Is the law "done away " and abolished I mean the ten commandments? for believers?

timewerx · Aug 3, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
2 cor 3 read that again slowly and consider all the words. Words like Tables of stone, ..done away, abolished, ministration of death and condemnation ..veil on the heart in reading Old testament etc

I know but also in context to 1 Timothy 1:5-10...

You should be familiar that Paul tend to adjust his teaching methods and topics depending on his audience. Jesus did this too....

....Jesus also does not talk much about condemnation with His disciples, but when talking to Pharisees, he sometimes even condemned them with death.

So until one is truly saved, and still do evil, the law still applies to them.

But when one has become truly saved, the law no longer applies to them because they will choose to do good even if there's no one around them to remind them of the Laws of God

Ironically, the Law of God is easily derived from simply having a true and responsible love for one another. Which is why even if such person does not go to church anymore, doesn't read the Bible anymore, their paths will remain straight because they no longer need the law to keep straight.

The Law of God is therefore, like training wheels, unless going straight becomes your nature, then you need the laws until you do so.

ob77 · Aug 3, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
"7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."2 Corinthians 3:7-14

even when reading Moses many are confused and blinded.

Notice the word end of the commandment, done away, abolished, a ministration of death and condemnation.

also we read about the law

"5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;' (1 Timothy 1:5-10)

Christ Himself said that He had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. If one wishes to, everything in the Bible is the law. Christ said He had not come to change one jot or iota (Aleph, in Hebrew- Iota in greek) of the law - the smallest particles of the written languages. A sin is the transgression of the law and when Christ was with the woman accused of adultery and her accusers were gone He told her to go and sin no more.....He forgave her of her sins and she had sinned otherwise He would have not told her to cease in that behavior. In other words, He knew she had broken the law and told her to stop, so, at that time, Christ was still enforcing the laws on the books. Fulfillment does not mean abolishment.
So for those of you who believe you are not still under the law, go ahead and have at it. Just do not stand beside me at judgment day.

LoveofTruth · Aug 3, 2015

ob77 said:
Christ Himself said that He had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. If one wishes to, everything in the Bible is the law. Christ said He had not come to change one jot or iota (Aleph, in Hebrew- Iota in greek) of the law - the smallest particles of the written languages. A sin is the transgression of the law and when Christ was with the woman accused of adultery and her accusers were gone He told her to go and sin no more.....He forgave her of her sins and she had sinned otherwise He would have not told her to cease in that behavior. In other words, He knew she had broken the law and told her to stop, so, at that time, Christ was still enforcing the laws on the books. Fulfillment does not mean abolishment.
So for those of you who believe you are not still under the law, go ahead and have at it. Just do not stand beside me at judgment day.

"And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:"

scripture is clear.

and yes believers can still use the law to convict sinners etc as 1 timothy 1 says. But believers are not to be teachers of the law as Paul warns, and the law is not made for a righteous man. Believers are "free from the law" as scripture teaches, and "dead to the law" etc.

timewerx · Aug 4, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
and yes believers can still use the law to convict sinners etc as 1 timothy 1 says. But believers are not to be teachers of the law as Paul warns, and the law is not made for a righteous man. Believers are "free from the law" as scripture teaches, and "dead to the law" etc.

That only works if one is a true believer. One that the Bible defines so poorly due to varying requirements - on one end, you simply have to confess the name of the Lord, on the other end, it takes a lifetime of struggle to be like Christ, even Apostle Paul's own sermons on the subject vary greatly.

There is much confusion on the subject because it is a paradox coupled with the fact that much of the New Testament is esoteric in nature which is why Jesus often spoke in parables and why Paul did not divulge some of his teachings to everyone. The Clementine Homilies by Apostle Peter continues with the practice of secrecy of some portions of the Gospel.

Maybe because we are absolutely clueless of the diversity of the audiences they faced and we made fatal false assumptions like it's okay to preach everything to everyone....

....So today, we have worldly people who still love the devil preaching on the pulpit, playing the guitar, etc etc, preaching the evil ways of the world only with different labels.

Because at some point, someone lost his mind and thinks everyone can take the whole Gospel and here we are today - divided...

Blades · Aug 4, 2015

timewerx said:
That only works if one is a true believer. One that the Bible defines so poorly due to varying requirements - on one end, you simply have to confess the name of the Lord, on the other end, it takes a lifetime of struggle to be like Christ, even Apostle Paul's own sermons on the subject vary greatly.

There is much confusion on the subject because it is a paradox coupled with the fact that much of the New Testament is esoteric in nature which is why Jesus often spoke in parables and why Paul did not divulge some of his teachings to everyone. The Clementine Homilies by Apostle Peter continues with the practice of secrecy of some portions of the Gospel.

Maybe because we are absolutely clueless of the diversity of the audiences they faced and we made fatal false assumptions like it's okay to preach everything to everyone....

....So today, we have worldly people who still love the devil preaching on the pulpit, playing the guitar, etc etc, preaching the evil ways of the world only with different labels.

Because at some point, someone lost his mind and thinks everyone can take the whole Gospel and here we are today - divided...

Blades · Aug 4, 2015

Hi there timewerx, as Christians we actualy do not have to worry about anything, the Law has already been fulfilled on our behalf, we have the holy spirit indwelling in us so we know right from Wrong with out having to consult the Law.
The Law is a ministry of condemnation and Death for all those who seek to fullfill it.
The Cherry picking legalists of this World, are Guilty of all, they try to convict somebody with the Law and as a result are already in breach of the law themselves and Guilty of all....these same legalists I have noticed promote the Demonic doctrines of free will and eternal torment as well, it is like they are doubly dammed, they do not relise they are the Goats, but luckily for them God is the Sheperd of the Goats as well as of the sheep....

timewerx · Aug 4, 2015

Blades said:
Hi there timewerx, as Christians we actualy do not have to worry about anything, the Law has already been fulfilled on our behalf, we have the holy spirit indwelling in us so we know right from Wrong with out having to consult the Law.

Of course it is.

but luckily for them God is the Sheperd of the Goats as well as of the sheep....

Not really, Jesus condemned them to death on a face-to-face basis, either In John chapter 8 or 10.

LoveofTruth · Aug 4, 2015

Blades said:
Hi there timewerx, as Christians we actualy do not have to worry about anything, the Law has already been fulfilled on our behalf, we have the holy spirit indwelling in us so we know right from Wrong with out having to consult the Law.
The Law is a ministry of condemnation and Death for all those who seek to fullfill it.
The Cherry picking legalists of this World, are Guilty of all, they try to convict somebody with the Law and as a result are already in breach of the law themselves and Guilty of all....these same legalists I have noticed promote the Demonic doctrines of free will and eternal torment as well, it is like they are doubly dammed, they do not relise they are the Goats, but luckily for them God is the Sheperd of the Goats as well as of the sheep....

The law is not made for a righteous man that is true and true believers are not under the law are dead to the law, free from the law. but All believers will still read the Old testament and draw spiritual truth from it as Paul said also, and we can use the law lawfully to expose sin etc. You need to learn these things as well. . And no believer has to be under such things as tithing feast days sacrifices circumcision etc, or even the ten commandments as a way of them establishing righteousness.

Here are some verses to consider

"5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Timothy 1:5-9 KJV) 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

By law here Paul is not saying we need to use it by telling sinners they have to keep the sacrifices and tithing etc. No "by the law is the knowledge of sin" as Paul said. The law is a ministration of condemnation and death.

Romans 15:4
"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

2 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

Also, as far as freewill being a devil doctrine. This is false the bible clearly speaks of freewill.

Ezra 7:13
"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."

You are to be ashamed not rightly dividing the word of truth .

LoveofTruth · Aug 4, 2015

timewerx said:
That only works if one is a true believer. One that the Bible defines so poorly due to varying requirements - on one end, you simply have to confess the name of the Lord, on the other end, it takes a lifetime of struggle to be like Christ, even Apostle Paul's own sermons on the subject vary greatly.

There is much confusion on the subject because it is a paradox coupled with the fact that much of the New Testament is esoteric in nature which is why Jesus often spoke in parables and why Paul did not divulge some of his teachings to everyone. The Clementine Homilies by Apostle Peter continues with the practice of secrecy of some portions of the Gospel.

Maybe because we are absolutely clueless of the diversity of the audiences they faced and we made fatal false assumptions like it's okay to preach everything to everyone....

....So today, we have worldly people who still love the devil preaching on the pulpit, playing the guitar, etc etc, preaching the evil ways of the world only with different labels.

Because at some point, someone lost his mind and thinks everyone can take the whole Gospel and here we are today - divided...

The bible does define a true believer in many places. The audiences spoken to in many of the letters are also defined in many places.

Anyway seek and ye shall find.

brixken7 · Aug 4, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Also, as far as freewill being a devil doctrine. This is false the bible clearly speaks of freewill.

The term "free will" is only found ONE time in the Bible and it's only in passing in the Old Testament. In reality, man's so-called "free will" is much like what a dog has who is tethered by a chain to a stake in the ground --- his "free will" is severely limited. There is ultimately only one Free Will, and that is God, "who works All THINGS after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11).

And when you stop and think about it, if we truly had what's known as "free will," then eventually everyone could fall away (backslide) and NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED!

YHWH's Lion · Oct 24, 2015

Christians says that the Law ( ten commandments and law of moses is done away with, nailed to the cross) then is it OK to participate in inappropriate behavior with animals? this was forbidden in the law of Moses but since that is nailed to the cross that means it's Ok right? if NO than please tell me why not and according to what law?
and the argument of "my conscience will tells me what is right and wrong " does not hold up because you can ask many people if they are righteous and many will say yes. yet if one is raised in the jungles of Africa he might have much different moral standards than someone raised in Canada. 1 john 3:4 is very clear: Sin is the transgression of the law.

Winken · Oct 24, 2015

YHWH's Lion said:
Christians says that the Law ( ten commandments and law of moses is done away with, nailed to the cross) then is it OK to participate in inappropriate behavior with animals? this was forbidden in the law of Moses but since that is nailed to the cross that means it's Ok right? if NO than please tell me why not and according to what law?
and the argument of "my conscience will tells me what is right and wrong " does not hold up because you can ask many people if they are righteous and many will say yes. yet if one is raised in the jungles of Africa he might have much different moral standards than someone raised in Canada. 1 john 3:4 is very clear: Sin is the transgression of the law.

Come on, man. You ask foolish questions, make simplistic declarations. You have no clear concept or understanding of the Law and Jesus becoming its fulfillment. I recommend Christianity 101.

YHWH's Lion · Oct 25, 2015

Winken said:
Come on, man. You ask foolish questions, make simplistic declarations. You have no clear concept or understanding of the Law and Jesus becoming its fulfillment. I recommend Christianity 101.

why don't you enlighten me then. and answer the question.

Winken · Oct 25, 2015

YHWH's Lion said:
why don't you enlighten me then. and answer the question.

The Complete Jewish Bible:

Romans 6:11-23
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=CJB

Romans 7
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7&version=CJB

My Personal Commentary:

Is Paul speaking about himself, or to the listeners/readers? Romans 7 includes Paul's illustration of the incorporation of the law/Law in Jesus, as its fulfillment, providing Amazing Grace. The following is the analogous application.

"Now, Christian Brethren, each one of you was put to death with reference to the Torah (law), through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. with the result that each one of you was Spiritually joined to Jesus who was raised up from the dead, thus mobilizing your Spiritual Nature. When we were without Christ, the sinful nature was revealed by the law. As Christians we are set free from it, having died to that which constantly beset us; we now walk in our new Spiritual Nature by Grace through Faith (Romans 10:8-13). As individuals, just what is your understanding now? Was the law sin? NO! The law made me aware of sin! I would not have known the difference without the law! Without it I was not aware of my sinful nature! With it I became aware of it! The fact is that the law, revealing my sinful nature, condemning my sin, was a Righteous outreach. The law itself was God-given! Me? I still sin! I don't know why I give in to it! I desire Holiness yet I sin. Aware of the law, I agree that it is good. In the flesh, in the sinful nature, there is nothing good. Now that I am born again, it is not the Spiritual "I" which does this, but the "hangover" of the sinful "I" dwelling within me. I see myself (my self) as a prisoner of the sinful nature. Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this fleshly death? Praise God, Jesus, our Lord. In my Spiritual Nature I serve Him, but in my sinful nature, sin." (Paul asks and answers his own question. I can imagine some of his listeners/readers uttering "I get that!").

Galatians 3:13-26
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=CJB

Romans 8:1 ~ "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That really sums it up.

How many, many, many, many have stumbled over Romans 7:1-3, then 7:4ff. It is an analogy, with Paul applying the application to himself. These Jewish Christians, living in Rome and vicinity, were still debating the Torah (one example would be insisting upon circumcision for Gentiles). They were being taught by Paul that their rebirth was "the better way." We need not engage in or debate the law (Law) today. We are born again. It is enough that Jesus died and that He died for each of us who respond to the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Romans 10:8-13). The Apostle Paul was called to bring that to everyone's attention.

Jesus fulfills every aspect of the Law and the Commandments (613 of them). He fulfills everyone of the 1,000 rules of conduct. Since they are fulfilled, complied with in Jesus, that contract is obliterated. Can you now go on your way, happily sinning the rest of your life? Of course not. In your born-again experience, you entered into a one-to-one relationship with your Savior, Jesus. HE is the one who measures what has happened, not you. When He now looks at you He sees not the old contract, but Himself. He has declared you to be the Righteousness of God in Him. That relationship is permanent.

You can enter into it through Paul's examples in the Book of Romans without having even heard of the Law and the Commandments. He has given you the GIFT of eternal salvation by His Amazing Grace through your confession of Faith! Will you now thank Him by wilfully continuing in sin?

Walk into a car dealership. Buy a car. When you send in your first payment, the bank notifies you that the contract as been fulfilled, paid in full. Someone else paid it for you. You can file it away, but you are no longer required to abide by the provisions of it. Our church had an outstanding building debt balance of $750,000. One month a payment was sent in. The bank notified us that someone had paid off the entire balance. Several deacons went to the bank to confirm it in person. We still don't know who it was. We ripped that contract to shreds at a special meeting of the church. The contract no longer applied.

The 10, the 613, the 1,000, we no longer look to. We look to our Savior, that Most Holy One who fulfilled every one of those, PLUS gave us eternal security, no strings attached.

GodB4S · Oct 25, 2015

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. -Revelations 22:14-15

I read the end of the book...the law is still there...should be in our hearts when we became a new creature...instead of actual murder, we hate we become murders in our heart...instead of the act of adultery, if we lust on another man's wife we sin in our heart...God does not change and he is holy.

stuart lawrence · Oct 27, 2015

ob77 said:
Christ Himself said that He had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. If one wishes to, everything in the Bible is the law. Christ said He had not come to change one jot or iota (Aleph, in Hebrew- Iota in greek) of the law - the smallest particles of the written languages. A sin is the transgression of the law and when Christ was with the woman accused of adultery and her accusers were gone He told her to go and sin no more.....He forgave her of her sins and she had sinned otherwise He would have not told her to cease in that behavior. In other words, He knew she had broken the law and told her to stop, so, at that time, Christ was still enforcing the laws on the books. Fulfillment does not mean abolishment.
So for those of you who believe you are not still under the law, go ahead and have at it. Just do not stand beside me at judgment day.

The christian is not under a law of righteousness before God for Christ died for their sins.
Therefore the law remains, but the penalty for breaking it had been removed from the christian.
Is this a licence to sin?
No! For it is a two part covenant, not one part. The law got transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3)
This is the covenant i will make with them after that time says the lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more heb10:16&17

By the law being written on the believers mind and placed on their heart they instinctively know how God wants them to live and in their heart they want to obey. Anyone who in their heart wants to obey God cannot therefore wilfully without conscience seek to disobey him. Such a thing is not possible. So the two core foundational points of the new covenant are inextricably linked. We are born again of the dpirit-

stuart lawrence · Oct 27, 2015

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom 10:4

Therefore Christ is not the end of the law full stop, but unto righteousness. Therefore the law remains but the penalty for breaking it is removed. If you are not under a law of righteousness you cannot be made unrighteous for your imperfections concerning that law
Does this give a christian a licence to sin? It would if it was a one part covenant, but it is not. The new covenant hinges on two core points.
This is the covenant I will make with them after that Tim declares the lord
I will write my laws on their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more heb 10:16&17
The law God requires you to keep has been transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts. You in your heart want to obey God. You have in this sense been born again. Jesus can only be your saviour from sin if in your heart you want to obey his father, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless that is the case.
If a person in their heart wants to obey God, it is not possible for them at the same Tim to wilfully without conscience seek to disobey him because they are not under a law of righteousness. God is not stupid, he had it all figured out

Gregory Thompson · Oct 28, 2015

The law still has a purpose in killing the flesh, when the Holy Spirit takes over teaching, then we have no need of a teacher other than God.
Basically, if you need the law, you have some maturing to do. Paul spoke of this in regards to maturity and said those who do not take this view .. God will make it clear to them, and i trust him for that.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 28, 2015

Yeshua fulfilled the law. If you read the 10 commandments they're basically a common decency list. I'd hope they wouldn't be done away with. Especially when Yeshua invoked many of them when asked if they still applied under the new covenant.

Do we have to be told not to murder?
Steal? Lie? Not worship false god's?

LoveofTruth said:
"7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."2 Corinthians 3:7-14

even when reading Moses many are confused and blinded.

Notice the word end of the commandment, done away, abolished, a ministration of death and condemnation.

also we read about the law

"5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;' (1 Timothy 1:5-10)

Mark51 · Nov 3, 2015

In support of your comment, the following supporting scriptures are noteworthy. Matthew 22:36-39; Mark 12:28-31; John 13:21; 15:11.

Is the law "done away " and abolished I mean the ten commandments? for believers?

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