He did not make the way for the nations to observe the law given Moses...try again.
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If Gods Law is Perfect, why is it called a curse if you cant keep it perfeclty?
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The law given to Moses came from God and its the same law that was passed along through each generation. Jesus fulfilled the law and abolished all the animal sacrifices, burnt offerings, and any other ceremonial aspect that was in regards to the temple.
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This is the key to understanding the discussion Jesus was having with various sects of Jewish believers.
Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
The Jesus I speak of fulfilled the Law on the cross, he cannot be a high priest of the Law for he isn't a Levite thus a change in the Law had to occur. The Law is a curse because nobody but God could be righteous according to it, but belief in Jesus IS our righteousness for he took the curse of the Law upon the cross to bear on our behalf.
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The Messiah was not given, nor did he come to retransmit the law given Moses. As if all the nations were to eventually fall under it. It was ONLY given to Israel. And in it were commands to completely eradicate other nations, by sword. Yet your position is that it was given for even they to be obedient to?
Abolished? All these things were given to Israel to separate her from the other nations of the world. So this statement plays well into those you are debating here. Who believe Israel has been abolished and replaced by the NEW covenant made not with Israel but with the nations of the world, to spite Israel. This was never the message of God.
However THIS IS the message Paul spoke about:
Romans 4
13 It is clear, then, that God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was not based on obedience to God’s law, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith.
See, how Israel has a new 'relationship' with God.... Not based on the law given Moses but on the works Messiah did 'through her'. Cause if you're denying the existence of Israel and her calling you're denying the works of Messiah. Some here deny Israel's existence and calling, while others are denying the works Messiah did through her. By teaching what Messiah did not teach. Namely that the law is the goal of Messiah's coming. Both these messages are incorrect. Israel exists and is called by God to a place predetermined for her, and Messiah has worked through her producing a relationship based on faith through the indwelling of the Spirit, not through works of the law.
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And if Jesus lives in you he will be doing the will and works of God through you, which ALL the law upholds. You issue is you through out the cup and hold up the baby as if it never needed the cup. Israel is the cup that sanctified the Messiah and you're just going to have to deal with that. Your words negate scores of prophecies (promises) God made regarding Israel. And it completely negates Messiahs message. You have a Messiah condemning the people he comes to redeem. And replacing them with non-people. And then you seem to gloat about it. Jesus is the full representation of the law, and he is supposed to be living through you. But you don't speak as he did about the law, Israel, nor those who believe in him.... You speak another message all together, one of replacement, and nullification. You're really going to have to come to terms that your righteousness is the Holy One of Israel. Who redeems us, as Israel.
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Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Jesus already lived a perfect life under the Law and died for the penalty of everyone who broke it. I see no reason Jesus would be keeping the Law after the cross as the Bible say he fulfilled the Law which means no more Law for him. Oh and BTW the Bible doesn't say Jesus lives in us it says the Holy Spirit does and the Holy Spirit doesn't have to keep the Law.
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Galatians 3:30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
Abraham received two sons. When Ishmael grew up, he joined those who were slaves in Abraham's camp. When Isaac grew up he became a full fledged member of the family.
Ishmael could not receive any inheritance, even though he worked. Isaac received the inheritance, even though he did not work.
Question
What is the inheritance?
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So what do you expect? The NT hadn't been written at that time. It still is long a long ways from teaching the law.
bugkiller
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For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17Jesus made it clear He was NEVER speaking His own words. He said HIS words were HIS FATHER'S WORDS. The law given to Moses is God's words. The words given to Jesus are likewise God's words.
IOW, when Jesus says keep my commandments He's talking about the words of God.
See what Jesus says about the law in Matthew 5:17-19. I think Jesus' words trump anyone else's words.
IOW, Paul's words need to be interpreted IN LINE WITH Jesus' words, not against.
IF an interpretation disagrees with Jesus' words, the interpretation is wrong.
"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." - John 12:49
"Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." - John 5:19
"Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." - John 8:28
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-19
Please explain this verse --
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jn 15:10
Why didn't Jesus just say if you love Me keep the law/
bugkiller
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Well, Holy Spirit, according to Your Word, Your law, instruction to Israel was to do the important things of the law without neglecting the minor things.
Again, according to your Word, the minor requirements was to be oracles, proclaimers of what God would do as a high priest, a future event, cleansing His people and bringing them into the Holy of Holies.
The weightier provisions of the law was to try to observe justice, mercy and faithfulness perfectly, not because you could do it perfectly, (nobody but Jesus could do it perfectly) , but because God said it had to be observed perfectly. That's how you knew you were a sinner, as the publican in the Temple found out. When one observed it like the Pharisee did, deciding unilaterally on our own version of the law, then one lost the aspect of the law that saved: belief, faithfulness. Your Loyalty, your faith was what saved you. This was how the law could be a protector, a guardian.
When Jesus came, He did what Israel was supposed to do, be oracles, proclaimers of what God would do to bring His people into the Holy of Holies. Then He did what God was supposed to do: bring God's People into the Holy of Holies, by offering the required sacrifice, an unblemished Lamb.
Now the People of God are supposed to proclaim what God did, a past event, and do what God did, bring people into the Holy of Holies, by the Holy Spirit. Which is the inheritance.
The testament. To be receivers of the provisions of the will. To be blessings to the world.
Some how, Holy Spirit, I get the idea that Israel was supposed to receive the inheritance. Instead she became the son of the slave woman, because she was blinded. So that the son of the free woman would not be Israel, but those who had faith in God. Which You intended anyway. That is why Abraham is really the father of all who have faith in God. Israel didn't really have Abraham as their father, because the real children of Abraham were the children through sharing in faith, not sharing in blood lineage.
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IMO, the inheritance is every good thing promised to Abraham and his descendants through an eternal covenant, which was renewed with Isaac, then Jacob, then with the sons of Jacob (Israel) via Moses (aka Mosaic covenant), and FINALLY with the sons of Jacob (Israel) via Messiah (aka New covenant).
IOW, pretty much every eternal covenant blessing and eternal covenant promise you see anywhere in scripture.
It's always been received by faith, starting with Abraham. (Hebrews 11)
Works of the law could never attain it.
But faith has always expressed itself in obedience to the words of God. (James 2:17, James 2:26, Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26, Hebrews 11, Joshua 1:7-8)
IOW, obeying God's every word (law) is a lifestyle of goodness and wisdom, but ALL things are attained by FAITH in GOD.
Can anyone obey all God's words (laws) perfectly? In our own power NO.
But does that mean we ignore, or throw away God's holy perfect laws and do as we please? No.
By faith we lean on God and get His grace ability (power) to do whatever HE says.
"Remember your leaders and superiors in authority [for it was they] who brought to you the Word of God. Observe attentively and consider their manner of living (the outcome of their well-spent lives) and imitate their FAITH (FAITH IS their conviction that God exists and is the Creator and Ruler of all things, the Provider and Bestower of eternal salvation through MESSIAH, and their leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness)." - Hebrews 13:7 AMP
"[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for [DO] His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight." - Philippians 2:13 AMP
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SHORT ANSWER
Jesus is saying "imitate HIS way of keeping God's laws".
LONG ANSWER
Each Rabbi taught his students his version of how to keep God's laws, much like how denominations today teach their people to interpret scripture according to their doctrines.
Jesus disagreed with some of the Pharisees on THEIR interpretation of how to keep God's holy and perfect laws. So saying "keep my words" "keep my commandments" is like saying "keep my interpretation of how to keep God's law".
Scripture is filled with learning from (imitating) teachers, and learning from (imitating) God. In fact Jesus claimed to be obeying and imitating God in everything HE did.
John tells us to imitate Jesus (3 John 1:11)
Here's a few more of the many examples of learning and imitating: (Luke 11:1, Micah 4:2, John 6:45, Psalm 71:17, Psalm 119:102, Isaiah 54:13, Romans 11:14, 1 Corinthians 11:1, Ephesians 5:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:7, Hebrews 13:7, 3 John 1:11, Luke 6:40, Matthew 10:24, Ephesians 4:11)
JESUS ONLY AFFIRMS THE LAW
There's no RED words saying the law is done away with, but there are RED words AFFIRMING the law.
There's also no NEW commandments. Everything Jesus says is somewhere in the OT. He's taking what's old and making it renewed, refreshed, correcting popular misunderstandings, and taking it to the deepest levels of the heart motive behind God's commands (love, grace, mercy, and trusting God).
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Reread what you just said and see what sense that makes. How can Jesus be teaching from the Torah and explaining what it actually means to the Jews, but be a long way from teaching from it at the same time? If the NT was not put together yet, its clear that what Jesus and the disciples had was good enough to bring the message of salvation. Please go and read your bible
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Amen - so also did Paul teach from "Scripture" - the O.T.
And affirmed the point of obedience -
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388922, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible
Romans 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
...
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/QUOTE]
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Matt 28 gives the great commission to the Disciples telling them to teach others - exactly what Christ taught them... and that is what we see happening when they write their Gospel accounts.
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And, somehow, someone accidentally neglected to say anything about the necessity of going to church to hear a sermon on Saturday.
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disciple1
Newbie
1 john chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point their guilty of breaking all of it.
Romans chapter 2
2 You, therefore, have no excuse,A)'> you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.B)'> 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the richesC)'> of his kindness,D)'> forbearanceE)'> and patience,F)'> not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?G)'>
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FlyingTurtle
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Emmm... okay so... here's what I think...
NT is clear that if we try to be justified by the law, we cannot and in doing so we bring ourselves under the curse because as many are under the works of the law are under the curse, because cursed is everyone who does not keep the whole law. And humans are not capable of being sanctified by the law because we cannot keep the whole of it.
But then comes Christ who kept the whole law. And then he died. And we, we are given a chance to now be in Christ through His death and resurrection.
So the answer is simple. Since Christ fulfilled the law, and we are supposed to be in Christ and Christ in us, the only way for us to fulfill the law is by following Jesus and living in Him. It's only when we live in the One who fulfilled the law that His lawful righteousness becomes ours by virtue of being in Him.
So the only way we can fulfill the law is through submission to Christ.
NT is clear that if we try to be justified by the law, we cannot and in doing so we bring ourselves under the curse because as many are under the works of the law are under the curse, because cursed is everyone who does not keep the whole law. And humans are not capable of being sanctified by the law because we cannot keep the whole of it.
But then comes Christ who kept the whole law. And then he died. And we, we are given a chance to now be in Christ through His death and resurrection.
So the answer is simple. Since Christ fulfilled the law, and we are supposed to be in Christ and Christ in us, the only way for us to fulfill the law is by following Jesus and living in Him. It's only when we live in the One who fulfilled the law that His lawful righteousness becomes ours by virtue of being in Him.
So the only way we can fulfill the law is through submission to Christ.
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