Why is it so hard for us to comprehend?

Wgw · Aug 2, 2015

Messy said:
The Father tempted by evil? Lol how? An angel invents it at wants to rule over Him and He's tempted by that? All He did was just kick him out.

Strictly speaking I believe the Orthodox line is that the fallen angels alienated themselves; Lucifer had perfect knowledge of what would happen to him if he set himself up in diametric opposition to the uncreated energies of God, but did it anyway, driven by pride, that he might enjoy worship by deceiving humans into worshipping him or other devils instead of the true God (Ps. 95:5 LXX "The Gods of the Gentiles are demons").

Jaxxi · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
If evil is an earthly thing as you say, ...then how could it first be in heaven as you say? I mean after all isn't this where the "so called rebellion" first took place... in the heavens? It doesn't sound like an earthly thing to me.

And if it was Satan or the devil that first sinned, then why is it written, that by one man, sin entered the world? Why doesn't it say by one angel sin entered the world?

You should read The Book of Enoch and The first book of Adam and Eve.

Messy · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
If evil is an earthly thing as you say, ...then how could it first be in heaven as you say? I mean after all isn't this where the "so called rebellion" first took place... in the heavens? It doesn't sound like an earthly thing to me.

And if it was Satan or the devil that first sinned, then why is it written, that by one man, sin entered the world? Why doesn't it say by one angel sin entered the world?

Because if Adam hadn't listened to the serpent and said no, no evil had entered the human race.

2KnowHim · Aug 2, 2015

Messy said:
Because if Adam hadn't listened to the serpent and said no, no evil had entered the human race.

But aren't you and Jaxxi saying that the Serpent, was Lucifer in the heavens before Adam ever existed?
And that it was Lucifer who first sinned against God, and not Adam?
And this was done in The Heavens? And not on the earth?

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 2, 2015

"I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Messy · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
But aren't you and Jaxxi saying that the Serpent, was Lucifer in the heavens before Adam ever existed?
And that it was Lucifer who first sinned against God, and not Adam?
And this was done in The Heavens? And not on the earth?

Yes Ezekiel 28:14 is about a cherub, not a man.

2KnowHim · Aug 2, 2015

Messy said:
Yes Ezekiel 28:14 is about a cherub, not a man.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,

What's the matter you don't think the king of Tyrus was a man? or is it you can't see him being in Eden? or Both?
Pharaoh was there too, or did you not know this?

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Messy · Aug 2, 2015

2KnowHim said:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,

What's the matter you don't think the king of Tyrus was a man? or is it you can't see him being in Eden? or Both?
Pharaoh was there too, or did you not know this?

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

I don't think he is a man. A man is not a cherub. The first part is about a man who simply dies and the next about the power that inspired him, a former cherub. There are two different words used. The first part is about the prince, the second about the king.

Jaxxi · Aug 2, 2015

Satan is the prince and King of Tyre. At least that is the representation.

Wgw · Aug 2, 2015

Jaxxi said:
Satan is the prince and King of Tyre. At least that is the representation.

You do realize that Tyre was a historical Phoenician metropolis in modern day Lebanon, right? So to say that Satan ruled it directly...I have to ask, what gives you that idea?

Jaxxi · Aug 2, 2015

Wgw said:
You do realize that Tyre was a historical Phoenician metropolis in modern day Lebanon, right? So to say that Satan ruled it directly...I have to ask, what gives you that idea?

Jaxxi · Aug 2, 2015

I never said Satan ruled it directly. See Satan was charged in heaven with the same sins/crimes that the Prince of Tyre was. So the representation is there..http://www.bibleexplained.com/prophets/ezek/ez28.htm see that and here https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/satan-is-king-of-tyre/

timewerx · Aug 3, 2015

2KnowHim said:
And if we are to see The Father when we look at Jesus, then there is no doubt He was tempted by evil. Yet without sin. So why not The Father?

Think about it please, before you post.

Jewish and Ancient Egypt myths does have an instance of a woman out-smarting / successfully defying God. In Jewish, this woman is Lilith, in Egypt, it is Isis.

This presumably ancient human woman achieved god-like status simply by her cunning. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, "The truth will set you free". Literally, the knowledge this cunning woman found set her free from the laws of the Universe.

This Lilith is actually in the Bible but unnamed. This character challenges the one-God concept of Christianity and Judaism. In fact, it shows there are two Gods in the Bible which many ignorantly worship and one of them is evil.

Wgw · Aug 3, 2015

Actually Lilith does appear in the Bible under the archaic name Iamia, in Isaac 34:14, as a demon, and in fact nowhere else. In no sense does the Bible provide any kind of snare that could lead one to Lilith-worship; to assert so is to entirely deny the inspired status of the canonical Old and New Testaments as prophecies of the Christ, and descriptions of His incarnation and the works of His apostles. And I very mich hope no one is going to say somerhing ailly, like Mary is Lilith, for to propose the mother of our Lord and Savior from which He took His humanity is a demon would be insane, as it would imply our Lord was consubstantial with demons, impossible according to scripture, for light has nothing to do with darkness, and also it would destroy our hope of salvation, which rests on Chrisf being consubstantial with us and with God, fully God and fully man, taking human nature unto himself through the Virgin Mary and sanctifying it, allowing us to become by grace what He is by nature, having been ransomed from our sins by His sacrifice on the cross.

timewerx · Aug 3, 2015

Wgw said:
Actually Lilith does appear in the Bible under the archaic name Iamia, in Isaac 34:14,

No name, look in Isaiah 34:14 NIV (none also in KJV translation)

Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also lie down and find for themselves places of rest.

I've looked up the meaning of "Lamia" which is a name of a queen of Libya who became a child-eating demon. Indeed, Lilith is also a child-eating/killing demon. But that is not mentioned in Isaiah 34:14.

Lilith in Jewish Literature also flew to the desert with a pair of huge wings to find rest from her tormentor - Adam, the first man.

Just like the anointed Woman of Revelations whom many say is the mother of Jesus or Israel, also were given wings (by God) and flew to the desert to escape her tormentor, the dragon.

One Egyptian Goddess with one of its many titles as "Queen of Heaven" is also mentioned as Queen of the desert and jackals. She also had a crown of stars just like the Anointed Woman of Revelations.

While the Anointed Woman of Revelations in addition, was said to have the moon under her feet.... The moon is virtually a barren, lifeless world, like a desert...

Lilith also shares similarity to Isis for knowing secrets unknown to anyone else but God only. Isis was capable of all the miracles performed by Jesus

I honestly don't trust the fewer negative depictions of Lilith as she parallels more positive characters elsewhere.

Perhaps, it just happened that Lilith was probably a woman with spectacular abilities (like the consistent description of her ability to fly) and under a misogynistic patriarchal society of The Jews who could not accept a woman having great powers over a man, they decided to turn her into a demon in their stories.

I mean who really murders children even from the wombs of pregnant mothers?? It's not Lilith.....before abortion, invading armies of men usually did such atrocities and they're still doing it today.

Logically - speaking, the Lilith myth would have made an excellent false propaganda to find someone else to blame for the atrocities of men and to perpetuate a patriarchal society which was endemic all over the world prior to the 21st century.

Wgw · Aug 4, 2015

Note that I was of course reading from the LXX and the Vulgate and not the somewhat defective Masoretic text that underpins the KjV, or the entirely defective Dynamic Equivalence translation that underpins the NIV, which tends to radically distort the meaning of different passages. The Septuagint, the Syriac Peshitta and the Vulgate are those texts that were used by the ancient Church, and thus I only quote them (compare Ps 95 v 5 LXX with Ps 96 v 5 MT/KJV to see why; the Psalm numbering in the MT is also different whixh breaks our ancient syatem of Kathismata and Stases, for what we number as Psalm 95 is numbered as 96, for example).

timewerx · Aug 5, 2015

Wgw said:
Note that I was of course reading from the LXX and the Vulgate and not the somewhat defective Masoretic text that underpins the KjV, or the entirely defective Dynamic Equivalence translation that underpins the NIV, which tends to radically distort the meaning of different passages. The Septuagint, the Syriac Peshitta and the Vulgate are those texts that were used by the ancient Church, and thus I only quote them (compare Ps 95 v 5 LXX with Ps 96 v 5 MT/KJV to see why; the Psalm numbering in the MT is also different whixh breaks our ancient syatem of Kathismata and Stases, for what we number as Psalm 95 is numbered as 96, for example).

Of course, just the name did not appear in the popular translations NIV and KJV.

I'm aware of the irreconcilable defects of NIV and KJV.

But the problem is present even in the earliest copies/translations - in Hebrew.

We are to scrutinize with sound logic, not easily trust any translation or copy.

DrBubbaLove · Aug 7, 2015

2KnowHim said:
That God was once tempted with Evil?

Is it because we have this scripture:

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: ?
But, what if there was a time long before the foundation of the world, that this could be said, and He overcame it?

And if we are to see The Father when we look at Jesus, then there is no doubt He was tempted by evil. Yet without sin. So why not The Father?

Think about it please, before you post.

The thought requires that our view of God change. He has to be mutable if we are going to say there exists within Him the potential for something. Typically the idea of mutability is excluded in most of our concepts of God. IOWs being able to be tempted requires the ability to change. Most of us hold that God has and will never change - cannot change. He is. (I am that I am.)

He is also traditionally considered self-existing and His characteristics are also typically considered absolute. Which means whatever quality/characteristic we claim He has, that essentially we are literally saying He is that (I am that I am), rather than thinking of it as someone who has a whole heap of that quality/characteristic. So saying He is Good (I am GOOD), if we believe that, then it precludes the possibility (and thus the potential) that He could be tempted to do evil.

davidtriune · Aug 10, 2015

The tempt in James seems to mean along the lines of feeling tempted, which he can't. Trying to tempt him would be like trying against a robot, which you can but no use. Either that or maybe Jesus was once in the flesh so he had to be able to take on human weakness and experience temptations, but now he cannot since he's not in the flesh anymore.

anonymouswho · Aug 10, 2015

2KnowHim said:
That God was once tempted with Evil?

Is it because we have this scripture:

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: ?
But, what if there was a time long before the foundation of the world, that this could be said, and He overcame it?

And if we are to see The Father when we look at Jesus, then there is no doubt He was tempted by evil. Yet without sin. So why not The Father?

Think about it please, before you post.

I've wondered about this too. Remember the Hebrew in Ecclesiastes 1:13 it says this experience of evil God has put on the sons of man to be humbled therewith. A lot of Atheist and such wonder why God didn't just make everything perfect to begin with. I believe this verse answers that question, but then it leads me to wonder if God had experienced Evil before He created the Universe. The Scriptures speak a lot about God "long-suffering", and I've always wondered what this means. So I wouldn't necessarily say He was ever "tempted" by Evil, but I do believe He experienced it, and that is why He has subjected us to it.

Here is a decent video by L. Ray Smith that I think explains it pretty good. He compares the creation of the Universe to childbirth pains. Wisdom is the principle thing.

(I don't necessarily agree with everything in this video, as Smith leans towards the Arius interpretation of who Yeshua is. But the man definitely knows his Scripture. Also, it won't let me send the link to the video, so just click on Where Does God's Knowledge and Wisdom come from?)

http://bible-truths.com

And here's an article by Hans Kaser called Does God Suffer? I think this one is more interesting and Scriptural:

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Kaser/godsuffr.htm

Thanks for the interesting topic. I like the verses you used as well. God bless you my friend.

Why is it so hard for us to comprehend?

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