Are you a Confessional Lutheran?

Do you have to agree that the office of the pope is the Antichrist in order to be a member in a confessional Lutheran congregation?

Pastors of Confessional Lutheran churches pledge unconditional subscription to the entire Book of Concord in their ordination. In their confirmation the laity normally affirm their subscription to the Lutheran faith as taught in the Small Catechism, which does not mention the office of the papacy.

GracetotheHumble said:

No, but if you are true to the Lutheran Confessions you would believe that the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist.

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No, you would believe that the attributes conferred by the Catholic Church on the Bishop of Rome are against God's word; therefore, the office is anti-christian. (Supreme Pontiff and infallibility); the Bishop of Rome is as valid an office as the president of the LCMS; and the Bishop of Rome is the leader (patriarch of) the Catholic Church. This is not disputed.

GracetotheHumble said:

That's interesting, I was not aware of that distinction. So Church members are not required to submit to the Book of Concord. In order to be a true Confessional Lutheran wouldn't you say that one should study and submit to it in it's entirety?

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In a word; yes.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

No, you would believe that the attributes conferred by the Catholic Church on the Bishop of Rome are against God's word; therefore, the office is anti-christian. (Supreme Pontiff and infallibility); the Bishop of Rome is as valid an office as the president of the LCMS; and the Bishop of Rome is the leader (patriarch of) the Catholic Church. This is not disputed.

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Ahhh, very well stated. I can get behind that.

GracetotheHumble said:

That's interesting, I was not aware of that distinction. So Church members are not required to submit to the Book of Concord. In order to be a true Confessional Lutheran wouldn't you say that one should study and submit to it in it's entirety?

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Yes.

The basis for the statement in the BoC that the Pope is the Antichrist is based upon the facts that when the Pope is speaking ex cathedra, with supposed infallibility, he is standing in the place of Christ, and because the Pope teaches against the scriptural doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, he teaches false doctrine from the place of Christ. These are the scriptural descriptions of the Antichrist.

It is important to remember that Lutherans do not buy into the whole millennialist schtick regarding the Antichrist, as portrayed in Left Behind or otherwise.

Tangible said:

The basis for the statement in the BoC that the Pope is the Antichrist is based upon the facts that when the Pope is speaking ex cathedra, with supposed infallibility, he is standing in the place of Christ, and because the Pope teaches against the scriptural doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, he teaches false doctrine from the place of Christ. These are the scriptural descriptions of the Antichrist.

It is important to remember that Lutherans do not buy into the whole millennialist schtick regarding the Antichrist, as portrayed in Left Behind or otherwise.

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Thanks; well stated yet again! Take way the "supposed infallibility" and "Supreme Pontiff" (earthly lord over all Christendom), you have the Bishop of Rome, and the Patriarch of the CC. One needs to look at the rhetoric of the period; harsh literalism was the norm of the day; not just from Luther but the CC and the radical reformers as well. Read some of Luther's late, pre-reformation writings; his loyality to the Pope was unwavering despite his disagreements with the non Biblical "attributes" conferred by previous popes.

I stand by what I have written; and so does most of Confessional Lutheranism.

There have been some really good, just and pious popes;John XXIII, Paul VI, JP II (a little liberal for my taste) Benedict, and now Francis (I have not made up my mind, but so far, not bad). History speaks to the bad ones.

GracetotheHumble said:

Exactly, so why do Lutherans today fail to recognize the historic stance of the Lutheran Church concerning the Antichrist?

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We understand the context of what was written; we may be sola scriptura, but we are not 'sola treatise'. We are almilenialists.

Confessional Lutherans know what the BoC states regarding the papacy and gladly confess it. When someone from outside the Lutheran tradition comes along and wants to make a big deal out of one point of Lutheran doctrine, however, and not really a very important point at that, forgive us Lutherans for not getting all excited. We know that many Protestants believe that the Pope is the antichrist, but we also know that these same Protestants will label us "Catholic Lite" and deny the Lutheran Doctrine of Justification, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, with the very next breath.

I like this response from the Lutheran Church of Australia.

GracetotheHumble said:

I don't. They back tracked their position. One does not cease to be the Antichrist as they suggest.

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OK...is there some law of physics that says people can't change their beliefs/practices/theology?