Strike While the Iron is Hot

Armoured

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I'm talking about things as they apply to you.
Well I wish you'd stop, because we're supposed to be talking about a community service provider.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Do you think that might because you're so busy trying to argue that I'm somehow arguing against Catholic teaching, when I'm not even discussing it, maybe?
 
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MoonlessNight

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Do you think that might because you're so busy trying to argue that I'm somehow arguing against Catholic teaching, when I'm not even discussing it, maybe?

Look, here's my last post on the issue, unless you actually clarify your position:

You were the one that started this conversation by saying that if the unborn could be proven to be human beings the debate on abortion would be settled. When I pointed out that they are clearly human, you said that there was a difference between humans and human beings. When I tried to figure out what you meant, you were the one who shifted the conversation to being about things that (all?) non-Catholics would agree upon. You have been the one guiding this conversation, and in order for anyone else to follow it we need to know what definitions you are using.

So of course you are discussing the issue. Of course this has necessarily become about what you believe.
 
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Armoured

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Look, here's my last post on the issue, unless you actually clarify your position:

You were the one that started this conversation by saying that if the unborn could be proven to be human beings the debate on abortion would be settled. When I pointed out that they are clearly human, you said that there was a difference between humans and human beings. When I tried to figure out what you meant, you were the one who shifted the conversation to being about things that (all?) non-Catholics would agree upon. You have been the one guiding this conversation, and in order for anyone else to follow it we need to know what definitions you are using.

So of course you are discussing the issue. Of course this has necessarily become about what you believe.
*sigh* I'm explaining myself as best as I can, in all honesty, you seem determined not to understand what I'm talking about.

MY opinions about the difference between human and human being are not important, in the greater scheme of things. We're not talking about my personal opinion. We're talking about a legal abortion provider, right? We're talking about stopping abortion generally, right? So, generally speaking... the issue here is proving to people generally that being human and being AN human being are the same thing. To everyone. Ot at least a legally significant majority.

Hence, you need to do it objectively, i.e. in a manner that can be shown as accurate, regardless of one's personal beliefs, i.e. makes sense to everyone, not just Catholics.

Better?
 
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WarriorAngel

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We have no Federal law governing when abortion may happen - any moment up to birth is legal. I favor a compromise path, in which pro-lifers and pro-choices get together and adopt legislation that allows abortion for those who "need" it most while offering additional help to mothers and their children and placing strong controls on when abortion is and is not legal. Unfortunately, the majority of pro-lifers and pro-choices are extremists who will not accept any compromise, so we'll continue to get what we've always got.
The problem with that is any woman can ascertain a need.
Any woman can claim rape and did not ask to get pregnant and we do know - that rape would be one of the 'needs' in such a list.
It would come down to red tape and proving such a thing - that we know would not happen. Nor could they prove it...
So it would be really keeping abortions at the current rate they are.. if a woman is prepared to kill her child - she is equally prepared to lie to have it done.
 
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Fantine

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Ending Roe v. Wade would not change much about abortion in the U.S. States that are pro preborn life have already pretty much run the abortion clinics out of town. States that are pro-choice attract women seeking abortions from their own states as well as from the others.

I don't think abortions are free anywhere. I knew one girl who held a "benefit concert" to finance her abortion with a local band. Her mother told her she'd give her half the money but that the girl would have to come up with the other half. I thought this was just awful (even though the father was a recidivist felon whose genes (and jeans) are best left remaining on him....) Haven't seen the girl in years, but she has purportedly straightened out quite a bit, although it took several years.

Student daughter told me about a fellow waitress, barely of legal age, with a one year old, a husband, husband's daughter from a teen romance, and one on the way. She is apparently scrounging around to afford an abortion, not paying her phone bill, running out on her lease, heavens knows what else. My guess is that she will gain a baby and lose a credit rating. As a plus, she is married, but it will take a lot more than a decade of NFP for them to straighten their lives out.

How do people get into these messes? Where are their parents?
 
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Armoured

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How do people get into these messes? Where are their parents?
There have been trainwrecks since before there were trains. This is why well intentioned but naive ideas like "just say no" don't work.

Some parents aren't anywhere. Some are, but the kids rebel. Human nature. Don't deny it, can't fight it, best you're going to do is harm minimise it.
 
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MoonlessNight

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i.e. makes sense to everyone,

And this is the problem. Nothing makes sense to everyone, and it hardly has anything to do with whether things are objective or not.

Certainly if I am talking to someone, and he doesn't understand me, I can try to adjust my approach so that he can understand. But I can't adjust my argument so that every single person in the world will understand. That's impossible for anyone to do.

You would realize how ridiculous this standard is if you applied it to your own statements and beliefs. I have disagreed with nearly everything that you have said, and we are even both Catholic. Do you take this as a sign that your beliefs are at least partially false, because I disagree? Of course you don't, and if you are confident in your beliefs and have reasons for holding them, you shouldn't. I could be mistaken after all.

But we can't have a productive conversation worrying about whether some hypothetical general person would agree or disagree. General people do not agree or disagree.

We could perhaps look at a specific question and see through polls or the like (though you must be aware that polls are very poor indicators of general opinion due to selection bias, priming by the pollsters, etc.) but that would be cumbersome to do for every statement that we make, and it seems pointless to me anyway.

What I am interested in is the opinions and beliefs of the people I am actually talking to. You have made it clear that you are not, which makes me wonder why you bother with these message boards at all.
 
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MikeK

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The problem with that is any woman can ascertain a need.
Any woman can claim rape and did not ask to get pregnant and we do know - that rape would be one of the 'needs' in such a list.
It would come down to red tape and proving such a thing - that we know would not happen. Nor could they prove it...
So it would be really keeping abortions at the current rate they are.. if a woman is prepared to kill her child - she is equally prepared to lie to have it done.

We could require that the rape be reported to police within 48 hours to qualify for an abortion - before she would even know she was pregnant. Additionally, there are a wide variety of moral opinions surrounding abortion, and there certainly do exist women who believe that abortion is acceptable and that lying is wrong. Furthermore, the argument that a woman will lie to get an abortion if abortions are otherwise illegal is awful close to the pro-choicer's argument that is abortion is illegal, women will just get illegal, less safe abortions. While there would be some of that, I don't believe it is true in a general sense.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I dont think keeping it legal is an answer.
A desperate woman will lie.
A woman who knows there is no choice - would take more care in abstaining and being responsible if she didnt abstain.

In the 50's - women went away to relatives and opted for adoption services.
 
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Armoured

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We could require that the rape be reported to police within 48 hours to qualify for an abortion - before she would even know she was pregnant. Additionally, there are a wide variety of moral opinions surrounding abortion, and there certainly do exist women who believe that abortion is acceptable and that lying is wrong. Furthermore, the argument that a woman will lie to get an abortion if abortions are otherwise illegal is awful close to the pro-choicer's argument that is abortion is illegal, women will just get illegal, less safe abortions. While there would be some of that, I don't believe it is true in a general sense.
Well... that's problematic, too. There are any number of reasons why a rape victim may not come forward within 48 hours, or, indeed, at all.

I've never quite understood the idea of the "abortion for rape" exemption. I mean, if we believe that foetuses are people, with their own inalienable rights and all, surely that's the case whether they are conceived by rape or not? If everything right to lifers say about abortion is truly said from concern over the foetus' rights, and not as a tool to use pregnancy as punishment for sex, why does rape make abortion OK?
 
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Armoured

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I dont think keeping it legal is an answer.
A desperate woman will lie.
A woman who knows there is no choice - would take more care in abstaining and being responsible if she didnt abstain.

In the 50's - women went away to relatives and opted for adoption services.
You just contradicted yourself. If women "took more care" why did they "go away to relatives"?
 
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MikeK

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Well... that's problematic, too. There are any number of reasons why a rape victim may not come forward within 48 hours, or, indeed, at all.

I've never quite understood the idea of the "abortion for rape" exemption. I mean, if we believe that foetuses are people, with their own inalienable rights and all, surely that's the case whether they are conceived by rape or not? If everything right to lifers say about abortion is truly said from concern over the foetus' rights, and not as a tool to use pregnancy as punishment for sex, why does rape make abortion OK?

I don't think rape makes abortion okay at all. I also don't think we'll achieve a meaningful compromise without at least the possibility of a rape exception.
 
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AvilaSurfer

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I don't think rape makes abortion okay at all. I also don't think we'll achieve a meaningful compromise without at least the possibility of a rape exception.
Rape exception? So we murder the baby? It wasn't the baby's fault that a rape occurred.
 
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MikeK

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Rape exception? So we murder the baby? It wasn't the baby's fault that a rape occurred.

Nobody argued otherwise, but you knocked the heck out of that straw man you built. I favor doing what is possible to reduce abortions to a minimum. Others propose doing virtually nothing while they wait for an all-out ban. Best of luck with that.
 
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ebia

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*sigh* I'm explaining myself as best as I can, in all honesty, you seem determined not to understand what I'm talking about.

MY opinions about the difference between human and human being are not important, in the greater scheme of things. We're not talking about my personal opinion. We're talking about a legal abortion provider, right? We're talking about stopping abortion generally, right? So, generally speaking... the issue here is proving to people generally that being human and being AN human being are the same thing. To everyone. Ot at least a legally significant majority.

Hence, you need to do it objectively, i.e. in a manner that can be shown as accurate, regardless of one's personal beliefs, i.e. makes sense to everyone, not just Catholics.

Better?
You and he don't have the same meaning for the word "objective". It might be more productive to avoid that word.
 
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Fantine

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To get back to the original post, it was asserted that 26% of Republicans feel that a politician's pro-choice position would be a "deal-breaker." Only 8% of Democrats feel that a politician's anti-abortion position would be a deal-breaker.

Or that 92% of Democrats would happily vote for a pro-life politician if he was pro-life on all cylinders (that's why they aren't Republicans, of course).

So the solution is getting Democrats to realize they don't have that much to gain by supporting abortion rights, and that the current policies of the ACA should make unwanted pregnancies as rare as measles or whooping cough.

Yes, I know there are other wedge issues dear to the hearts of social conservatives. Gay marriage. Guns. But I don't think they are as important.
 
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AvilaSurfer

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Nobody argued otherwise, but you knocked the heck out of that straw man you built. I favor doing what is possible to reduce abortions to a minimum. Others propose doing virtually nothing while they wait for an all-out ban. Best of luck with that.
You say tomato, I say abortion is always wrong.......
 
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fat wee robin

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Hearts would change if it was illegal - for then they would have to face their own struggle to obtain a Dr. - pay someone sleazy and hope they dont get infected.
Then they would have to consider they 'might' put themselves in the same precarious situation as their own baby.

However; any argument that many died or many tried - was all hoax to sell abortion on demand.
This here, is wicked nonsense . While it seems to me that the US is a particular case which allows very late abortion , what you have said is full of contempt and judgement of women . Not only do women die in childbirth ,but they leave behind children and families who are bereft of a mother .
There are many 'potential babies 'lost before they can develop at all, a natural process which happens to many many people .If God had meant that a woman could not have any say in whether they were capable of giving birth He would have made the process simpler . Another thing, is that you think that all it takes is a set of cells to make a human being ,and that this Creator God choses to kill a woman with several young children,rather than let go, that which is yet far from a sentient being .You think He cannot remake this clump of cells again ,since it is not yet concious at all,but will take the life of a mother and destroy the lives of her young children for a whole existence , since in so many ways their lives end there when she died .
No God does not do that, human beings who are being judged , they do it .
 
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WarriorAngel

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This here, is wicked nonsense . While it seems to me that the US is a particular case which allows very late abortion , what you have said is full of contempt and judgement of women . Not only do women die in childbirth ,but they leave behind children and families who are bereft of a mother .
There are many 'potential babies 'lost before they can develop at all, a natural process which happens to many many people .If God had meant that a woman could not have any say in whether they were capable of giving birth He would have made the process simpler . Another thing, is that you think that all it takes is a set of cells to make a human being ,and that this Creator God choses to kill a woman with several young children,rather than let go, that which is yet far from a sentient being .You think He cannot remake this clump of cells again ,since it is not yet concious at all,but will take the life of a mother and destroy the lives of her young children for a whole existence , since in so many ways their lives end there when she died .
No God does not do that, human beings who are being judged , they do it .
Yet - the numbers are low of dying in childbirth now.
I for one almost died and would have willingly died for my sons life...if the choice had to be made...which it almost was.

"If God had meant ..."
If God had meant we could kill - He wouldnt have made laws against it nor said HE knew us before HE knit us in the womb... see - BEFORE - we were in the womb.
Furthermore; IF God didnt plan their lives - the women wouldnt get pregnant.

Every single life is preplanned by God for His purposes.
Taking that away is usurping the Creator His Will.

Yet you think - ppl are replaceable clumps of cells. They are not clumps of cells and if you ever saw pictures of the 1st month - the child is a developed human being - with their own heart beat - their own soul - their own Divine gift of a plan by the Lord.

So you are saying - by God preplanning all our lives - He somehow makes mistakes in allowing the woman to get pregnant and it is fully her job to deny Him His will and it is perfectly acceptable to be judge of life rather than God Himself?

DO you know unbiblical your opinion truly is?

One other thing - you cannot come into OBOB and tell us our pro life views are wicked.
Mind where you post.
 
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