why is Oneness unorthodox/frowned upon?

ToBeLoved

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God created the human body that He inhabited.

"Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee"

"for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that dwelt in the human body of Jesus Christ

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.

We were not discussing the body that Jesus Christ personally inhabited. We were discussing the Holy Spirit residing in His children, us. I just wanted to clarify because it seems that you were responding to one of my posts.
 
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Berean777

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We were not discussing the body that Jesus Christ personally inhabited. We were discussing the Holy Spirit residing in His children, us. I just wanted to clarify because it seems that you were responding to one of my posts.

Have you considered why the Holy Spirit is mentioned only twice in the Old Testament writings whereas in the New Testament the Holy Spirit is mentioned countless number of times?

The Old Testament versus are as follows.

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10-11
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying,
Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

But the Father and the Son is revealed countless number of times. In fact Jesus states that all the Old Testament scriptures testify of him.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

What is so mysterious about the Holy Spirit of God that he only reveals himself Pentecost and post Pentecost?

What is Jesus saying here....

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Who came on Pentecost, if Jesus is including himself and his Father?

Why is the Holy Ghost only speaking what he listens to by the conversations between the Father and the Son?

If the Son is related to the Father as his Son..

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Just like a family unite the Holy Ghost has a relationship with the Father and the Son, so what is it?

You can't say the Holy Ghost is a mystery anymore he must be every part of the family of three and must be related to the Father and the Son in an eternal way that was from the beginning, so what is his relationship with the Father and the Son?

If you lived in the Old Testament age, you could say that he is a mystery person, because he is seldomly mentioned, however in the New Testament, a believer can hardly say that the Holy Ghost indwells them, yet they don't know much about him or his relationship with the Father and the Son.

You see where I am getting at. The only way you can know who is mysterious person is if you see that the one God is the infinite and indivisible Holy Spirit who holds both relationship titles as Father and Son from the beginning of the world when in Genesis 1:2 his Holy Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters and he said let there be light / life, because the Holy Spirit is the source of all life from the beginning.

Is the Holy Ghost a mystery when Jesus states in John 14:23 that we will come and make our home with the believers ?

It is similar to me a person who holds the position of father to my children and the son to my mother. God the Holy Spirit by virtue of creating the world became the Father and when he entered his creation he became the preeminent Son who was given to his own creation (Isaiah 9:6).

No one seen the Father until the Son who was present in the Old Testament as the Angel of Yahweh's presence revealed him according to Isaiah 63:10-11. Then came the temple builder to finally disclose the mysterious person of Genesis 1:2.

Zechariah 10:4
From him (The Father) shall come the cornerstone (Jesus Christ), from him the tent peg ( temple builder the Holy Ghost), from him the battle bow, from him every ruler

We have a tease of who the Father is then Jesus came and revealed the invisible Father, then finally the one triune God came as the one and only Holy Spirit to dwell in his temple that he builds. That is why Jesus said that true worshiper will worship God in spirit because God is Holy Spirit. The progressive reveal is that the mysterious God comes as the Holy Spirit he is to disclose the mystery that was not known to the Old Testament people's nor the prophets until he finally revealed himself as the one God one Holy Spirit and Jesus said you must be born of Holy Spirit. Notice sanctification regeneration and adoption is done by the Holy Spirit and Romans 8:11 states that it is the Holy Spirit that resurrects us.

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Do you know who the Holy Spirit is?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Have you considered why the Holy Spirit is mentioned only twice in the Old Testament writings whereas in the New Testament the Holy Spirit is mentioned countless number of times?

The Old Testament versus are as follows.

The Holy Spirit was not really active in the Old Testament because it is only with the birth, death for our sins in Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit has become available to reside in us.

In the Old Testament, there was the Old Covenant, which is also called the Law of Moses (10 Commandments, ect). The Israelite's had to follow the Law with no mistakes and temporary atonement for sins was made with blood sacrifices of animals (note that it is always blood) and harvest items. This however was not full atonement for sin (like we have now in Jesus Christ), this was before Christ. And atonement for sins was both temporary (they had to do it each year) and was not a full atonement or forgiveness, as we have now with the New Covenant.

It is only with Jesus death, that there is a full and complete atonement for sin. He is the lamb that was slain, not an animal like temporary atonement, but the Son of God who is the complete atonement for sin. The complete atonment and forgiveness of sin is the New Covenant. Since Jesus has completely atoned for our sins, now He can send the Holy Spirit (which is God) to reside in each of His children upon salvation. That is the gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ! That we now have complete and fulfilled forgiveness of sin, in the blood of Christ and can have the Holy Spirit reside in us.

That is the difference between the Old Covenant (Law of Moses) and the New Covenant (forgivenss of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ). Only with the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit available.
But the Father and the Son is revealed countless number of times. In fact Jesus states that all the Old Testament scriptures testify of him.

That is correct, because the Israelite's were told by God that there would be a Messiah (Savior) sent into the world. The Old Testament tells of this coming Savior, so the Old Testament people knew He would come but that it would not be in their lifetime.



What is so mysterious about the Holy Spirit of God that he only reveals himself Pentecost and post Pentecost?

When we think about the timing of Pentecost, it was right after Jesus death. Jesus before He was crucified told His disciples that only after He left them (in death) could He send His Spirit to them. Shortly after Jesus death, He did just that and sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples, which is Pentecost.


Who came on Pentecost, if Jesus is including himself and his Father?

The Father has always stayed in heaven. Jesus had just died and resurrected and was once again seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The Holy Spirit was sent to reside inside believer's (disciples) at Pentecost.


Why is the Holy Ghost only speaking what he listens to by the conversations between the Father and the Son?

Why would the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost need to listen to conversations between the Father and the Son? They are all three God and of 100% like mind. They all know all. There is no listening, it is past listening, they all know what each other are desiring and doing, they are of like minds, completely.
If the Son is related to the Father as his Son..

Just like a family unite the Holy Ghost has a relationship with the Father and the Son, so what is it?

We are never brought into complete understanding of God. We know what we have been shown in God's Word.
You can't say the Holy Ghost is a mystery anymore he must be every part of the family of three and must be related to the Father and the Son in an eternal way that was from the beginning, so what is his relationship with the Father and the Son?

If you lived in the Old Testament age, you could say that he is a mystery person, because he is seldomly mentioned, however in the New Testament, a believer can hardly say that the Holy Ghost indwells them, yet they don't know much about him or his relationship with the Father and the Son.

You see where I am getting at. The only way you can know who is mysterious person is if you see that the one God is the infinite and indivisible Holy Spirit who holds both relationship titles as Father and Son from the beginning of the world when in Genesis 1:2 his Holy Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters and he said let there be light / life, because the Holy Spirit is the source of all life from the beginning.

Is the Holy Ghost a mystery when Jesus states in John 14:23 that we will come and make our home with the believers ?

It is similar to me a person who holds the position of father to my children and the son to my mother. God the Holy Spirit by virtue of creating the world became the Father and when he entered his creation he became the preeminent Son who was given to his own creation (Isaiah 9:6).

No one seen the Father until the Son who was present in the Old Testament as the Angel of Yahweh's presence revealed him according to Isaiah 63:10-11. Then came the temple builder to finally disclose the mysterious person of Genesis 1:2.

What J am explaining to you is what the Word of God says. That is all I can explain. This is why it is important for each believer to read and understand the Word, because in it is God revealed.

I hope that this answered your questions, if not feel free to ask.
 
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Berean777

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The Holy Spirit was not really active in the Old Testament because it is only with the birth, death for our sins in Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit has become available to reside in us.

In the Old Testament, there was the Old Covenant, which is also called the Law of Moses (10 Commandments, ect). The Israelite's had to follow the Law with no mistakes and temporary atonement for sins was made with blood sacrifices of animals (note that it is always blood) and harvest items. This however was not full atonement for sin (like we have now in Jesus Christ), this was before Christ. And atonement for sins was both temporary (they had to do it each year) and was not a full atonement or forgiveness, as we have now with the New Covenant.

It is only with Jesus death, that there is a full and complete atonement for sin. He is the lamb that was slain, not an animal like temporary atonement, but the Son of God who is the complete atonement for sin. The complete atonment and forgiveness of sin is the New Covenant. Since Jesus has completely atoned for our sins, now He can send the Holy Spirit (which is God) to reside in each of His children upon salvation. That is the gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ! That we now have complete and fulfilled forgiveness of sin, in the blood of Christ and can have the Holy Spirit reside in us.

That is the difference between the Old Covenant (Law of Moses) and the New Covenant (forgivenss of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ). Only with the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit available.


That is correct, because the Israelite's were told by God that there would be a Messiah (Savior) sent into the world. The Old Testament tells of this coming Savior, so the Old Testament people knew He would come but that it would not be in their lifetime.





When we think about the timing of Pentecost, it was right after Jesus death. Jesus before He was crucified told His disciples that only after He left them (in death) could He send His Spirit to them. Shortly after Jesus death, He did just that and sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples, which is Pentecost.




The Father has always stayed in heaven. Jesus had just died and resurrected and was once again seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The Holy Spirit was sent to reside inside believer's (disciples) at Pentecost.




Why would the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost need to listen to conversations between the Father and the Son? They are all three God and of 100% like mind. They all know all. There is no listening, it is past listening, they all know what each other are desiring and doing, they are of like minds, completely.


We are never brought into complete understanding of God. We know what we have been shown in God's Word.


What J am explaining to you is what the Word of God says. That is all I can explain. This is why it is important for each believer to read and understand the Word, because in it is God revealed.

I hope that this answered your questions, if not feel free to ask.

Thank you for your time to write these replies. I read them and have below highlighted one very concrete argument that you and others cannot answer. I appreciate your honesty in this matter and applaud your efforts, I see no falsehood in your replies, though there are things missing beyond your comprehension as you have acknowledged.

So in conclusion after reading your replies I have gathered the following information:

Firstly God dwells in his temple partially because only one out of the three members are present.

Secondly God the Holy Spirit remains a mystery, an unknown person who is not spoken of, in regards to his identity in both the Old and New Testaments.

Thirdly there remains a mystery to the relationship of God the Holy Spirit to the other two members of the trinity.


So when I ask Christians who dwells inside of you?

They reply God the Holy Spirit.

Who reveals to you all truths including the mysteries of God?

They reply God the Holy Spirit.

Finally who is God the Holy Spirit?

We don't know he is a mystery.

In conclusion the implication is that the mysterious person the Holy Ghost remains a mystery to believers who they believe is revealing to them the mysteries of God and since you stated "all three God and of 100% like mind", then you are only privy to two members of the trinity and not the third.

So this is the summary:

Only one member of the trinity is present in his holy temple and the other two are absent. The two members who are absent are revealed but the person revealing the two who resides in the temple is unknown a mystery. It would be like saying I live in this same house as my wife as one spiritual flesh, yet I don't know anything about her and she only reveals to me who my children, within the family unite of father, mother and children. This logic is incomprehensible and erroneous at best, I only hope that these concrete points that I have raised are considered by all Christains, including yourself in due time.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Thank you for your time to write these replies. I read them and have below highlighted one very concrete argument that you and others cannot answer. I appreciate your honesty in this matter and applaud your efforts, I see no falsehood in your replies, though there are things missing beyond your comprehension as you have acknowledged.

So in conclusion after reading your replies I have gathered the following information:

Firstly God dwells in his temple partially because only one out of the three members are present.

According to the Word, each member of the Trinity is God on their own, so as stated that is false because if each member is fully God then 'God dwells in you'. What you are probably saying is that the all three of the Trinity of God does not reside in you (although that might confuse other, but that is how it is stated in the Bible so I'm sticking with that.
Secondly God the Holy Spirit remains a mystery, an unknown person who is not spoken of, in regards to his identity in both the Old and New Testaments.
If you mean that He is only called the Holy Spirit, than one could say the same of the Father. The Father is actually more of a mystery and less is said about Him than the others.
Thirdly there remains a mystery to the relationship of God the Holy Spirit to the other two members of the trinity.
What is the mystery? What type of proof of relationship are you looking for? Jesus only did what He saw His Father do while He was on earth. The Holy Spirit always points to Jesus. Why is that so wierd? Why would you not expect the Trinity to be complete accordance. I'm not sure what you think should be there or why you see the Holy Spirit as less than. He is the closest to us in that He is the one that resides in us after salvation. I have a great respect and love for the Holy Spirit. Something seems to be lacking in your understanding. Why not ask more questions and find out?
So when I ask Christians who dwells inside of you?

They reply God the Holy Spirit.

Who reveals to you all truths including the mysteries of God?

They reply God the Holy Spirit.

Finally who is God the Holy Spirit?

We don't know he is a mystery. (this was your reply)

I wrote this in post #186, but I'm including this again here.

In the Word we are told what the Holy Spirit does.

The Holy Spirit convicts the saved Christian of their sin.
The Holy Spirit prays on our behalf for what we do not know that we need.
The Holy Spirit provides spiritual comfort to us when we are distraught.
The Holy Spirit resides in each saved person.
The Holy Spirit confirms with our spirit that we are the children of God.
The Holy Spirit is part of our inheritance in Christ. The Holy Spirit in us is our guarantee of our place in the Body of Christ and our guarantee of our future inheritance after death.

Now if you think about the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is sent to indwell a believer after salvation and forgiveness of sin by our Lord Jesus Christ. So the Holy Spirit's primary role with us is after salvation.

So this is the summary:

Only one member of the trinity is present in his holy temple and the other two are absent. The two members who are absent are revealed but the person revealing the two who resides in the temple is unknown a mystery. It would be like saying I live in this same house as my wife as one spiritual flesh, yet I don't know anything about her and she only reveals to me who my children, within the family unite of father, mother and children. This logic is incomprehensible and erroneous at best, I only hope that these concrete points that I have raised are considered by all Christains, including yourself in due time.

I would word this as

Only one member of the trinity resides inside of us, the temple of the Holy Spirit. Both the Father and the Son are currently in heaven. The Son is seated at the right hand of the Father. The Holy Spirit inside of us is given to us as part of our inheritance in Chrst and is our GUARANTEE that we are indeed Chilldren of God until we receive our full inheritance.
 
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Berean777

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The point is that the Holy Spirit is the greatest who holds both relationships as both Father and Son for God is infinite indivisible Holy Spirit (John 4:24).

I likened his presence in the believer like a wife is to her husband, she is spiritually close to her husband to reveal all things to him, in the same way the Holy Ghost reveals everything about himself for he is what was the mystery in the Old Testament times, that has in the latter days of the 1st century revealed himself as Father and Son relationship.

We cannot say we don't know who personally is the Holy Ghost. We have to say that he is every part our Father and every part the son who brought us into relationship with him as his holy temple where he dwells.

In fact I place all confidence in the Holy Spirit because this is who God is revealed in stages for the invisible Old Testament Father Yahweh, who then revealed himself as the express image in the Son, who then stated that we meaning both the Father and Son will make our home with the believers within the context of who the Holy Ghost is when he resides in his temple not made from human hands.

Therefore when the Holy Ghost dwells in his temple the trinity is in the believer entirely without the absence of any member of the trinity.

The scriptures states that the God dwells in his temple and by that as you have stated that all three are God and therefore all three must be present in the believers.
 
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Berean777

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Do you personally know who the Holy Ghost is on an intimate personal spiritual level, in the same way a husband would intimately know his wife and welcomes her counsel.

In other words if a husband didn't know his wife on a personal and intimate level then how can he accept her counsel, in the same way if a person doesn't know on a personal and spiritually intimate level who the Holy Ghost is and so how can they say we accept counsel from a person who is not made personally known to us at the grass roots.

To me it is inconceivable that the mystery was God is; the Holy Ghost of Abraham, Isaac and Israel and that he within his infinite personal being created two relationships of Father and Son at the inception of the world where he became the invisible Father after creating life when he said in Genesis let there be light and there was life. He then did a further slow reveal when he incarnated himself in flesh as the Son to reveal who the invisible Father is, then finally on Pentecost he did a full reveal by coming himself in Spirit to reside in his temple as Father and Son and we become the third member of his family called his sons and daughters.

Jesus said this and he meant that the Holy Ghost coming would be the Father and the Son. Just listen to what he said.....

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Do you personally know who the Holy Ghost is on an intimate personal spiritual level, in the same way a husband would intimately know his wife and welcomes her counsel.

In other words if a husband didn't know his wife on a personal and intimate level then how can he accept her counsel, in the same way if a person doesn't know on a personal and spiritually intimate level who the Holy Ghost is and so how can they say we accept counsel from a person who is not made personally known to us at the grass roots.

To me it is inconceivable that the mystery was God is; the Holy Ghost of Abraham, Isaac and Israel and that he within his infinite personal being created two relationships of Father and Son at the inception of the world where he became the invisible Father after creating life when he said in Genesis let there be light and there was life. He then did a further slow reveal when he incarnated himself in flesh as the Son to reveal who the invisible Father is, then finally on Pentecost he did a full reveal by coming himself in Spirit to reside in his temple as Father and Son and we become the third member of his family called his sons and daughters.

Jesus said this and he meant that the Holy Ghost coming would be the Father and the Son. Just listen to what he said.....
As you know I disagree with you. Why don't you go read a few of the commentaries. The Matthew Henry Commentary on the Bible is really good. Find it here on http://biblehub.com using the Parallel option at the top. I'd be interested to know what the commentary says. Can you look it up?
 
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Berean777

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As you know I disagree with you. Why don't you go read a few of the commentaries. The Matthew Henry Commentary on the Bible is really good. Find it here on http://biblehub.com using the Parallel option at the top. I'd be interested to know what the commentary says. Can you look it up?

I will thank you.
 
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Berean777

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As you know I disagree with you. Why don't you go read a few of the commentaries. The Matthew Henry Commentary on the Bible is really good. Find it here on http://biblehub.com using the Parallel option at the top. I'd be interested to know what the commentary says. Can you look it up?

Is there a verse or chapter you want me to look up.
Thank you kindly.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Is there a verse or chapter you want me to look up.
Thank you kindly.

I was thinking about the verse that started our whole conversation, I went back and got it.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

I just wonder what the Matthew Henry Commentary says about this verse. Could you look it up on BibleHub, I know with the Parallel option, this commentary is displayed lower on the page.
 
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he-man

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So tired of folks over complicating a mysterious yet simple subject. The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons.
Deuteronomy 6:6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all
 
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he-man

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So tired of folks over complicating a mysterious yet simple subject. The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. .
Deuteronomy 6:6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all
Fortman The "Triune God"
 
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he-man

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If you can explain what's not to be believed with the statement I made, I'd love to hear it. To me, One God..with Father, Son, and HS each identified as God = the Trinity.
So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all
Fortman The "Triune God"
 
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FanthatSpark

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Interesting... This stands out too... John 5:39-40
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

In relation to the human mind in process connected to the seperation only God overcame... Let there be light. Judged as good Gen 1:3-4. Creation under light that equates to "son of man" in what Spirit we are but have lost the way of operating in light , Luke 9:54-56. "I am the Light (Gods commandment of all) of the world in John:8:12 .../physical aspect, "Word (Light) made flesh...Second Adam (The only begotten human of God = Son of God)" Spiritual aspect can not be put in a word... Yet we try to name it . As we are created to name stuff,^_^ to bring it under dominion of a word, sentence, paragraph, chapters, books = knowledge, from a simple name... Flower, to a book like Psychology 101. Now that it is named we can now treat it for we have dominion, correct?

It has boiled down to this for this vessel... The "how" one fulfills John 5:40 matters not to the Spirit . This one has seen and experienced Spirit in different religions, and, being alone in the beat down of sin (us as individuals start to hate sin for the Spirit/Light reached out to realign a lost one), reading & praying over scripture too. So, "who", has it wrong or right has no meaning, made physical, by what these eyes have seen in life experiences. Thus, Muhamid or Jesus, God as three or one is individualized for that particular mind to fullfill John 5:40 in recognition that Gen:1:3 is Rev:1:8. What one translates in all the meat between these books is for God to mold the mind as one reasons with men first then God. After a time in debate with men (As life moves down the time line and truths are seen by our own eyes that Spirit dwells in different races, religions, creeds) we stop debating with men and reason with God. Religion is necessary , yet, as one lets God teach, one finds the crux that religion though necessary matters not to the enlightened of what Spirit we are... Light :clap:. In a humble opinion .
 
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ToBeLoved

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Deuteronomy 6:6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
So you think the Holy Spirit and Christ are equal? Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all

If God says that they are One, then they are One.

Why do you try to create some kind of hierchy that doesn't exist? Do you think God competes against God? Do you think that the Son is jealous of the Father, when the Father gives all things to the Son?

And why do you think that deep down that you understand God?

  • You need a Savior from sin to enter the Kingdom of heaven, enter Jesus, the only one that died for your sin (not the Father, not the Holy Spirit).
  • The Savior that you need was sent by the Father and was sinless because He did what He saw His Father do.
  • Jesus said that you are NOT mine if the Holy Spirit is not in you..
Now what part of the Trinity do you not need or that completed a NEEDED part in your salvation?

You are creating a mountain out of a mole hill. You are creating something that doesn't even exist. You make God out to be petty like us.
 
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Berean777

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I was thinking about the verse that started our whole conversation, I went back and got it.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

I just wonder what the Matthew Henry Commentary says about this verse. Could you look it up on BibleHub, I know with the Parallel option, this commentary is displayed lower on the page.

Here it is.........

[2.] He further explains the promise (v. 23): If a man thus love me, I will manifest myself to him. First, My Father will love him; this he had said before (v. 21), and here repeats it for the confirming of our faith; because it is hard to imagine that the great god should make those the objects of his love that had made themselves vessels of his wrath. Jude wondered that Christ should manifest himself to them; but this answers it, "If my Father love you, why should not I be free with you?" Secondly, We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. This explains the meaning of Christ’s manifesting himself to him, and magnifies the favour. 1. Not only,I will, but, We will, I and the Father, who, in this, are one. See v. 9. The light and love of God are communicated to man in the light and love of the Redeemer, so that wherever Christ is formed the image of God is stamped. 2. Not only, "I will show myself to him at a distance," but, "We will come to him, to be near him, to be with him," such are the powerful influences of divine graces and comforts upon the souls of those that love Christ in sincerity. 3. Not only, "I will give him a transient view of me, or make him a short and running visit," but, We will take up our abode with him which denotes complacency in him and constancy to him. God will not only love obedient believers, but he will take a pleasure in loving them, will rest in love to them, Zep. 3:17. He will be with them as at his home.

The quote at the end says it all, God completely will be with them as at his very home which is in us. The Father and I are one, meaning the one God. Surelyafter reading the commentary that we can see that the fullness of the Godhead must be dwelling in his temple, that includes all three members of the trinity who are the one God.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Here it is.........

[2.] He further explains the promise (v. 23): If a man thus love me, I will manifest myself to him. First, My Father will love him; this he had said before (v. 21), and here repeats it for the confirming of our faith; because it is hard to imagine that the great god should make those the objects of his love that had made themselves vessels of his wrath. Jude wondered that Christ should manifest himself to them; but this answers it, "If my Father love you, why should not I be free with you?" Secondly, We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. This explains the meaning of Christ’s manifesting himself to him, and magnifies the favour. 1. Not only,I will, but, We will, I and the Father, who, in this, are one. See v. 9. The light and love of God are communicated to man in the light and love of the Redeemer, so that wherever Christ is formed the image of God is stamped. 2. Not only, "I will show myself to him at a distance," but, "We will come to him, to be near him, to be with him," such are the powerful influences of divine graces and comforts upon the souls of those that love Christ in sincerity. 3. Not only, "I will give him a transient view of me, or make him a short and running visit," but, We will take up our abode with him which denotes complacency in him and constancy to him. God will not only love obedient believers, but he will take a pleasure in loving them, will rest in love to them, Zep. 3:17. He will be with them as at his home.

The quote at the end says it all, God completely will be with them as at his very home which is in us. The Father and I are one, meaning the one God. Surelyafter reading the commentary that we can see that the fullness of the Godhead must be dwelling in his temple, that includes all three members of the trinity who are the one God.

This is what I am getting looking at the commentary.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary John 14:18-24
Christ promises that he would continue his care of his disciples. I will not leave you orphans, or fatherless, for though I leave you, yet I leave you this comfort, I will come to you. I will come speedily to you at my resurrection. I will come daily to you in my Spirit; in the tokens of his love, and visits of his grace. I will come certainly at the end of time. Those only that see Christ with an eye of faith, shall see him for ever: the world sees him no more till his second coming; but his disciples have communion with him in his absence. These mysteries will be fully known in heaven. It is a further act of grace, that they should know it, and have the comfort of it. Having Christ's commands, we must keep them. And having them in our heads, we must keep them in our hearts and lives. The surest evidence of our love to Christ is, obedience to the laws of Christ. There are spiritual tokens of Christ and his love given to all believers. Where sincere love to Christ is in the heart, there will be obedience. Love will be a commanding, constraining principle; and where love is, duty follows from a principle of gratitude. God will not only love obedient believers, but he will take pleasure in loving them, will rest in love to them. He will be with them as his home. These privileges are confined to those whose faith worketh by love, and whose love to Jesus leads them to keep his commandments. Such are partakers of the Holy Spirit's new-creating grace.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

and my Father will love him: which is to be understood not of the love of the Father, as in his own heart, which is not taken up in time, but was in him from all eternity; nor of the first discovery of it to his people, but of greater manifestations of it to them, and a quicker sense of it in their hearts, and also of some other effects of it, to be enjoyed by them in an higher manner; such as larger measures of grace, more communion with him here, and eternal honour and glory hereafter: and we will come unto him: I who am now going away, and my Father to whom I am going, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, I have promised to pray for: hence a proof of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, of a trinity of persons, of there being neither more nor fewer than three; since neither more nor less can be collected from the context; and of their distinct personality, or it could not be said with any propriety, "we" each of us "will come unto him"; not locally and visibly, but spiritually, by affording our gracious and comfortable presence, the continuance of which is promised next: and make our abode with him; which denotes habitation; for the saints are the dwelling places or temples of the living God, Father, Son, and Spirit; and the constancy and perpetuity of their residence in them, not as a wayfaring man, but always, though this may not be always discerned by believers; and is a wonderful instance of the grace and condescension of God to dwell on earth with sinful men; and a far greater one it is, than if the most mighty potentate on earth should take up his abode in a poor despicable cottage with the meanest of his subjects.


I am getting this from http://biblehub.com/john/14-23.htm

Can I ask where you found what you added above? Just curious.

I think it is the Holy Spirit which Christ tells His disciples that He is going to leave them soon. I really think I am right though, that only the Holy Spirit from the Trinity is indwelling in us because Jesus is at the right hand of the Father.

Mark 16:19
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Acts 5:31

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.


So I guess that you may believe that if you like, but I think as scripture interprets scripture, it would be a mistake to think that all three indwell us right now as believers.

This has been a good conversation, though. Interesting.
 
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Berean777

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This is what I am getting looking at the commentary.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary John 14:18-24
Christ promises that he would continue his care of his disciples. I will not leave you orphans, or fatherless, for though I leave you, yet I leave you this comfort, I will come to you. I will come speedily to you at my resurrection. I will come daily to you in my Spirit; in the tokens of his love, and visits of his grace. I will come certainly at the end of time. Those only that see Christ with an eye of faith, shall see him for ever: the world sees him no more till his second coming; but his disciples have communion with him in his absence. These mysteries will be fully known in heaven. It is a further act of grace, that they should know it, and have the comfort of it. Having Christ's commands, we must keep them. And having them in our heads, we must keep them in our hearts and lives. The surest evidence of our love to Christ is, obedience to the laws of Christ. There are spiritual tokens of Christ and his love given to all believers. Where sincere love to Christ is in the heart, there will be obedience. Love will be a commanding, constraining principle; and where love is, duty follows from a principle of gratitude. God will not only love obedient believers, but he will take pleasure in loving them, will rest in love to them. He will be with them as his home. These privileges are confined to those whose faith worketh by love, and whose love to Jesus leads them to keep his commandments. Such are partakers of the Holy Spirit's new-creating grace.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

and my Father will love him: which is to be understood not of the love of the Father, as in his own heart, which is not taken up in time, but was in him from all eternity; nor of the first discovery of it to his people, but of greater manifestations of it to them, and a quicker sense of it in their hearts, and also of some other effects of it, to be enjoyed by them in an higher manner; such as larger measures of grace, more communion with him here, and eternal honour and glory hereafter: and we will come unto him: I who am now going away, and my Father to whom I am going, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, I have promised to pray for: hence a proof of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, of a trinity of persons, of there being neither more nor fewer than three; since neither more nor less can be collected from the context; and of their distinct personality, or it could not be said with any propriety, "we" each of us "will come unto him"; not locally and visibly, but spiritually, by affording our gracious and comfortable presence, the continuance of which is promised next: and make our abode with him; which denotes habitation; for the saints are the dwelling places or temples of the living God, Father, Son, and Spirit; and the constancy and perpetuity of their residence in them, not as a wayfaring man, but always, though this may not be always discerned by believers; and is a wonderful instance of the grace and condescension of God to dwell on earth with sinful men; and a far greater one it is, than if the most mighty potentate on earth should take up his abode in a poor despicable cottage with the meanest of his subjects.


I am getting this from http://biblehub.com/john/14-23.htm

Can I ask where you found what you added above? Just curious.

I think it is the Holy Spirit which Christ tells His disciples that He is going to leave them soon. I really think I am right though, that only the Holy Spirit from the Trinity is indwelling in us because Jesus is at the right hand of the Father.

Mark 16:19
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Acts 5:31

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.


So I guess that you may believe that if you like, but I think as scripture interprets scripture, it would be a mistake to think that all three indwell us right now as believers.

This has been a good conversation, though. Interesting.

He is inserting the second coming of Christ within the context of John 14, this is the wrong context that he is applying. The context of the entire chapter of John 14 is of the giving of the comforter on Pentecost and not specifically pointing to the second coming because Jesus closes his instructions (commandments) at the end of the chapte by the following statement.....

John 14:30
I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,

I read his full commentary not his concise one that you have now provided, but within the concise that you have brought to my attention, I see he redefines the context of the giving of the Holy Ghost who came on Pentecost to the second coming doctrine. Since Jesus speaks entirely on the comforter coming, therefore this commentary in an way introduces a contradiction by introducing an event thousands of years ahead of Pentecost and that is a usurp of Pentecost. For Jesus to speak of two major events that crisscrosses in instruction would be counterproductive and will loose the meaning of Pentecost entirely.

When he usurps the intended context of Pentecost early on, he then starts to collapse the context by then venturing off into other non related versus throughout the New Testament. This is credulously accepted by those who don't see the slide of hand.

He first tries to soften the verse that states that Jesus will not leave us as orphans and he will come to us, by implying after his resurrections and specifically to his disciples and then he knows that this context alone can't get him past the line, so he combines the resurrection context with another context which is the second coming to finish sewing up the saying of Christ when he makes his home with us in spirit by projecting it in the future at the end time, that is the second coming.

Either way he avoids the Pentecost calling by usurping it and deflecting the attention of the credulace reader to events before and after Pentecost and not Pentecost itself, this to me is a Red herring, hehehe. He is sprung! :idea1:
 
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