe doesn't even come into the equation.

However, one's eyes can be blinded when they set aside the group with whom they worship and fellowship, as the church. It just ain't so. The 'ekklesia' is merely every individual around the whole of the earth who have acquiesced to God's call to the way of righteousness. There may be some in the 'catholic' denomination. There may be some in the 'baptist' denomination. There may be some in the 'lutheran denomination, et.cetera. None of us can even know 'who' is a part of the church. For it is an invisible bond, unseen by human eyes. It will ultimately be revealed 'who' was the church on the day that God opens the Lamb's book of life.

Yes, I agree that the 'church' so defined above would not cotton to things that are not the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

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Thank you, Ted. Yes, I understand that that is what most denominations understand "Church" to mean.

Albion said:

Well, I did say "approximately," so if it's actually 72,000 instead of 100,000 I'm still right, and you still get to be really, really proud of the divorce-a-thon, OK?

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I just want to make sure people have the facts. 100,000 is the US alone versus less than 50,000 worldwide in 2012 is a big stretch......even for those who continually lie about the RCC.

concretecamper said:

I just want to make sure people have the facts. 100,000 is the US alone versus less than 50,000 worldwide in 2012 is a big stretch.

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Where are you getting that comparison from if not the sources you called the "truth" and chose to present to us?

Hank77 said:

Their marriage was never valid in the RCC. If the husband had not converted to RCC then they couldn't grant an annullment and therefore could not marry the catholic girlfriend.

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Yes, I wondered about that myself. I don't think the grandfather was a Catholic priest, so the wedding wasn't a Catholic sacramental wedding to begin with. There is a procedure for a couple who join the Catholic Church later to get their previous wedding blessed by the church; but it is not mentioned whether this was actually done. I assumed because the husband sought an annulment, which takes time and money, that it was or otherwise he wouldn't have needed it.

Hank77 said:

Their parents were not married in the RCC so not a valid marriage, so the children are considered illegitimate as far as the RCC is concerned. Of coarse they don't have the authority to speak for God.

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I agree with most of what you posted; but this is contrary to the quote that I posted from the USCCB FAQ. In that quote they point out that illegitimacy is a legal term used to determine inheritance rights. The Catholic Church does not define someone as illegitimate, the civil law does.

God's Grace be with you.

miamited said:

Hi dialogist,

I rather imagine that if Jesus returns to gather the 'church' on some bright Sunday morning at 11am in some time zone That in all of the various worship facilities within that time zone people will look around and notice that only a few of their number are missing in each one - Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Orthodox, Catholic, etc. I'm confident that we won't find that only those meeting under the banner of 'catholic' are gone.

Again, God bless you as you seek Him.
In Christ, Ted

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As an Orthodox Christian, I would not disagree with that at all. A Roman Catholic might, but I am not sure.

Dialogist said:

As an Orthodox Christian, I would not disagree with that at all. A Roman Catholic might, but I am not sure.

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A Roman Catholic would, but so do most Orthodox Christians. It's still encouraging to read that you don't, however.

Albion said:

A Roman Catholic would, but so do most Orthodox Christians. It's still encouraging to read that you don't, however.

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We believe that the souls of the dead are in a state of blessedness or torment according to their deeds ("Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs on the Orthodox Faith," para 18).



And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And He shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.'

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave Thee drink? When saw we Thee a stranger, and took Thee in? or naked, and clothed Thee? Or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee?'

And the King shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.'

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave Me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me not in: naked, and ye clothed Me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited Me not.'

Then shall they also answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto Thee?'

Then shall he answer them, saying, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me' (Matthew 25:32-46)

Albion said:

Where are you getting that comparison from if not the sources you called the "truth" and chose to present to us?

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.....just using your own words.....

Open Heart said:

Again, it doesn't have to be compulsory to be a tradition. And you can use the phrase *A* sinners prayer if you prefer, it is STILL a tradition to say that prayer, even though no such prayer exists in the Bible.

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But Yeshua was talking about things that the Pharisees had made mandatory/compulsory that were not commanded by YHWH. That is the definition of traditions that He is using. So we need to not mix that up with a different definition of that word.

miamited said:

The 'church' consists of all those who love God with all that they are and love others as themselves. That we each individually choose to worship with various denominations or various fellowships around the globe doesn't even come into the equation.

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Yes, the church, Body of Christ, are individual people.

Dialogist said:

Thank you, Ted. Yes, I understand that that is what most denominations understand "Church" to mean.

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What is the Biblical definition of the church?
Paul tells us that the Body is made up of individual people who have different functions within that Body.
The church is not an organization that is set up like a corporation, as an entity/person all it's own. If every single person left the RCC, the Body of Christ would not cease to exist. If every person left the Baptist, the Body of Christ would not cease to exist. They take the church with them no matter where they go because they are the Body of Christ.

Revelation talks about seven individual church groups. Churches that really existed in those times. There was not one church group. But each one was included in the Body of Christ because of the individual people within those groups.

concretecamper said:

.....just using your own words.....

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Not mine. That's why I asked where you got them from. I never made any mention of "50,000" anything, for instance, and can't find it in either of the two linked articles you gave us.

Albion said:

Not mine. That's why I asked where you got them from. I never made any mention of "50,000" anything, for instance, and can't find it in either of the two linked articles you gave us.

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Not a math major....huh?

Hank77 said:

Yes, the church, Body of Christ, are individual people.

What is the Biblical definition of the church?
Paul tells us that the Body is made up of individual people who have different functions within that Body.
The church is not an organization that is set up like a corporation, as an entity/person all it's own. If every single person left the RCC, the Body of Christ would not cease to exist. If every person left the Baptist, the Body of Christ would not cease to exist. They take the church with them no matter where they go because they are the Body of Christ.

Revelation talks about seven individual church groups. Churches that really existed in those times. There was not one church group. But each one was included in the Body of Christ because of the individual people within those groups.

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Dear Hank:

I agree that if all Roman Catholics and Baptists left their denominations, the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) would not cease to exist (incidentally, I am a former member of both those groups).

Frankly, in my opinion (and this is only my opinion), I think that the disagreement over what constitutes "the Church" arises due to flawed exegesis.

Almost all Christians today believe that whatever other methods one might wish to employ, one's hermeneutic should include a historical-critical method. In interpreting what "the Church" meant to the Apostles and the Christians of their time, additional historical details about the Church that are supplied by Apostolic and Post-Apostolic Fathers are ignored, which do not add or subtract from what is in the New Testament Scripture, but cause it to be interpreted in a different light. As a result, understandings arise that are centered on the linguistic meaning of the word ekklesia and broad interpretations of what is written in the Praxapostolos, unburdened by other historical facts.

Dialogist said:

As an Orthodox Christian, I would not disagree with that at all. A Roman Catholic might, but I am not sure.

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Hi dialogist,

I'm glad that you agree. So, that begs the question, what is all this talk about the 'orthodox' or the 'catholic' denominated fellowships, in which are contained some, but certainly not all of the 'church' being the 'one true church'? Why don't you live and teach what you say you believe based on that comment? That the 'church' is the body of believers upon the earth contained in all and many of the various 'christian' denominations that man has contrived through their disagreements with one another. The orthodox, I suppose but I have never attended one, is merely a group of some of the believers who choose to gather and worship our one true and holy God and His Son and His Spirit and His word together. Holding some division, and that division may or not be biblical, from other like minded fellowships of believers.

If you choose to practice your individual worship of God with a fellowship that labels itself an 'orthodox' fellowship, that's fine. If one chooses to practice their individual worship of God with a fellowship of people that have gathered under some other umbrella of denomination, that's also fine. Yours isn't the one true church and neither is the one carrying some other label. The one true church; the church that Jesus began upon the face of the earth; the ones who are called out and have made themselves beholden to our great and glorious and wonderful and merciful loving God, are the individual people all over the globe who have believed God and through their faith and their proclamation thereof, have been born again. John was quite clear in the Scriptures that only those who have been born again, born of the Spirit of God, have the right to be called the children of God.

Now, you may well believe that your denominated fellowship follows and teaches the truth of God better than some others. That's what I believe. However, and I certainly don't say this to upset, my testimony is that it is not the 'orthodox' or the 'catholic' fellowships that do this. I have read the Scriptures through several times. I have gone to my knees in fervent prayer pleading for the wisdom and guidance and understanding of the Holy Spirit in making known to me the truth of God's word to me many times. It's a prayer that I pray fairly regularly. It's a plea of my heart that I lay out before God, asking, begging, crying out, pleading, "Father give me wisdom and understanding of these things. By your Spirit, Father, open my eyes to the truth and give me the ability to understand all that you want me to know."

These things that I write are the truths that the Spirit has led me to. The truths that I have understood from the Scriptures with, I believe, the guidance of the Holy Spirit. One of those truths that has been made known to me is that the 'church', the ekklesia that Jesus spoke of, is not contained in the holy writs and traditions and practices of some group that gather under some denominated umbrella. The 'ekklesia', those called out, is each and every individual who has believed God and when they are born again, they then become a part of the 'ekklesia'. Their name is written in the Lamb's book of life and they are then part and parcel of the 'church' living on the face of the earth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

concretecamper said:

Not a math major....huh?

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Well, if you don't know, I'll leave it at that. Endless evasions aren't much fun for me.

miamited said:

The orthodox, I suppose but I have never attended one, is merely a group of some of the believers who choose to gather and worship our one true and holy God and His Son and His Spirit and His word together

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Hi, Ted - I'll make you a deal: Go to an Orthodox Liturgy next Sunday and then we can discuss your comments. Some say that the dogma of the Orthodox Church is best expressed in its Services.

If you are in Miami (as your handle suggests), then maybe the OCA cathedral in Miami is an option:
http://www.orthodoxmiami.org/adulteducation.html

Their Liturgy starts at 10 am on Sunday. They also have a study group that meets on Sunday evenings at 5pm and a Bible study group that meets every Wednesday at 7pm and Thursday morning at 10:30am.

Dialogist said:

Hi, Ted - I'll make you a deal: Go to an Orthodox Liturgy next Sunday and then we can discuss your comments. Some say that the dogma of the Orthodox Church is best expressed in its Services.

If you are in Miami (as your handle suggests), then maybe the OCA cathedral in Miami is an option:
http://www.orthodoxmiami.org/adulteducation.html

Their Liturgy starts at 10 am on Sunday. They also have a study group that meets on Sunday evenings at 5pm and a Bible study group that meets every Wednesday at 7pm and Thursday morning at 10:30am.

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How will his attending an Orthodox liturgy decide anything when the issue is "only one true church (body)" vs. "the church of Christ is all true believers, wherever they may be found?"