The Gospel

daq said:

Hi LoveofTruth, it appears you have not understood what all has been said. The tares grow up with the wheat, which you are, and therefore they are mixed already and must be purged, (and that is by fire).

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Hello daq,

he tares and wheat are very different and the tares only will be "GATHERED" apart from the Wheat and thrown into the fire

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are burned, and the wheat are not, they are gathered into the barn. This one verse shatters all talk of believers going into the lake of fire only the lost damned souls go there for ever and ever, eternally, never to have the fire quenched or their worm to die, tormented etc

daq said:

As already said: goats and tares are essentially the same analogy, Esau was "hairy" or "shaggy" which is HSN#8163 "sa`iyr"-devil-goat-satyr in Genesis 27:11, (see also the symbolic usages of the same word in Leviticus 16:10, Leviticus 17:7, Isaiah 34:14, and Daniel 8:21).

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When I spoke of devil or fallen angels and humans being together I was speaking of the lake of fire for those who were lost and the fallen angels, and the devils of hell as well. And the dividing of the sheep and the goats shows also that no believer will go through the lake of fire

"32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"( Matthew 25:32-34)

daq said:

One must ignore the overall context of the Acts 10 passage to respond in the way in which you have responded. The vision has nothing to do with eating physical food but rather testimony, and that is, Jews receiving the testimony of Gentiles which was until that time forbidden among the Jews. Peter is told to "Rise, kill, and eat" and this has nothing to do with physical food as Peter later comes to understand. It has to do with Cornelius and his household whom God explains to Peter have already been cleansed.

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I also in my response said,

"God also used this to show that he can eat with Gentiles and that the Gentiles are also part of the salvation"

I am very careful with my words, its not so easy to try and twist what I say.

And yes it did have something to do with eating unclean animals as well. God told peter to eat these things and Peter said not so Lord. Peter was still struggling with the law and the clean and unclean animals, and that he should not eat with gentiles and that the gentiles were lost etc . Yes God was showing peter that He does save gentiles. But he also was showing peter other things as well.

daq said:

You therefore left out large portions of the "Gospel of Paul" when you wrote at the top of one of your previous posts which I have quoted again herein for reference, where you said, "and the Gospel is". Who therefore is preaching a "different Gospel" if you left out critical portions from even Paul himself, such as Ephesians 2:11-19, where Paul clearly states that Yeshua has broken down the middle wall of partitioning and made a way for the Gentiles to enter into covenant relationship with God at Golgotha? at the cross of Messiah?

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No I left out nothing, Paul clearly defines the gospel he preached in 1 Cor 15, no question about that. he preached that Gospel to Jews and gentiles. So clearly in the fact that he preached to gentiles this showed that Jews and gentiles can be saved and that the gospel s for them. Paul in his other letters defines all sorts of aspects of Gods work and teaches many things for the body. But the initial gospel of salvation is stated as clear as it can be in 1 Cor 15. To add more to that gospel is not what Paul is doing. Some will try with this kind of thinking you are presenting to add all things Paul spoke of, such as election , predestination, the rapture, the discussion of the law done away and sabbaths etc . But this is not the gospel , these are aspects of our faith and walk and understanding of Gods revelation to men. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." (John 12:24). This dying and rising again is the gospel in type. Abraham the father giving His son to die and Knowing God was able to raise him up from the dead (Hebrews 11) was the gospel in type. Men looking to Gods righteousness and hungering and thirsting after it and when they believe this the Seed of God in them goes into their heart and rises up is the gospel in reality in their hearts, the power of the gospel, the hope of the gospel. But these are deep aspects and too much to get into here, maybe another thread.

daq said:

...
12. Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Since it was done three times we may not be given the exact words which were spoken every time, or the same thing may have been stated all three times, we simply do not know: but we do know the interpretation of what Peter learned by what he says to Cornelius and his household. It is therefore undeniable that the passage I referenced previously to you is indeed part of the interpretation of the dream-vision which Peter received; and by the mouth of Peter himself Luke gives us this portion of the interpretation:

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This first part is no doubt speaking about literal food AS WELL as a spiritual aspect towards gentiles. slay and eat is literal food. And Peter called the food common and unclean. God said not to say this anymore. This first part can also be used today towards those who forbidd to eat certain meat and other things. Paul said nothing is to be refused and we can eat all things. This shows peter also that the law was changed, and the clean and unclean animals are no more. Yes now God also was referring to the gentile and eating with them their food and that they can be saved and cleansed. Which Cornelius was already cleansed, he was like an OT saint.

daq said:

28. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;

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Peter goes over the law (NOT THE MOSAIC LAW) but this law was a Halakah law or oral tradition, and many of Peters day among the Jews were struggling with the law and traditions.

daq said:

but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

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daq said:

29. Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

This is the statement from the dream-vision:

"What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

This is the interpretation by the mouth of Peter himself:

"God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

When and where therefore were Cornelius and his household cleansed?

As far as "unclean" have you not read in the New Testament?,

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It is interesting that you did not comment on the verses I gave you about unclean people and simply ignored the verses I will post them here again for you

"1 Corinthians 7:14 >>
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. "

And another correction to your thinking is this verse,

"Ephesians 5:5 >>
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Now this is your error in this whole talk. You quote Peter saying, ""God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.". But you forget God's actual words to peter here in this teaching you are trying to show. God said, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."( Acts 10:15 KJV). Notice ONLY what God hath cleansed is clan, not what God has NOT cleansed. If you take the expression that God has cleansed all gentiles as Cornelius, then as you wrongly do you would say that all gentiles are saved. But this was not the case. Cornelius had been saved as OT saints were and God saw his prayers and works of faith and guided peter to Him to show him more fully what he must know and believe, and in doing so He had the fulness and baptism with the Holy Ghost given in the name of Jesus.

But God cleansed Cornelius and that is why he was not unclean. Peter realized that gentiles can be saved and come into the covenant. But this does not mean all Gentiles are saved or clean. If this was the case then paul, (speaking by the Spirit) would have been in error when he said,

""Ephesians 5:5 >>
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

2 Corinthians 12:21
And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

So clearly people can be called "unclean" if they are not saved and walk in such uncleaness. Such people have not been clean by God . But Corneli us was cleansed by God and God was also showing that all gentiles can come to God for salvation. Peter by no means after this revelation was saying that all gentiles and all men are now clean. he said this in the same context, of Acts 10

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34 KJV)

Clearly there is conditions here. If men do not fear God and work righteousness they will not be accepted with Him. And to work righteousness all men must be in faith, For God works in us to will and to do. The righteousness peter speaks of here is not self righteousness. This is the righteousness of of man that has fear of God and has repented and trusted in Gods righteousness even as Abraham did and others. John tells us that those who work righteousness this way are born of God,

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:29)

But with your argument ,this is part of your error to take verses out of the biblical context and try to twist them to mean something else.

So to sum up this point. Cornelius, was cleansed by God being in the righteousness of faith and needed to know the salvation offered by Christ as all do, and having known this to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This is Gods plan for all men.

1. Peter would not eat with gentiles following oral traditions of the Jewish law

2. God gave a vision to eat unclean and common animals that peter had never eaten.

3. God was showing Peter many things with this vision. Such as the law was changed all animals can be eaten, nothing o food is unclean of itself as Paul also wrote.

4. God was also showing Peter that the gentiles can be saved. In particular Cornelius who God has cleaned already.

5. Peter then realized that in every nation (Gentile nations as well) he that fears God and works righteousness will be excepted. But those who do not fear God and work unrighteousness will not be accepted.

6. Cornelius was accepted by God even before peter saw him and after.

7. Peter was not to be rash or quick to call men unclean who God cleansed. But Paul called men ( as he spoke the word of God ) unclean. This is because not all men are clean. Only those who God cleanses. If God has not cleansed them then they are unclean. As we see in other scriptures

This whole section shows how some universalist and others take parts of scripture and twist them to try and fit their views, but we must not do such things.

People can also be unclean when they have an unclean spirit in them it would seem, ""And they that were vexed with unclean spirits:..."(Luke 16:18 KJV)

"

daq said:

Here is another critical portion of the "Gospel of Paul" you did not mention:

2 Corinthians 5:14 ASV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

2 Corinthians 5:14 RSV
14. For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.

2 Corinthians 5:14 NJB
14. For the love of Christ overwhelms us when we consider that if one man died for all, then all have died;

2 Corinthians 5:14 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
14. for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,

And now the love of Messiah compels us; having thus judged, that if one died for all, then surely all died in that Great Day of Atonement at Golgotha: for if the light of every man was slain, then every man likewise died; yea, even every living soul in the sea died . . .

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Paul did say Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor 15:3) This "our" sins covers all men Jews and Gentiles" and the wages of sin is death. Paul would use the law to lead men to Christ by using the law to show sin, but preaching repentance from sin and exposing men in death, then telling men to believe the gospel are different things. Yes, all are dead in trespasses and sins, and all who are not born again are spiritually dead. But this is not the gospel. To preach repentance from sin exposed that all men are dead in sin is the preaching of repentacne. Then when men see that are all dead and in need of salvation and life ( Christ) they can come to Christ to have life. Only then are they alive and born again and only then are they no longer dead. This happens when they believe the gospel that Christ died for their sins and rose again.

"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." (Romans 5:12-15 KJV)

So because of sin all are dead. Paul would preach the law to expose the sin. and preach repentance from sin, then the gospel. But men must repent and believe the gospel to be saved, as it is written. Repentance preaching is not the gospel. So as you can see Paul was right and so am I as I agree with him that the gospel is exactly what he said it was in 1 Cor 15. And you and anyone else who adds to that gospel is wrong. I am not talking about other teachings in Christ and understandings of Gods work etc. But the saving gospel is clear

"15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."(2 Corinthians 5:15 KJV)

Notice that only those who "LIVE" are the ones who are saved and alive. If they are not in "life" then they are in "death" and will go to the lake of fire. Death passed upon all men in that all have sinned, and so if men die in their sins they die in death and death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire.

Also when Paul says that one died for all then all were dead . It's a comment on the gospel as well, it's like a man saying if Christ died for me THEN I needed him to because I couldn't do it myself I must be dead myself and incapable of dying for myself.

ron4shua said:

http://biblehub.com/isr/john/8.htm

51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

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Yes it reads,

"51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." (John 8:51 KJV)

notice the condition there. "IF". If men do not keep his saying they shall see death and go to the lake of fire.

LoveofTruth said:

Hello daq,

he tares and wheat are very different and the tares only will be "GATHERED" apart from the Wheat and thrown into the fire

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are burned, and the wheat are not, they are gathered into the barn. This one verse shatters all talk of believers going into the lake of fire only the lost damned souls go there for ever and ever, eternally, never to have the fire quenched or their worm to die, tormented etc



When I spoke of devil or fallen angels and humans being together I was speaking of the lake of fire for those who were lost and the fallen angels, and the devils of hell as well. And the dividing of the sheep and the goats shows also that no believer will go through the lake of fire

"32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"( Matthew 25:32-34)



I also in my response said,

"God also used this to show that he can eat with Gentiles and that the Gentiles are also part of the salvation"

I am very careful with my words, its not so easy to try and twist what I say.

And yes it did have something to do with eating unclean animals as well. God told peter to eat these things and Peter said not so Lord. Peter was still struggling with the law and the clean and unclean animals, and that he should not eat with gentiles and that the gentiles were lost etc . Yes God was showing peter that He does save gentiles. But he also was showing peter other things as well.



No I left out nothing, Paul clearly defines the gospel he preached in 1 Cor 15, no question about that. he preached that Gospel to Jews and gentiles. So clearly in the fact that he preached to gentiles this showed that Jews and gentiles can be saved and that the gospel s for them. Paul in his other letters defines all sorts of aspects of Gods work and teaches many things for the body. But the initial gospel of salvation is stated as clear as it can be in 1 Cor 15. To add more to that gospel is not what Paul is doing. Some will try with this kind of thinking you are presenting to add all things Paul spoke of, such as election , predestination, the rapture, the discussion of the law done away and sabbaths etc . But this is not the gospel , these are aspects of our faith and walk and understanding of Gods revelation to men. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." (John 12:24). This dying and rising again is the gospel in type. Abraham the father giving His son to die and Knowing God was able to raise him up from the dead (Hebrews 11) was the gospel in type. Men looking to Gods righteousness and hungering and thirsting after it and when they believe this the Seed of God in them goes into their heart and rises up is the gospel in reality in their hearts, the power of the gospel, the hope of the gospel. But these are deep aspects and too much to get into here, maybe another thread.



This first part is no doubt speaking about literal food AS WELL as a spiritual aspect towards gentiles. slay and eat is literal food. And Peter called the food common and unclean. God said not to say this anymore. This first part can also be used today towards those who forbidd to eat certain meat and other things. Paul said nothing is to be refused and we can eat all things. This shows peter also that the law was changed, and the clean and unclean animals are no more. Yes now God also was referring to the gentile and eating with them their food and that they can be saved and cleansed. Which Cornelius was already cleansed, he was like an OT saint.



Peter goes over the law (NOT THE MOSAIC LAW) but this law was a Halakah law or oral tradition, and many of Peters day among the Jews were struggling with the law and traditions.




It is interesting that you did not comment on the verses I gave you about unclean people and simply ignored the verses I will post them here again for you

"1 Corinthians 7:14 >>
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. "

And another correction to your thinking is this verse,

"Ephesians 5:5 >>
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Now this is your error in this whole talk. You quote Peter saying, ""God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.". But you forget God's actual words to peter here in this teaching you are trying to show. God said, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."( Acts 10:15 KJV). Notice ONLY what God hath cleansed is clan, not what God has NOT cleansed. If you take the expression that God has cleansed all gentiles as Cornelius, then as you wrongly do you would say that all gentiles are saved. But this was not the case. Cornelius had been saved as OT saints were and God saw his prayers and works of faith and guided peter to Him to show him more fully what he must know and believe, and in doing so He had the fulness and baptism with the Holy Ghost given in the name of Jesus.

But God cleansed Cornelius and that is why he was not unclean. Peter realized that gentiles can be saved and come into the covenant. But this does not mean all Gentiles are saved or clean. If this was the case then paul, (speaking by the Spirit) would have been in error when he said,

""Ephesians 5:5 >>
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

2 Corinthians 12:21
And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

So clearly people can be called "unclean" if they are not saved and walk in such uncleaness. Such people have not been clean by God . But Corneli us was cleansed by God and God was also showing that all gentiles can come to God for salvation. Peter by no means after this revelation was saying that all gentiles and all men are now clean. he said this in the same context, of Acts 10

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34 KJV)

Clearly there is conditions here. If men do not fear God and work righteousness they will not be accepted with Him. And to work righteousness all men must be in faith, For God works in us to will and to do. The righteousness peter speaks of here is not self righteousness. This is the righteousness of of man that has fear of God and has repented and trusted in Gods righteousness even as Abraham did and others. John tells us that those who work righteousness this way are born of God,

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:29)

But with your argument ,this is part of your error to take verses out of the biblical context and try to twist them to mean something else.

So to sum up this point. Cornelius, was cleansed by God being in the righteousness of faith and needed to know the salvation offered by Christ as all do, and having known this to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This is Gods plan for all men.

1. Peter would not eat with gentiles following oral traditions of the Jewish law

2. God gave a vision to eat unclean and common animals that peter had never eaten.

3. God was showing Peter many things with this vision. Such as the law was changed all animals can be eaten, nothing o food is unclean of itself as Paul also wrote.

4. God was also showing Peter that the gentiles can be saved. In particular Cornelius who God has cleaned already.

5. Peter then realized that in every nation (Gentile nations as well) he that fears God and works righteousness will be excepted. But those who do not fear God and work unrighteousness will not be accepted.

6. Cornelius was accepted by God even before peter saw him and after.

7. Peter was not to be rash or quick to call men unclean who God cleansed. But Paul called men ( as he spoke the word of God ) unclean. This is because not all men are clean. Only those who God cleanses. If God has not cleansed them then they are unclean. As we see in other scriptures

This whole section shows how some universalist and others take parts of scripture and twist them to try and fit their views, but we must not do such things.

People can also be unclean when they have an unclean spirit in them it would seem, ""And they that were vexed with unclean spirits:..."(Luke 16:18 KJV)

"

Paul did say Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor 15:3) This "our" sins covers all men Jews and Gentiles" and the wages of sin is death. Paul would use the law to lead men to Christ by using the law to show sin, but preaching repentance from sin and exposing men in death, then telling men to believe the gospel are different things. Yes, all are dead in trespasses and sins, and all who are not born again are spiritually dead. But this is not the gospel. To preach repentance from sin exposed that all men are dead in sin is the preaching of repentacne. Then when men see that are all dead and in need of salvation and life ( Christ) they can come to Christ to have life. Only then are they alive and born again and only then are they no longer dead. This happens when they believe the gospel that Christ died for their sins and rose again.

"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." (Romans 5:12-15 KJV)

So because of sin all are dead. Paul would preach the law to expose the sin. and preach repentance from sin, then the gospel. But men must repent and believe the gospel to be saved, as it is written. Repentance preaching is not the gospel. So as you can see Paul was right and so am I as I agree with him that the gospel is exactly what he said it was in 1 Cor 15. And you and anyone else who adds to that gospel is wrong. I am not talking about other teachings in Christ and understandings of Gods work etc. But the saving gospel is clear

"15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."(2 Corinthians 5:15 KJV)

Notice that only those who "LIVE" are the ones who are saved and alive. If they are not in "life" then they are in "death" and will go to the lake of fire. Death passed upon all men in that all have sinned, and so if men die in their sins they die in death and death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire.

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if you think posting great swaths of information "wins" arguments then more power to ya but I simply am not going to go over every little detail that you post when you post so much in your responses. Our opinions of what we read are entirely different and this is shown by several of the passages which you quoted again to make some of your points:

Ephesians 5:5 W/H
5 τοῦτο γὰρ ἴστε γινώσκοντες ὅτι πᾶς πόρνος ἢ ἀκάθαρτος ἢ πλεονέκτης, ὅ ἐστιν εἰδωλολάτρης, οὐκ ἔχει κληρονομίαν ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ.
5. For this you know of a surety, that no inappropriate contentos-fornicator, nor akathartos-unclean thing, nor pleonektes-coveter, which are eidololatres-idolaters, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Messiah and Elohim.

Those things speak of sin personified which are devils in the doctrine of Yeshua.

So then, as in some of the other passages which you quoted concerning uncleanness or being unclean, those things do indeed need to be repented of and the sin thereof needs to be cut off just as I have been saying through the Testimony of Yeshua. A good example is Galatians 5:19 which you quoted:

Galatians 5:19
19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness:

Understand? Paul says those are works of the FLESH. And where does sin personified dwell? Sin personified dwells in "the flesh" which is likened to the outer-bounds-commons-profane area of your own body temple-house. Paul says exactly the same in the following passage. And not only does he speak of Torah being spiritual, which is the opposite of what you suggest by your comments, but he reveals that there are two kinds of Torah: the Torah of Elohim which is of the mind and the inward man, (Horeb) and also Torah of Sinai, which is "of below" and used against the flesh, sin, and therefore sin personified, (devils). And Paul says that he uses BOTH.

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me ( that is, in my flesh, ) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; [Horeb] but with the flesh the law of sin [Sinai].

This has everything to do with all that has been said in the previous pages about those "unruly members" of "the household" of every person who claims to be in Messiah.

LoveofTruth said:

Notice carefully that the second death is the lake of fire and only unbelievers and other type of sins are in there, no "BELIEVERS" are going there.

This is so basic I marvel that some can see it any other way and try to twist scripture so horribly to escape the reality of the lake of fire.

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There are a couple of things you don't seem to understand here, or either you just don't want to.
All of us here, once believed everything that "YOU DO RIGHT NOW" but The Spirit of God opened our eyes, and there is NO way that we could possibly go back to your way of thinking.

You believe that the wheat and the tares are two separate kind of people, "believers and unbelievers". But their not.
They both live and grow together in the same person, in the same soul/life. I understand where you are coming from and this is what is causing you to see everything else, as them and us, or you and them.

Cain and Able, Jacob and Esau, The twins, The one child that was presented to Solomon for a decision, Lazarus and the rich man...etc etc. they are all ONE Person in type, that represent a Pattern of what is within us all that must be severed, purged, and cleansed by fire.
The two in the bed, the two in the field, one caught up the other left...I could go on and on.
God's word is Spirit and Life.

And you keep saying that The Lake of fire is a separation from The Lord, but it's not.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The only things that are tormented here are the things within us "BECAUSE", they are in the Presence of The Lamb and The Holy angels. It is a separation of sorts, But ONLY the things within us that are not of Him. Those things are of the devil and his messengers that we have ALL partaken of at one time or another, they must be cleansed.
The ones that are not HURT by the second death is because they have been walking with Him in The Fire all along, having it done little by little. Letting the fire consume them, so we can share in His Life here and now.
But make no mistake, ALL will have their part in the Lake of fire.

We are on two different perceptions here, and I see no need to further this convo. You are not going to see the things we do until YOU experience that fire for yourself, and we can't go back, and wouldn't want to anyhow to your way of thinking, we already been there and have come out. All Praise be to The One who sits on The Throne

anonymouswho said:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

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Ah yes, In the beginning!!! Love it..my playground, it is a Seed Bed for Truth, because it is in SEED form.
This scripture that you posted could ONLY be The one who is The very image and likeness of God Himself which is His Son.

Notice the word man here is different from the word man in the second ch.

daq said:

if you think posting great swaths of information "wins" arguments then more power to ya

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I am not trying to win an argument. I am seeking to help you and those here with the heretical doctrines and confusion to come to the Light of Christ truth as I seek the answers from the anointing of God according to scripture. To the measure I have been given.

If you are just trying to "win" an argument , that's is not good.

And I am not trying to write volumes here, believe me I am trying hard to keep all my post as short as possible but there is so much error you speak it takes time to weigh through it.

daq said:

Understand? Paul says those are works of the FLESH. And where does sin personified dwell? Sin personified dwells in "the flesh" which is likened to the outer-bounds-commons-profane area of your own body temple-house.

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And still if s person commits idolatry they are an idolater (or a person that commits idolatry) and if they commit uncleaness then THEY are an UNCLEAN PERSON

daq said:

Ephesians 5:5 W/H
5 τοῦτο γὰρ ἴστε γινώσκοντες ὅτι πᾶς πόρνος ἢ ἀκάθαρτος ἢ πλεονέκτης, ὅ ἐστιν εἰδωλολάτρης, οὐκ ἔχει κληρονομίαν ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ.
5. For this you know of a surety, that no inappropriate contentos-fornicator, nor akathartos-unclean thing, nor pleonektes-coveter, which are eidololatres-idolaters, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Messiah and Elohim.

Those things speak of sin personified which are devils in the doctrine of Yeshua.

So then, as in some of the other passages which you quoted concerning uncleanness or being unclean, those things do indeed need to be repented of and the sin thereof needs to be cut off

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In Ephesians 5:5 we read,

"5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."(Ephesians 5:5 KJV)

The word for unclean person is

"from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 2508 (meaning cleansed); impure (ceremonially, morally (lewd) or specially, (demonic)):--foul, unclean."

The bible calls the one who coots uncleaness a "person" not a "thing" as you put it .

If a man commits fornication he is a person who commits it and so is called a fornicator the same for a person who commits idolatry they are an idolater. The person who commits uncleaness is not called an uncleanicator but rather an unclean person. This is very simple . So a person can be called unclean just as a person who commits idolatry can be called an idolater. The son is manifest in the person who does it and so they are unclean persons. But in Christ if believers have crucified the flesh they are not unclean they have been cleansed and by the Lord.

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 Jogn 1:9)

This cleansing is from all unrighteousness even from the son of uncleaness in any form . The person who is cleansed from all unrighteousness is called a Christian the person who is not cleansed is called an unbeliever, unclean person, child of the devil, etc

LoveofTruth said:

I am not trying to win an argument. I am seeking to help you and those here with the heretical doctrines and confusion to come to the Light of Christ truth as I seek the answers from the anointing of God according to scripture. To the measure I have been given.

If you are just trying to "win" an argument , that's is not good.

And I am not trying to write volumes here, believe me I am trying hard to keep all my post as short as possible but there is so much error you speak it takes time to weigh through it.



And still if s person commits idolatry they are an idolater (or a person that commits idolatry) and if they commit uncleaness then THEY are an UNCLEAN PERSON

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It seems now you are just getting defensive which is fine and understandable but if I was trying to "win" arguments don't you think my last post back to you would have been bigger, longer, and stronger than your previous gigantic post to me?

2KnowHim said:

Or haven't you ever read about the three men in Daniel that went into the firey furnace?
Dan 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Dan 3:20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

These were Righteous men, and even they went through the fire.
And if we are to be created in His image and likeness then we too Will/Must go through the fire, it is a Divine Purifying Fire, that we are purged in.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

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Amen, and let us not neglect Daniel in the den of lions also, which he came OUT FROM unscathed. OUT FROM the fiery furnace, (the three friends of Daniel) and OUT FROM the den of lions, (Daniel himself). The same is the reason why Revelation 2:11 employs "ek" meaning OUT FROM:

Original Strong's Ref. #1537
Romanized ek
Pronounced ek
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):

Revelation 2:11 Transliterated unaccented
11. Ho echon ous akousato ti to Pneuma legei tais ekklesiais. Ho nikon ou-me adikethe ek tou thanatou tou deuterou."
11. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the congregations; He that overcomes shall not be hurt out from the second death.

Hi Daq, would you do me a favor? I don't know if this applies or not, I don't have the translations you do but since were on the subject of "out of" would you post this scripture in this trans. for me. Especially the word Resurrection in vs. :11
I think if I'm not mistaken it refers to the "OUT" Resurrection and is ONLY here. Thank you my friend.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

anonymouswho said:

Ha! Yes I knew there was something wrong. I'm still not entirely sure what to make of all of this, and that is why I felt led to start with a question about John 5:27, instead of simply asserting it was about Yeshua. That is why I said I believe there is something deeper going on here.

I do have another question though. This question is why I said I feel as though it cannot be any other way, but I'm here to learn.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Corinthians 4:44

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by (in) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (through) him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by (in) him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:15

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by (through) whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" Hebrews 1:3

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:9

And just in case anyone gets the wrong idea about what I'm thinking (because I know this is a well researched idea):

"For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Hebrews 2:5

Thank you so much daq. I am truly blessed that you decided to stay. I really need someone to help me out with this. God bless you my friend.

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The words of Agur the gatherer, son of Yaqeh the obedient, the burden: Thus says the Geber, for El has arrived, for El has arrived and devoured: Surely I am lower than an iysh, and the understanding of an adam have I not, neither was I taught wisdom: but the knowledge of the holy ones I know. Who has ascended and descended the shamayim? Who has gathered the ruach in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name? and what is the name of His Son if you can tell? Every imrat-memra of Eloahh is refined: He is a magen to them that put their trust in Him, and no one has ascended into the shamayim if not the one from the shamayim has descended: the Son of man, who descended in the somatikos bodily form of the pneumatikos ethereal body of the Yonah Dove. Counsel is mine, and sound Wisdom: I am understanding, I have strength. By me kings reign and princes decree justice. By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. I love them that love me and those that seek me early shall find me. Riches and honor are with me: yea, durable riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yea, better than the finest gold, and my revenue better than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment, that I may cause those that love me to inherit substance, and I will fill their treasures. YHWH possessed me in the beginning of His Way, before His works of old: I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth: when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills I was brought forth: while as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He set a compass upon the face of the depth, when He established the clouds above, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep, when He gave to the sea His decree that the waters should not pass His commandment, when He appointed the foundations of the earth: then was I by Him, as one brought up with Him, and I was daily His delight; rejoicing always before Him, rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth, and my delights were with the sons of men. Now therefore hearken unto me, O you sons, for blessed are they that keep my ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. Blessed is the man that hears me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whosoever finds me, finds Life, and shall obtain the favor of YHWH. But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Yeshua says, The Logos which you hear is not of me, but contrariwise, it is of the One sending me, the Father. In the beginning was the Memra, and the Memra was with the Elohim, and Elohim was the Memra: the same was in the beginning with the Elohim. All things through him came into being, and outside of him came nothing into being which has come into being. In him was Life, and the Life was the Light of the anthropon men: and the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overtake him. That Light is the true Light which lights every man that enters into the world. There came to be a man sent from Elohim of the name Yochanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light but was sent to bear witness of that Light. The Light was the Truth which lights every man that comes into the world. He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as receive him, to them he gives power to become offspring of Elohim: to them that are faithfully trusting into his name, not those of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but from Elohim having been produced. And the Memra became flesh, and tabernacles among us, but all flesh is not the same flesh: there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, and another of birds, (and therefore doves). There are somata bodies heavenly, and there are somata bodies earthly; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another: if there is a soma psuchikon natural physical body, there is a pneumatikon ethereal body.

At the time when Yochanan was immersing at the Yarden River, and all the people came to be immersed, Yeshua came also from the Galil unto Yochanan at Yarden to be immersed under his name. And being in prayer Yeshua immerses, (for the Immerser is the Witness and lays not a hand upon the one being immersed) and by and by ascending up from the water Yeshua sees the heavens torn and the Spirit of the Holy One descending in somatiko-bodily form as a dove and entering into him: and a voice comes to be from heaven, "You are My Son: This day have I begotten you." And thereupon shone a great light roundabout that place. And Yochanan seeing the great light, and having gone through several plunges of the immersion, prevented him, saying, "Who are you, Master? I have need under your name to be immersed: and you come to me?" And Yeshua answering says unto him, "Allow it for now: for in this manner it is fitting for us to fill up all righteousness." Then Yochanan allowed it. And by and by ascending from the water, behold, the heavens were opened unto him and he saw the Spirit of Elohim descending as if a dove and alighting upon him: and, lo, a voice from the heavens, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight." And the Memra tabernacles in the heart of the man Yeshua, and the Princely Power of the Empire, the Spirit of the Father, remains upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua: Emmanuel.

And at the very least that is three of my forty two sense . . .

What a Beautiful translation of Prov. 8, and the rest. It's like a Symphony of Words, without a beat.........
Because a beat would keep time, but this is without a beat...Beautiful, just beautiful.

2KnowHim said:

Hi Daq, would you do me a favor? I don't know if this applies or not, I don't have the translations you do but since were on the subject of "out of" would you post this scripture in this trans. for me. Especially the word Resurrection in vs. :11
I think if I'm not mistaken it refers to the "OUT" Resurrection and is ONLY here. Thank you my friend.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

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Yes it appears it is "exanastasis" which is only found once and seems to be like "a rising out from", (death, of course, and by the context). You can find more information at the links I will post here with the passage but to give any more than what I do below would be guessing at this point for not having studied this in depth:

Philippians 3:11 W/H 1881
εἴ πως καταντήσω εἰς τὴν ἐξανάστασιν τὴν ἐκ νεκρῶν.
"if by such manner I might arrive to the *ἐξανάστασιν* [rising up out of?] from the dead."
http://biblehub.com/text/philippians/3-11.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/1815.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/exanastasin_1815.htm

I doubt there is anything wrong with how it is rendered in most translations.

2KnowHim said:

There are a couple of things you don't seem to understand here, or either you just don't want to.

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Hello again, I write this in response to you for all others to read on, even if you think you have no more to share. I hope you do, it is in the long haul that we can clearly cover all your errors and verses you try to bring. Every single one of them can be rebuked in your thinking if you try to use them for universalism. I have never seen such a twisting of text and misunderstandings.

I understand what i say and the specific things I correct your words. they are very clear to me. I would never deliberaely just ignore truth if it is presented to me/ I want to know the truth no matter what things I may have believed or not. And in talking with you and other universalist here I see my belief as being even more strengthened. Tjis has beena good thing for me to do for your help and for my strengthening of the truth God has shown me also.

2KnowHim said:

All of us here, once believed everything that "YOU DO RIGHT NOW" but The Spirit of God opened our eyes, and there is NO way that we could possibly go back to your way of thinking.

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W hen you try to draw strength for your error by saying "all of us here". This is false, i could bring most of Christianity to my side in such an argument. Most of the Christian world rejects as heresy your position. Sp to try and bring "all of us here", (speaking of the few that disagree with what I show from scripture) is not right. And you did not believe everything that I do, or you would never have been seduced by a doctrine that draws you away from the truth.

Also, when you say, "there is NO way that we could possibly go back to your way of thinking". Well, some will not change no matter what truth they are shown, that is sad. Its like the Atheist who says " I will never believe in your God every", or the Catholic who says i will never ever stop believing in the catholic churches teachings or the Pope. Or the Mormon who says, I know the truth in the burning of my bosom, and i will never go back.

The truth will make you free and if you are open to the truth you can be made free from your false doctrine as well.

2KnowHim said:

You believe that the wheat and the tares are two separate kind of people, "believers and unbelievers". But their not.They both live and grow together in the same person, in the same soul/life. I understand where you are coming from and this is what is causing you to see everything else, as them and us, or you and them.

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Yes there are.

I know what you are trying to say, and it is a mixed up confusion, taking verses that relate to one thing and mixing them with another.But here are just a few verses to correct you,

"1 Corinthians 6:6
But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers."

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:" This is not believers and unbelievers in the same person. He is talking about actual people.

2 Corinthians 6:14
"46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already," And this is not saying that in us their is an u believer and unbeliever.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Corinthians 7:12
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

and here is as clear as it gets for the person who has not been suduced by doctrines of devils and who is unbiased in their love of truth.

"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" (Matthew 25:31-34 KJV)

God will separate the "NATIONS", not one person between his flesh and Spirit. This is absurd to think that God will separate a person , his soul and flesh and his spirit into different places. Both body and soul shall be cast into fire.

2KnowHim said:

Cain and Able, Jacob and Esau, The twins

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Cain was of the devil and Abel of God as 1 John 3 says. Yes we can see the fleshly man in Cain and the spiritual man in Abel. And yes they are brothers. Types can only go so far. But In Abel, he also had his flesh that needed to be crucified as all believers have done. Cain did not have spiritual life in him, so he as a person will go to the lake of fire if he was lost. The story of Jacob and Esau, again we see two men, but a double type as brothers again. Brothers are from the same man. But the type only goes so far. Yes Jacob disguised himself as his brother and so was in a sense two men in one. But That is as far as we take the type. Both men will stand before God and will wither be with God or not. God will not separate jacob and cast his soul and flesh into hell and his spirit into heaven. This is absurd thinking again and no where justified in scripture.Paul says the old man is crucified with Christ, and believers must live in the new man. So if a person belongs to Christ they have crucified the flesh with its affections and lust.

You may think you have some deep spiritual understanding of these things. But Christians have known about this for centuries regarding the double types of Jacob and Esau and Cain and Able. But they do not go into the error you do. Yes we can use Esau as an example of a sinful man in the flesh and we can draw examples. But neither he nor Jacob will be split in two or three before God and parts sent to different places.

2KnowHim said:

, The one child that was presented to Solomon for a decision,

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No this is not related to your point. It is interesting that you may be saying to divide the child in two. But obviously that was not done. The child was whole in one given to the mother. This would seem to go against your thinking.

2KnowHim said:

, Lazarus and the rich man...etc etc. they are all ONE Person in type, that represent a Pattern of what is within us all that must be severed, purged, and cleansed by fire.

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No this is not what the text means and says. You are twisting it and creating an elaborate fiction to justify your purging in the lake of fire doctrine. All we can draw from lazarus and the rich man about the two natures. is one was righteous in faith and the other was in sin and unbelief. If a believer walks in unbelief and sin they can depart from the living God Hebrews 3. If they abide in faith and righteousness even though their flesh my suffer as the begger, they will be saved. Ib fact we see the suffering of the righteous man in his flesh but his spirit was still saved. This may be a type of how believers suffer in the flesh and yet can still live in righteousness. You confound the scriptures with your interpretation. And when we speak of types, this is all through scripture and I am very familiar with them. But the reality if another issue. The rich man went to flames of fire and horror LITERALLY. I do not believe this is a parable. And the poor man went to paradise in Abrahams bosom, meaning a place of comfort and security.

2KnowHim said:

The two in the bed, the two in the field, one caught up the other left...I could go on and on.

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No that example says one is left and the other taken. Again, speaking of real people, God does not separate a believer into parts and put some in the lake of fire and others in heaven.

2KnowHim said:

And you keep saying that The Lake of fire is a separation from The Lord, but it's not.

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and yet you say in the same section,

"It is a separation of sorts,"

So which is it? You said first it is not, then it is. Hmmm this is the kind of double talk that is classic for cults and false doctrine.

To be separated from the Lord is to live in unbelief. all unbelievers will go to the lake of fire. And men in unbelief are departed from the living God.

"12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

To be "WITH" God and in His presence is fullness of Joy, and those in the lake of fire are in anything but fullness of Joy. They are gone FROM the presence of the Lord

You try to bring this text

"Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

Men can go even to the lake of fire and God is there he sees all things. But read this,

"
Genesis 3:8
And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

Notice they went from the presence of the Lord. yet God was there still and spoke to them. All sinners have God convicting them in their hearts of all sin and if they hear His voice he is not far from every one of us. But to be out of His presence is to be in darkness and lost. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were separated from God and from His presence in their hearts. As all unbelievers are and as all in the lake of fire will be. Yet God sees all things and is everywhere so this is a different issue.

"
Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."

and

"7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."Psalms 139:7

So men can be separated from God and even in the lake of fire and in hell, and Gods presence is there. But

2KnowHim said:

The only things that are tormented here are the things within us "BECAUSE", they are in the Presence of The Lamb and The Holy angels. It is a separation of sorts, But ONLY the things within us that are not of Him. Those things are of the devil and his messengers that we have ALL partaken of at one time or another, they must be cleansed.
The ones that are not HURT by the second death is because they have been walking with Him in The Fire all along, having it done little by little. Letting the fire consume them, so we can share in His Life here and now.
But make no mistake, ALL will have their part in the Lake of fire.

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Make no mistake you are in error here as in many of your words.

The lake of fire is for

"Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

It is not at all for those who are in the Lambs book of life. You are contrary to scripture again as in many places.

You say,"ALL will have their part in the Lake of fire"

But in God's Holy scriptures we read,

"Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

No believer will have a part of this. It is for unbelievers, and abominable etc. You greatly error again.

The fiery trials believers go through in this life, are as gold tried in the fire. It is the trial of their faith here and now. Jesus also has his eyes like a flame of fire and he will search the reigns and hearts as he does. All the quality of the work men do (I speak only of those who have the foundation Jesus Christ) will be saved so as by fire. This is related to our trial of faith here and now also. This says nothing of believers going to the lake of fire.

2KnowHim said:

We are on two different perceptions here,

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I see the truth of God and the things you say clearly for the error they are according to the scriptures. And you do not see it having been confused by such a massive scriptural twisting and error that even basic truths are twisted. Sad to say...

2KnowHim said:

and I see no need to further this convo. You are not going to see the things we do until YOU experience that fire for yourself, and we can't go back, and wouldn't want to anyhow to your way of thinking, we already been there and have come out. All Praise be to The One who sits on The Throne

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again you need to add the "we do" part to try and join hand in hand with others. But

Proverbs 11:21
"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered."

Proverbs 16:5
"Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished."

And you simply chose a doctrine that appeals to the flesh nature of man, a doctrine that says they will never be wailing and nashing of teeth forever and ever because of their evil hearts of unbelief and sin. This is a popular view with sinners.

Imagine an atheist hears your view and he thinks, "Hmm so if i continue in my horrible sin and sexual firnication, theft, lies, drunkenness etc etc, I will still be saved one day ( though not by Jesus, but by some flames in the lake of fire), and he says I will go on doing what I want and ignore all Christianity. if I will be saved one day anyway who cares, "

your false horrible doctrine opens up this to the world and in your false gospel, there is no need to preach the true gospel and warn others of sin and hell and Gods judgement on them, for they can simply say, "what does it matter i will go through some pain and get there eventually.

anyway Lord willing, I will continue to post scriptural corrections to your views all through this thread and anymore that are written if they go against the truth of God. At least for now as I am discussing this matter.

anonymouswho said:

My friend, why do the fearful go to be burned for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal years?

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It doesn't say for trillions of years etc, but forever and ever. You are looking at these things with your own understanding. Gods Holy Character is the reason he is against sin and evil. But because he is both just and loving and merciful, he offers mankind a way to approach Him and that is only in His Son. This is why the gospel is soo important. And why the whole world needs to repent and believe the gospel.

How many times do I hear unbelievers say similar things, How can a loving God send someone to hell? They don't know God and his holy character. And so they make a God out of their own understanding.

anonymouswho said:

If a woman is fearful because her husband abuses her daily, and then one day the man finally kills her, does she deserve eternal torture for her wicked fearfulness?

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This is not the kind of fear the bible speaks of in hell.

Here are a few verses from the true God of the bible. You need to know this God, and His Holy love, justice judgement and character.

"21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."(Isaiah 26:21)


"7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"(2 Thessalonians 1:7,8)

Ezekiel 25:17 - And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."

Nahum 1:2-6 - God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies."

"9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." (Isaiah 13:9)

Exodus 15:7
"And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You; You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff."

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

and so , God is just and loving. If men seek his Justice they will find only that they have sinned and God is fair to judge them. But if they seek his mercy and love they will see that only in Christ through faith in His righteousness can they live.

"23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23)

LoveofTruth said:

So which is it? You said first it is not, then it is. Hmmm this is the kind of double talk that is classic for cults and false doctrine.

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And there he is, The Accuser of The Brethren. This is why I will not give you anymore amunition to fuel the fire with.
Lest you add sin to sin.

God bless you, and keep you, and lay not this charge against you, because I don't.

2KnowHim said:

And there he is, The Accuser of The Brethren. This is why I will not give you anymore amunition to fuel the fire with.
Lest you add sin to sin.

God bless you, and keep you, and lay not this charge against you, because I don't.

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Yet you just accused me, and with harsh words that i am the devil the accuser of men, and I am not your brother, I am a Christian child of God and I believe the true gospel.

I pray the Lord forgive you also and open your understanding and help you to be free from the doctrines of devils

and it is double talk to say one thing and then the other. Yet you avoided this and could simply have said , You were wrong and repented, but you did not.

Believe it or not, I am not your enemy. And I did not respond to "corrections" because you would not understand me anyhow.
Just like you don't understand any of us "on this thread". And when I speak of "we" I speak of those who have been through the fire and have been purged, because they do know what it's like.

But you my friend are still yet to face it, I am not accusing you, but I am addressing the same one that cause The Lord to Rebuke Peter when He called him satan.

For I say to you,....Thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.